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JAR02, Always War Emperor

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    I prefer cats for attack, not defense, because my horses die like flies when attacking towns. But I'm good with HBR first.

    Why do you suppose that Japan didn't settle the 3-cow, 1-game spot?

    I didn't get started last night, when I thought I would, but I should be able to play this afternoon.
     
  2. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    I'd prefer cats before horses, but that's up to the team. We'll want cats to cut down on losses sieging cities, and I think logistically having cats first is simpler. Our barracks-less towns can make cats instead of regular units, and we'll already have some cats at the front by the time we have horsemen ready for a push so we won't have to waste time waiting for cats later nor have a stack of slow units trailing behind our main army.

    I think the Japanese must have popped this southern city from a hut. Otherwise, I'm not sure why they would have passed up the cow spot (unless there are 4 cows over there).
     
  3. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I can only assume that there's a juicy (future) StratRes somewhere near their 'preferred' site.

    I mean, look at Osaka...? Might as well ask why (the hell) they settled there? It could really only have been for the Iron — which they then couldn't muster the Worker-power to hook up... :crazyeye:

    X-post:
    Or this.

    Or (outside possibly) they took it from the Mongols...?

    But why Settle just one town for that food, when you could Settle three...? ;)

    JAR02 Far East, 1000BC.png

    I understand this logic, but I think it's inapplicable in this case.

    Although Japan is in trouble, we are now fighting 2 enemies (possibly soon to be 3 if the Ottos are on our landmass?), and if the Mongols and Japs haven't already fought, then Khan likely still/now has accumulated a decent stack to throw at us, possibly including Horsemen already. But Cats will be (too) slow reaching our current front to deal with that incoming, we still have no decent defenders to keep them from being captured/destroyed when they get there — unless we also build vSpears out of Tenoch (still our only Rax-town...?) — and Cats can't actually kill anything!

    But building them takes shields, and while they're in transit, they're still taking up free-unit slots/ unit-maintenance, that right now I think would be better spent on Archers/ Horses — which can score unit-kills. Sure, once Osaka's Iron is online (in ~25-35T!), then we can start building Swords+Cats to start our advances against (Mongol) cities — while the Archers/Horses that we already built do mop-up duty against injured/lone D=1 enemy units in the open (and take out those last annoying redlined-Spear/ Archer/ Axe-garrisons that we didn't have quite enough Swords to kill...) ;) But until then...

    Basically I'd want (a lot) more towns down, and a complete road from our core to the front, and a trio of Workers to advance it further (and while I'm dreaming, how about a pony!) before we start investing heavily in dedicated bombardment-units.
     
  4. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    I'm on board. Hopefully the Mongols are far enough away we have some more time to prepare.
     
  5. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    We have a lot of company on our island. I've seen pink borders but no units, and we haven't made contact, but the Mongols are on the other side of the pink guys. A curragh sees land to the east - I don't know if it is a different island or not.

    1000 bc push up research slider
    IBT: Kyoto warrior → spearman, Tlatelolco curragh → curragh
    975 bc – Archers go 2/2 at Kyoto, take town and a worker. Move other archers from mountain onto road. Curragh goes north.
    IBT: Byzantines finish SoZ, barb galley kills curragh, barb horse dies to E archer. Resistance ends in Kyoto. J archer advances
    950 bc – Pull chariot back from archer.
    IBT: zzz
    925 bc – Red town is Edo, so Japan built it. I haven't seen any Mongols yes. Avoid J archer.
    IBT: Learn Masonry, start HBR, due in 6.
    900 bc – archer stands on mountain, sees Mongol conscript warrior and pink border.
    IBT: Build some archers, start a settler in Teo.
    875 bc – E archer dies to 2/3 J archer on plains. :( 2nd archer kills it. Chariot disperses barb encampment.
    IBT: archer leaves Edo.
    850 bc – chariot kills barb horse. E archer 4/5 kills J archer. Archers move along.
    IBT: barb galley dies to curragh. Barb horse shows up by our core.
    825 bc – moving archers along.
    IBT: barb horse kills chariot. Mongol archer/settler pair shows up.
    800 bc – Archer kills barb horse. Archers mass by cows. Road south to Kyoto is finished, workers move to other tasks.
    IBT: Mongols advance
    775 bc – vet archer kills Mongol settler pair.
    IBT: J archer kills our archer. Learn HBR, set research to math.
    750 bc – Takes 3 archers to kill the J archer. :( Archer kills barb horse. Rearrange tile assignments.
     

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  6. Judminder

    Judminder Chieftain

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    That J archer was nails!
     
  7. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    Had a look at the save.

    I don't think we have evidence that The Ottomans are on our continent. But there are pink borders north of the one Japanese city, edo. So we're gonna be fighting here for a while.

    Are we sure this is an archi? It could be an 80% water continents.

    We could clean most of this up with swords and horses. I think speed takes priority here for now. But our cities without barracks should build catapults once we have the tech.
     
  8. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    FTFY? ;)
    IIRC, the only suggestion that this might be an Archi-map was made in the very early stages, when we saw how little space we had around our cap. But the scraggly shape does indeed suggest an 80%-water map, and with (at least) 4 Civs now confirmed spawned on this landmass at Standard-size, you're most likely right that this is Continents — though it could also be Pan as well (no, I didn't check this in CAII yet).

    In some ways I'd prefer Continents. Our exploring Curraghs could safely contact/DoW the AI-Civs on the next landmass(es), to distract them from Settler-/ infrastructure-builds and cheapen our research, while still minimising the number of enemy-units we might have to face at any one time. Conquering our own Continent early enough would also give us some breathing-space to consolidate and build up to MilTrad/Cavs before we attack overseas in earnest. OTOH, on a Standard Pan, we could possibly win this game using only Swords/Horses (or Maces/Knights at the latest).

    I wonder if PinkCiv might be China? (@jarred!, was Cultural-linkage switched on?) Well, guess I/we'll be finding out soon...

    Also occurs to me to ask: Is it worth building a Jag or two (to trigger our GA) at any point? And if so, when? While we still have a reasonably good chance of encountering D=1 units in the open (there's not much high-defence terrain near the current front...), or should we rather wait until we're running a non-Despotic gov (Monarchy?) — which could still take a while? Or if nothing else, Jags are pretty good for pillaging enemy roads/ resource-tiles.

    Will DL the save later, though may not have time to play until Saturday.
     
  9. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    I had to look back about cultural linked starts, I usually play with them off.
    (I fixed an autocorrect error: are>after)

    Could also be Arabs, French or Inca, Arabs are the same culture group as the Japanese and Mongols too (Asian), right?
    Last game we checked the space race screen to see our opponents, anyone think we need to?
     
  10. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Re: catapults, I 1. agree that we should build them in the 'lesser' cities that don't warrant 'raxes, but 2. want to warn against focusing on them too early! We need a respectable SoD in order to protect them; I'd say at least 3 Spears and 4 attackers to anchor the stack.

    Re: map, I don't think the exact setting matters too much; either way, our plan is clear: Keep exploring with 4 Curraghs (2 in each direction to allow for strait-hopping), keep building more settlers whenever we can (this is a really food-poor start), and smash whoever gets too close to Kyoto.

    Re: jags, I'd prefer to build half a dozen of them when we're getting ready for Monarchy, then trigger our GA once we change govts. A Despotic GA feels like a waste.
     
  11. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    Culturally linked starts is bugged, it biases in favor of civs in the American group. So it'd be more likely to be the Incans. The pink isn't the light pink of China/Arabs, so it's not likely to be them.

    I agree a slightly later GA is best. Although ideally we want to trigger it when we're still fighting, to maximize the gains from improved production.

    It could be a Pangea, but I've never seen pangea's cross the y axis. Still, I've seen 80% water Pang's be solely in the right half of the map, so it's possible.
     
  12. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    No, Arabia is in the 'Middle Eastern' group.

    'Asian' = Japan, China, India (from Vanilla), Mongolia and Korea (added in PtW).

    Got the save, will take a look/post any plan that occurs to me later on today.

    EDIT:

    Sorry guys, I was laid up most of yesterday evening with nasty back pain, so I didn't get on the computer and open the save until today. I have just done so, and MM'd a little (e.g. switched Tlat to a Horse in 6T, will build a Worker afterwards, after it reaches Pop5), LUX% could be zeroed, so Maths is now due in 10T.

    Plans:

    Eastern Curragh will go east, then north -- pretty sure that Marsh-tile we can see is the northeast end of our continent, so we can scout out the Mongols'(?) homeland. Western Curragh will do a suicide-run into the west, OK?

    I'll send the Archer-stack to attack Edo in 3-4T. Since Osaka fell about 10T ago, this should give Edo enough time to pop its borders and acquire a second citz, and also allow the lagging Archers to catch up. I can't imagine there's much of a garrison in there, and it also looks to be on the east coast, so controlling it should mean we will then only need to watch for units coming from the north.

    It's almost inevitable that we'll contact PinkCiv sometime during my set, whether we wish to or not. So the Archers will stay near Edo to guard it from them and Khan, while the new Horses ride down from Tenoch/Tlat. Then everyone will start north if it's safe to do so.

    Once Kyoto finishes its Spear, I'll start a Rax and send the rWarrior to the southern Mountain to keep that area defogged (until we can get a Settler down there) and free up the Chariot to move forwards. (Also, we're likely to see Barb-uprisings starting soon, so keeping the areas behind our front Barb-free would be helpful...).

    Any thoughts/preferences where I should send Teo's next Settler? Now the Japs are nearly gone, do we still want/need to ICS our core (i.e. continue to use CKS' dotmap), or should we think about doing something else?

    CKS's GreenDot 'wasted' one of our few Forest tiles, so I'd rather not do that if it can be avoided (unless we could usefully chop it first?). I was thinking, if we're going to move the PaleBlueDot down to the Fish-Plains anyway, then founding on the landlocked Grass ESE of Teo would still leave us CKS's OrangeDot on the SW Jungle-peninsula, if we wanted it.

    Alternatively, once the Worker's done mining the Wines, then (roading the BGrass and) founding on the Jungle 4SE of Tenoch, would give our core-towns a lot more potential land-tiles/shields later (although not until we have Constuction/Ducts).

    I'll play later this evening if there's been some feedback(/pushback!) before then, otherwise tomorrow...
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  13. Judminder

    Judminder Chieftain

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    Hope you're feeling ok @tjs282 - I am running your pain in parallel. Why does it take so long to improve?! Anyway, take it easy.
     
  14. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Thanks for the good wishes, but it only lasted that day. I think it was due to slumping into a cinema-seat (third row from the front) and craning backwards to see the screen for 3 hours on Thursday night.

    Anyway, here at long last is my set (thanks for your patience!). First, the log:
    Spoiler :
    T 0, 750 BC
    Zero LUX%, 100% SCI%, Osaka's citz Geeked, for Maths in 9T (Income = -3 gpt, Treasury = 74g)
    Change Tlat's Settler to a Horse (6T)
    MM Teo so that Settler completes at Pop5 instead of Pop4
    IBT
    Zzzzz...

    T 1, 730 BC
    e+vArchers sent S/W
    Edo has popped, v+eArchers on Hill sentried
    Southern Workers can't reach unroaded Grass in 1T, so begin mining Plains ready for the Fish-town
    ECurragh goes east, finds Mongol and more PinkCiv borders (still no contact with PinkCiv)
    WCurragh sent west on suicide-run
    IBT
    Tenoch --> Horse (5T, Pop6 in 2T)

    T 2, 710 BC
    vHorse sent to the front
    Slaves to unroaded Grass
    ECurragh goes north to avoid PinkCiv a little longer
    WCurragh into the blue
    IBT
    Kyoto --> Rax (10T)

    T 3, 690 BC
    NWorker 2S to mine roaded Grass
    eArcher finds Barb-camp 4SE of Kyoto!
    rSpear sent to guard him, hope the Chariot 3SE will decoy the 2nd barb...
    East Curragh finds PinkCiv borders north of Ulanbataar as well!
    And Inca Settler+Spear-pair appear on Mountain north of Archer-stack...
    Incas are only up CB (but their Dyes await us...). Pacha is given the bad news
    IBT
    WCurragh sinks!
    Settler-pair goes after our Slave!
    Barb2 goes for our road

    T 4, 670 BC
    vHorse smashes Barb-camp for 25g, eArcher kills 2nd barb (3/5 HP)
    vArcher kicks Incan a$$, takes names Slaves
    Slave on BGrass is 2T from finishing, so new Slaves sent to road Hill (currently 9T to finish) and unroaded Cow
    SWorkers north to mine newly roaded Grass near Tex
    GAME SAVED
    Archer-stack re-Sentried
    EastCurragh flees north from Barb-Galley
    Spear back to Kyoto, Axe south to watch Mountains, Chariot east
    IBT
    Barb-Galley attacks and is sunk
    Tenoch riots at Pop6 because I wasn't paying attention
    Teo hit by disease! (Dammit: 1T to Settler...)
    Tex --> Horse (10T, Pop3 in 1T)

    T 5, 650 BC
    vArcher north to Mountain
    Archer-Stack east to Edo
    East Curragh turns west round Iron-island(?)
    LUX% to 10% to restore order in Tenoch, Maths still in 4T (-4gpt, Treasury = 84g)
    IBT
    Teo --> Curragh (8T, because disease+ Settler has now reduced it to Pop1 for another 4T :mad: )
    Tlat --> Settler (8T, Pop5 in 3T)
    Barb-Horse appears near Edo's Iron-Mountain!

    T 6, 630 BC
    Chariot defeats Barb-Horse, and promoted! (4/5)
    Settler sent south to Fish-Plains (2T to arrival)
    (North)Eastern Curragh discovers uninhabited(?) island with Horse and Goody Hut
    Edo attacked:
    2 rSpears killed, both vArchers promoted (2/5, 3/5), town (+6g) is ours! --> Spear (20T, Pop2 in 10T)
    And the Japanese are dead!
    v+eArchers sent north towards Inca-town, because Edo will receive reinforcements soon
    Edo's Coast is salty, but this still isn't the end of our island: there are twice-popped (yellow) borders further east! (So it must be a capital -- but cannot be Mongols, since these borders are yellow, not mustard)
    (Looks like the way there lies southwards, through the Tundra)
    MM Tenoch for less overrun, give the SPT to Tlat instead (Settler now in 5T)
    IBT
    Tenoch --> Horse (4T)

    T 7, 610 BC
    vArcher arrives on Hill overlooking Vilcas (still Pop1, despite Wheat), vHorse and v+eArchers will join him next turn
    Injured eArchers (will be) garrisoned to heal in Edo
    Chariot explores along southern coast
    Kyoto's Rax-build switched to (native) Worker (now 1T) for hooking up our Iron
    IBT
    Inca Archer departs Vilcas (good, one less defneder to kill...)
    Kyoto -->Worker (5T, Pop3 in 5T)

    T 8, 590 BC
    vArcher fortified near Vilcas, reinforced by other Archers: with any luck, the Incas will run onto flat land to avoid us...
    vHorses continue S/E
    Tlax founded --> Warrior (10T, Pop2 in 10T)
    KyotoWorker to Osaka's Hill
    SCI% reduced, Maths in 1T
    GAME SAVED
    IBT
    Incan Archer runs away north!
    We learn Maths --> CB (4T at 90% SCI% and -4 gpt)

    T 9, 570 BC
    NorthernWorker to unimproved Wines (roads and mines here will let us give Tenoch's less valuable tiles away to the neighbours)
    Kyoto Worker begins road (6T)
    Hors+Archer stack to Mounatin above Vilcas
    Chariot discovers barb-village due South of Edo, and confirms(?) no direct land-connection to YellowCiv
    healed eArchers therefore sent north from Edo
    IBT
    2 Archers run north out of Vilcas! They must be at war with the Mongols!

    T 10, 550 BC
    Vilcas just grew, but is on a Hill with a vSpear garrison, so I don't attack yet: the additional eArchers + vHorses will arrive soon
    Northern Slaves sent to slow-road Banana-Jungles for later clearance
    Chariot destroys Barb-camp for 25g
    GAME SAVED
    TLDR:

    The Japs are dead, and we are now also/instead at war with the Incans -- but they also appear to be fighting the Mongols, which is good for us, since the Mongols have to go through them to reach us (this might have been what triggered the war, if Pacha told Khan to leave or DoW when he sent his troops south).

    We have a stack poised to take/raze Vilcas, but they are waiting for reinforcements from the south, since the town is on a Hill and guarded by at least one vSpear, and if the Incas collapse, we are going to need a good strong stack of units to hold to hold the Mountain range to the north against the Mongol hordes. (I hate building towns directly adjacent to Mountains that enemies can reach easily!)

    We have also located (but not yet contacted) a fifth Civ (Yellow), across the water east of Edo, and discovered what seems to be an uninhabited island north of us (northwest of Mongolia/Incas). We will need MapMaking to reach/colonise it though.
    Spoiler Known world south :
    JAR02 Known World south 550 BC.png
    Spoiler Known world north :
    JAR02 Known World north 550 BC.png
    Our core is set to finish its current builds (Curragh, Horse, Settler) in 1-2T with no overrun :smug: We need to decide what to do with that Settler (see the edit to my previous post -- which only Judminder appears to have read so far!) :nono: ;)

    I have one Worker roading towards Osaka's Iron, the others are improving tiles in the core, the Slaves are mostly completing the road towards Edo/Incaland. The Slaves on the bananas are there to build roads, to allow the Workers to stack-clear the Jungle, so our Settler-pump doesn't get hit by disease so often... (grrr!)

    We have learned Maths, and I put us on CB since it was already known by Mongolia and Inca (and Japan), so we could learn it fast (and it's a step towards Monarchy). It will be done in 3T more at 90% SCI% -- remember to minimise SCI% on the last turn for a TAX% windfall to recoup (some of) that deficit.

    Writing would be my next pick (towards Mapmaking/Harbours/Galleys), but maybe we'd rather have Construction/Ducts...?

    Save is below...
     

    Attached Files:

  15. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    Looks like archi based on the images you posted, so I think MM would be our best bet.
     
  16. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Good job, tjs282.

    So far, this is the sort of always war game that isn't too nerve-wracking.

    I'm good with either settling plan. (By the way, I'll not generally see edits, so a new post would be more helpful if you want me to comment.) My tech vote is for writing.
     
  17. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I'd say continue settling - green, then orange from the dotmap
     
  18. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I still think it's 80% Continents, because an 80% Archi-map usually wouldn't have its islands sufficiently close that they'd join up to each other, and give this many Civs (4 or possibly 5 so far) contact overland. I'm guessing at this stage that our Continent ;) is shaped something like an 'S' lying on its back, with us at one end of it, and either the Mongols or YellowCiv at the other. Once the Curragh has sailed round the island and back to our mainland, it can then explore the Incan/Mongol coast to confirm/deny.

    Even if the map is technically an Archi, with 2 Civs still to kill on our landmass, we can still treat it like Continents for our purposes: while we can send troops overland, sailing is not a priority until the sailing-distance is much shorter than the galloping-distance (i.e. until we've captured/ founded a town -- in Incaland? -- directly across the water from our core).

    That said, since most of our towns are going to be coastal by necessity, Maps/Harbours would certainly be useful for the extra seafood.
    What, you're not checking this thread obsessively on a daily basis...? ;)
    Yes, this is what I think we should discuss.

    I planted LBlueDot further south, per my Osaka dotmap, so Texcoco (= CKS's RedDot) now has exclusive Grass-tiles to its SW, and CKS's dotmap (which left Orange 1 short of 6 land-tiles) could now be usefully revised, to reassign some of the now-available tiles NE of Tex (and eventually give Tenoch more land as well, once our coastal towns all have Harbours).

    e.g. Green could be moved 1SW to the BGrass (retains coastal access, but blocks us from mining the BGrass for 2 shields), or 2SW to the Grass (landlocked); or if Green stays where it is, Orange could be moved 1W (distance 5[.5] from Tenoch) or W-SW (distance 6 from Tenoch, as it is now).
     
  19. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Oh, I think I get what you mean now.

    I can't properly dotmap right now, but I think moving both Green Dot (1SW) and Orange Dot (1W) would work. Those positions are both still coastal, and they allow both new cities 6 land tiles (the dotmap I referenced shows green taking a fog spot that turned out to be a coastal tile).

    Other thoughts:

    * Explorer Curraghs should focus on going overseas. It's better to avoid meeting other AIs on our landmass until after the Incans are gone, if possible.
    * Settlers settlers settlers! We need more cities. I'd like to keep a trickle of reinforcements going, but we should be expanding into Old Japan ASAP. Planning for new Settlers to pop when towns hit size 4 will help with this.
    * Research - we should talk about when to get Monarchy. Losing the tile penalty will help with settlers *and* rush raxes in new conquests.
     
  20. Judminder

    Judminder Chieftain

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    All sounds sensible. Would the team like to continue pushing onwards with the SOD or stop advancing after taking the Incan city? We're going to get thin pretty quickly.
    I agree that we should explore further afield with the boats for now.
    I should have a window of opportunity either tomorrow night or Wednesday night depending on when I get this initial batch of work done. After that there will be a brief lull before I have a huge amount on my hands and may require skip/s - but lets cross that bridge when we come to it.

    In terms of plans I'll concentrate on what's been discussed above (settling the Green (1SW) and Orange (1W) if / when we get chance to so do).
     

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