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JAR03: Portugal, DG, Space Race

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    2. @tjs282
    3. @CKS

    The roster is still open!

    As discussed, this is a Large spacerace as Portugal at demigod level, with 9 scientific opponents.

    Start A:
    A.png
    Start B:
    B.png
    Start C:
    C.png
    Start D:
    D.png
     

    Attached Files:

    • A.SAV
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    • B.SAV
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    • C.SAV
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    • D.SAV
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  2. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    D is a good start, there are 2 cows in the fog to the north. B is probably the worst, due to the desert.

    I'll be visiting my family in Michigan for the last week of August, I should be able to keep up with the game but won't be able play turns then.

    Edit: I think D is best. Opening moves: move scout 1N,1NE then probably move the settler 1NW to settle and the worker 1N to road and mine and then to a cow to irrigate and road, then the other cow to mine and road.
    I don't think any of the other starts allow for a despotic 4 turn settler factory with the tiles in view.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  3. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Did you use MapFinder to ensure a river, or did you just re-roll until you got 4 river starts? ;)

    My thoughts:

    Start A: Nope. Way north, stuck on the end of a tiny peninsula, and no visible reources: we can really only expand inland/southwards. If we were to choose it though, I'd move the Settler 1E to free up the River-Grass on the western point for a CxC'd (distance 3) 1st-ringer.

    Start B: Yeah, Desert starts always look pretty bad, but irrigated Floods give 3 FPT even in Despot, and we'll have at least 4 of those, so the cap will grow at +4FPT under Despot: building a Gran might actually make growth unmanageably fast once we go to Republic! (I'd move 1NW to found, though, to get more land tiles in the initial BFC). And provided we mined everything else, we would still get around 2 FPT + 1 SPT per tile on average (under Despot). OK, still not really Settler-farm-worthy, but I would suggest that we wouldn't want to do that with our cap anyway, because shrinking it regularly will significantly reduce our commerce-output during the early phase. Also being more equatorial than the other 3 starts, we should have expansion possibilities north, west (upriver), and south (provided that Hill/Mountain-range is narrow!). Having at least 2 Incense straight off the bat is nice, too...

    Start C: Actually looks quite interesting, because it's in the inner curve of a bay. Though we would have to move the Settler (1NE) off the Cow before founding, we might be able to get 3/4 of a 1st ring (i.e. 5-6 towns at distance 4-ish, Cx(x)xC) without too much trouble. Also looks like the coast trends east-west, so we should still have some good land even in the 2nd-ring towns (those that we can found before the AI-Civs beat us to all the nice sites, anyway!).

    Start D: A Fish and 2 Cows (if we move the Settler 1NW) is very tempting, but really only useful if we can share some of that bounty with another town (or lock ourselves down to pumping Settlers out of our cap; see above for my objection). And in terms of global positioning, this one's also not much better than A: compare the minimaps, there may not be much room to the north of us even for our 1st-ringers, before we hit useless Tundra.

    So I think I'll be contrary and vote "C" here. Leaving @CKS to cast the deciding vote... ;)
     
  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Do barbarians exist? If not, there's probably plenty enough reason to lock the capital down to settlers and workers for a while.
     
  5. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    No barbs. We could also use city#2 for settlers, instead of the capital.
    A grassy coastline north of the tundra zone would be nice, too.

    It is weird all the starts are on rivers, the climate is even normal instead of wet.

    Do we think we'll be able to get the full republic slingshot? Only the byzzies and us start with the alphabet, but a less risky play like getting lit instead might be smarter (for us) to try.
     
  6. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Well, I don't like A or B - I hate flood plains starts, and out on a tiny peninsula isn't great, either.

    Both C and D are nice, and both require moving the settler. Both also are far from the equator.

    I like D better because it has hills rather than mountains. (I do like C's grassland along the river, though.) I would use the capital as a settler pump until we have no place to settle and then as a worker pump until we have plenty, so D looks good for that. This is a large map, so all of our early towns are going to be relatively uncorrupt. Using the capital rather than a nearby town won't make a lot of difference, commerce-wise, especially since we'll be working cows that aren't on the river.

    Anyway, I vote for D.

    With no huts, I think it is worth going for the slingshot. However, if we're not first to writing by a goodly margin, we can always do philosophy before code of laws. Depending on our tolerance for risk, we can either take lit for free or wait with a turn to go and see if someone learns CoL for us.
     
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  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I think I agree with CKS on all counts.
     
  8. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Fair enough, Start D it is, then.

    Let us roll, o Fearless Leader... ;)
    I think we should definitely aim for the sling, even if we don't quite make it. Republic seems too valuable for a Space-race, to delay its acquisition any longer than we absolutely have to. Even if we're mostly not self-researching in the Ancient Age (see below), we'll want the bonus-commerce to convert to LUX% (to keep our folks happy) and TAX% to buy techs/ pay off the AIs/ support our military (if all else fails!).
    'Dora might start with Alph, but she still 'thinks' like an AI, so will likely 'prioritise' one or more of the 1st-tier techs (including IronWorking as an honorary 1st-tier tech here, since she starts with Bronze) which give her new stuff to build, over boooorrring old Embassies — especially while she hasn't even met anyone else yet!
    Sorry but not following this? Why go for Lit as the freebie rather than CoL? As trade bait?

    Or are you thinking to go for the GLib (again) and then just accumulate cash until we get CoL from it, so we can research Republic at major deficit?
     
  9. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    I think CKS is suggesting we stop research with one turn left on philosophy and wait for an AI to research CoL for us, then we finish the last turn of research.

    I am not familiar with how fast the tech pace will be. Writing>philosophy>literature (free)>code of laws (trade?)>republic could be faster than writing>code of laws>philosophy>republic, if republic isn't free. I'd prefer to go for the full slingshot if we'll have a competitive chance, I just don't have any experience here.
     
  10. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Yes, this is correct. However, it is risky.

    The reason we might take lit is to build libraries ASAP, so that researching CoL and Republic goes faster. I wouldn't use it as trade bait (as sometimes the AI won't learn lit until really late and the lack of libraries hurts them), nor do I want to build the GLib (since we should be able to keep up pretty well by trading). If we decide to go this route, we should prebuild them wherever it makes sense to do so.

    Just as a reminder, the Greeks and the Koreans also start with Alphabet. However, since everyone starts with bronze working, I expect most of them will start on iron working first and we can push hard on writing.
     
  11. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    I might be able to play the first set tonight, if y'all are ok with the opening worker moves I posted above:
    Unless we should be roading first? I think writing will take ~50 turns regardless.

    Getting lit first sounds fun, I don't think I've ever tried that strategy out. It could give us a nice boost if we can get libs up in high commerce towns (cities maybe? If we can manage the happiness). Throwing shields at library pre-builds instead of workers, granaries or scouts/curraghs is the trade off though.
     
  12. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Go for it. You might check on how many beakers we need for writing, to see if we can knock any turns off. Even a few turns may be worth it when going for the slingshot, but if it isn't plausible to make some progress, we should save the cash.
     
  13. Judminder

    Judminder Chieftain

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    Good luck folks :)
     
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  14. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    Writing costs 366 beakers, over 7 beakers per turn

    Turn 0 4000BC:
    Scout 1N1NE to the hill, worker to the bonus grassland 1N, settler 1NW

    Turn 1 3950BC:
    found Lisbon
    set production to curragh

    scout runs up another hill and spots tundra to the north
    worker roads

    Turn 2 3900BC:
    total extent of tundra in the area is 4 tiles

    Turn 3 3850BC:

    Turn 4 3800BC:
    I've been working the cow, so I move the worker to it, instead of mining the BG first. They're on the same side of the river.

    Turn 5 3750BC:

    Turn 6 3700BC:

    Turn 7 3650BC:

    Turn 8 3600BC:
    Curragh completes in Lisbon, start production on scout
    Bump up lux rate for the new citizen

    Turn 9 3550BC:
    Meet the Russians, they have 10g and Bronze Working

    Turn 10 3500BC:

    Turn 11 3450BC:

    Turn 12 3400BC:
    scout completes in Lisbon, set production to warrior
    worker goes back to and begins mining the bonus grassland

    Turn 13 3350BC:
    Lisbon grows to size 3, lux goes up again

    Turn 14 3300BC:

    Turn 15 3250BC:
    Warrior completes (use as MP), set porduction to second curragh
    drop lux back to 10%

    Turn 16 3200BC:

    Turn 17 3150BC:
    Lisbon grows to size 4, lux up tp 20%

    Turn 18 3100BC:
    curragh completes, set production to settler

    Turn 19 3050BC:
    Meet the Greeks, they only have BW and 10g (3 towns)

    Turn 20 3000BC:
    Meet the Byzantines, they have BW, WC and 10g (3 towns)

    Notes:
    Production was curragh, scout, warrior, curragh, ??? Queue is set to settler because there are some nice food bonuses around, granary first would keep us at a higher average population (higher commerce), though.

    Russians are immediately south along the coastline, and the Greeks are immediately east. The Byzantines are to the south of the Russians. No extra space for us! There is a one tile choke south of Moscow the Russians are already blockading, but it seems to be a bay that got closed off into a lake, not an isthmus.
     

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  15. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    My math was wrong, since we're playing with 10 players, not 12. I think the real cost of writing was 305 breakers (366*5/6), over 6 breakers per turn to research in less than 50 turns.
     
  16. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Well, to get writing in less than 31 turns from now, we need 12 beakers per turn, 11 won't do it, so I think the 366 was correct.

    I think we have some good land to grab. I'm inclined to go settler first to grab the wines and then build a granary in Lisbon and a settler in town 2 (after a warrior or two), then settlers in Lisbon until we can't take any more land.

    What do people think about trading Alphabet to the Russians? They'll give us BW plus a worker plus 10 g. We could also buy Masonry instead, but I'm tempted by the worker. Since both the Greeks and the Byzantines have alphabet, they'll trade soon, especially since only the Russians have masonry.

    Pottery will get us BW from the Greeks or the Byzantines; to get warrior code we need to throw in all of our cash and all of our cash per turn.
     
  17. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    Jeez, civs in the game only effect the cost when greater than 0 civs know a tech, so it is 366 (365.7). The equation, when the tech is known by no one, is:
    Total Cost = (Tech Rate * Raw Cost) / Difficulty Modifier
    = (320*8)/7

    I was setting up systems of equations to determine if I made the wrong choice by researching at minimum rate:
    x1+x2+...+xn = T; number of turns spent researching at a specific rate
    Ax1+Bx2+Cx3+...+nxn = W; sum of research rate times turns spent at that rate equals total breakers gained.

    Simply, x+y=49; x is turns at 1bpt, we know this to be 20. Y=29
    Ax +By=366; B is our only unknown, the tech rate we would need to research at in order to finish writing in less than 50, ie 49, turns.
    (1*20)+(29*B)=366; B=11.9, so 12 bpt.
    Which agrees with your statement above.

    I could have bumped up research earlier, and I think right now we can achieve 7bpt. But I think I would have needed to work the high commerce tiles, like the bgs on the river and the fish, to really make a difference. This would have lowered both our food surplus and shield output. Not that I thought you were critiquing me, but I was obsessing about it as well, which is probably obvious ;).

    If we're ok with buying their workers, then that would be a nice boost. We might as well get what we can for alphabet, since it will be useless soon enough.
     
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  18. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Well, if we lose philosophy by a turn, we'll know we made the wrong choice, but at this point I'm confident that the min run was the right choice. Having extra cash when we start our next tech lets us run a deficit, so we can learn the next tech faster.
     
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  19. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    Haha! Don't say that to me!

    Do we want to try to block the Russians from settling north too fast? Like build our wines town on the lake?
     
  20. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    If only the Russians have Masonry so far, wouldn't it be better to take that rather than Bronze, and then sell it on to Dora/Alex for WarCode and/or Bronze? We might even then be able to sell WC back to Cathy for her Worker?

    If we can't get both WC and Bronze, then WC (Archers) seems like a better option than Bronze (Spears)? When the DG-AIs come knocking, we certainly don't want to be fighting them with Axes. And we should also aim to meet whoever sold WC to Dora (no barbs, right? So she didn't pop a hut for it)...
    With 4T to the Settler, we certainly should discuss where we hope to plant our (1st-ring) towns already: for example, we could grab the Wines by Settling way down south by the lake, but I think that's too far away from the cap for an initial plant -- in terms of corruption, defensibility, but also how many turns our (unescorted!) Settler will have to walk to get there.

    We could also get the Wines from the coastal Grass 3SE of Lisbon (=extra commerce in the town-tile, cheap Harbour for Seafood), or from the riverside Grass 2ESE (=extra commerce on most tiles, no Duct needed). Obviously the latter seems preferable (to me) from an 'expansion' PoV, but may block off potential sites that we would rather keep available. So we could probably do with a dotmap. Speaking of which...

    @jarred! Are we going to play following the order in Post #1 -- i.e. I'm up next (I DL'd the save to have a look at it, so this could be a provisional gottit) -- or would you rather have the more experienced DG/Deity player play now?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019

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