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JAR03: Portugal, DG, Space Race

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    I posted that order because it's a different order than how we played last game. With CKS as the only player who has a DG (and Sid!) victory, the two of us will have to play back to back one way or another.

    Edit, I was working on a dotmap as well, but haven't really finished. I was eyeing the spot on the river as the wine town too, the southern lake spot was just an off the cuff suggestion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  2. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Sooo... How about this?

    jar03 dotmap 3000bc.png

    I've prioritised sites to give access to freshwater and/or food-bonuses and/or Coast and/or on Hills (for defence), and numbers 1-3 show my suggested order of founding the 1st-ringers. Stars mark chokes that we should aim to control if possible.

    Current Town1 is CxxC (dist.=4.0) from Lisbon, but could instead go on the Hill 1NW (CxC, distance 3) if you both prefer: although it then wouldn't get a Wine under its immediate control, putting it there would leave 2 tiles distance to the 2nd-ring Hill-Town to the east (on the Mountain-chain). Once those 3 towns are down, they can each then immediately build a Settler themselves for the next town(s) outwards, while Lisbon builds Axes/Archers/Spears to protect/happy them all.

    I haven't food-mapped for 24 FPT, so we could probably pack more towns in that area, but I'd rather grab the land even if we can't work it all at Pop12. We're going for Space, after all, so Sanitation/Hospitals are conceivably in our future (if we last that long!) ;)
     
  3. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    Later, it could be worth adding a town to the north, on the tundra, to grab that whales resource. Having it work water tiles wouldn't crowd things on your map too badly.

    I like the tight spacing, we can always thin things out later if we want to.

    And maybe another town on the southern cape for the whales as well?
     
  4. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    I like the dot map, but I would settle town 2 later. If we don't grow toward the AI, we won't have a chance to settle those towns. We can fill in to the north slightly later.

    PS The Sid victory is just a matter of restarting until you get everyone on their own island so the AI drown in unit support.
     
  5. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Hmm... actually looked a little loose to me! ;)

    But as you say, there's certainly room for more. I wouldn't prioritise Whaling stations though: in my limited experience, sacrificing potential access to (a lot of) land-tiles just for (eventual) access to a Whale is rarely worth doing, at least shield-wise (obviously commerce is a different matter).

    That said, the southern Hill might well be a good 2nd-ring option. We could/should/would then move the coastal Lake choke-town 1SE...
    That thought did occur to me, too -- but only after I'd already done the rest of the annotations, and I didn't really want to start over ;) I really only picked that one as No.2 because it grabbed the Fish (so would give us another 2 FPT tile even before we built a Harbour).

    What do you both think about No.1 though? As marked, or rather on the Hill?

    (I was thinking that the eastern Hill-town could maybe be a good FP-town later? it's on a River, will eventually have lots of shields available, but is still close enough to Lisbon that we could hand-build quickly if need be; and we would also still be free to disband no.1 after Sanitation, if we needed its tiles for Lisbon and FP-town)
     
  6. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    I like 1 where it is, so that it gets the wines without a cultural expansion. On a hill would be nice, but we don't have cheap culture buildings, and I'd like the lux sooner rather than later.

    There really isn't any need for sanitation, but we can rearrange towns as needed later. Once we've filled the land we can grab, we can put in the whaling towns (north and south of Lisbon, on the tundra and on the hill) and they'll give us unit support and commerce, but that is for much later.
     
  7. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Spoiler Turnlog :
    T 0, 3000 BC
    Buy Masonry from Cathy for Alph+12g
    Sell Masonry to Dora for WC+10g
    Sell Masonry to Alex for Bronze+10g
    Sell WC to Cathy for Worker+22g
    We now have 111 g, still up Pots+WC on Greece, and Pots vs. Byz
    New Worker sent SE, to build road to Town1
    IBT
    Greeks found Corinth

    T 1, 2950 BC
    Scouts and Cuuraghs continue east (Greece) and south (Russia/Byz)
    LUX% = 30% to keep Lisbon happy
    IBT

    T 2, 2900 BC
    Worker begins mining Cow (6T)
    Eastern Scout meets Greek borders, climbs Mountain to look further, sees Hoplite+Warrior pair...
    IBT
    Lisbon --> Gran (12T, Pop5 in 4T)

    T 3, 2850 BC
    Settler departs for Town1-site
    Southern Scout finds Moscow: it has 4 Wheat in its BFC!
    LUX% back to 10%
    Dora knows IronWork already! But we can't afford it :(
    IBT
    Cathy complains about our Scout

    T 4, 2800 BC
    Scout continues south
    IBT

    T 5, 2750 BC
    Settler arrives
    IBT

    T 6, 2710 BC
    Oporto founded --> Warrior (10T, Pop2 in 10T)
    Eastern Scout finds Greek coast, turns south
    Southern Scout climbs Volcano, spots 1-tile isthmus connecting our 'island' to Byzantium
    IBT
    Russians found Yaroslavl next to land-bridge, right under a Volcano
    Alex know knows IronWork as well!

    T 7, 2670 BC
    Slave moves to BGrass
    Alex wants more for IronWork than Dora does, so she gets Pots+80g
    There's Iron on a Mountain ESE of Oporto!
    Lisbon switched from Gran to Settler (due in 1T)
    IBT
    Lisbon --> Gran (15T, Pop3 in 1T)
    Byzzies begin Colossus (in Co'ple)

    T 8, 2630 BC
    Slave begins road
    Settler sent to found Town3 site , per 'instructions' to expand east first
    Eastern Scout and northern Curragh confirm that we have almost finished mapping Greece
    IBT
    Greeks begin Pyramids (in Athens)
    Byzzies now know CB!

    T 9, 2590 BC
    Worker begins mining Grass
    LUX% down to 10%. Should have done that earlier
    Curragh finds island(?) to the east of Greece
    IBT

    T 10, 2550 BC
    Settler arrives
    Curragh sails SE past island-chain(?)
    Handover:

    We have a Settler ready to found our third town: Lisbon could be switched to building another Settler (it would grow to Pop4 just as it hits 30 shields), but I think it should get its Gran built first (by the time that's done, all the needed tiles should be roaded+mined for Settler-pumping at Pop5-7 ish). I would suggest not chopping the nearby Forest, so we can keep using it for the IBT-shields-on-growth (until we have some Hills mined instead).

    Oporto is building a Warrior for MP, but could build a Worker instead if that's more important. Town3 could build Curraghs, or Axes/Archers (I think we should start massing units. The AIs are still expanding, but may run out of space soon; see below).

    Our explorers have shown that we are sharing an 'island' with Russia and Greece, which is connected by a single Jungle-tile to the 'island' where the Byzzies and their neighbour(s?) live; the Russians control that choke already (at least until the nearby Volcano erupts!), so the northern Scout doesn't need to go further south: he could swing back up through the still-fogged section S/E of Corinth, before disbanding himself into a useful build.

    We haven't met the Byzzies' neighbour(s) yet: our southern Scout is about to cross the choke to look for them (if the Russians move their damn Spear!), and the southern Curragh continues mapping the Byzzie-island coastline. The northern Curragh is investigating a possible island-hop to the next landmass.

    There is an Iron-source on a Mountain near Oporto, which prompted me to revise the dotmap slightly. I moved the mooted FP-town east of the Mountain-chain (but still on a river) so as to 'protect' that Iron from Greece:

    jar03 new eastern plan 2550 bc.png

    The save is below
     

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  8. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Looking good.

    My plan:
    Finish the granary in Lisbon, then start a settler to go just east of the iron.
    I'd like to move the settler one step south before settling, so that it has 4 BG in its inner 9 tiles instead of 1. Then I'd want a warrior, a barracks, and then units from it.
    Oporto can finish its warrior and then build another worker before going back to a couple of MP warriors.
    Have the curraghs continue exploring. The southern scout can wait a bit to see if the choke opens up. The northern scout can finish exploring the interior.
     
  9. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    We meet Germany and find horses. The granary in Lisbon is done, and the settler will finish this IBT. It should go settle by the iron, and the next one should go to the southern pink dot between the lake and the coast (which turns out to be a horse tile), because this will keep the horses from the Russians.

    Turn 0, 2550:
    Switch Oporto citizen to BG until Lisbon grows.
    IBT: Russia asks us to move.
    Turn 1, 2510:
    Scouts and curraghs move. Move settler 1 tile south.
    IBT: ZZZ
    Turn 2, 2470:
    Settle Guimaraes, start a warrior. Scouts and curraghs move.
    IBT: Lisbon grows.
    Turn 3, 2430:
    Adjust Lisbon to granary in 4, growth in 5, bump up lux slider. Explore.
    Turn 4, 2390:
    Explore. Worker finishes road, moves to wines.
    Turn 5, 2350:
    Explore. Worker roads, other worker mines. See Blue borders along the southern edge of the continent.
    Turn 6, 2310:
    Explore. Meet Germany. They are kind of backward. Trade them pottery + 20 g for CB. Trade CB+WC to Greece for The Wheel + 10 g. We have horses.
    IBT: Finish granary in Lisbon, start settler. Warrior in Guim, start barracks.
    Turn 7, 2270:
    Explore.
    IBT: Lisbon grows, Oporto finishes worker, starts warrior for MP.
    Turn 8, 2230:
    Raise lux tax. Worker helps mine. Explore.
    Turn 9, 2190:
    Explore. Worker goes to horses.
    Turn 10, 2150:
    Explore. Southern curragh sees island. Worker roads.



    2150Map.png
     

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  10. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Wha...? The Greeks totally ignored that yummy Floodplains-Wheat SW of Thermopylae, to plant Knossos there, of all places? Dammit :mad:

    We should close off our section of the island ASAP, before Alex and Cathy mess up my dotmap even further... ;)
    Might it be better to do it the other way round?

    Provided he micromanages Lisbon properly for 4T-Settlers ;) @jarred!'s going to get 3 Settlers to dispose of during his set: Settler1 on this IBT (Turn 0), Settler2 on Turn 4, and Settler3 on Turn 8.

    The Iron is still relatively safe from the Greeks, because Alex likely won't plant CxxC from Corinth (although he might go for the Hill SE of Oporto, WNW of Corinth, between the Wines and the Cow — which would still be fine from our PoV). Conversely, those southern Horses are perfectly placed at CxxxxC from the closest Russian town, so you just know Cathy's going to be eye-ing that tile — and without any roads in place (we need more Workers!) it will take our Settler 7T to get there from Lisbon. So waiting until after the Iron is Settled would give Cathy 11T grace to grab those Horses.

    So maybe Settler1 should rather go towards the southern Horses first? If Cathy does beat us to that site, that's OK because we want a town built there anyway (and we can think about taking it off her after it reaches Pop2 — and once we have some Swords!) — and Settler1 could instead be diverted to the Hill NE of the Lake, to close off the border there (and also dissuade Alex from the Wines+Cow Hill-site).

    Then we send Settler2 to the Iron. The Slave should have the Wines-road done by then (it should then road SW to Guim), allowing the Worker (currently mining near Oporto) to move to and road the BGrass towards the Iron, in turn allowing Settler2 to arrive at its intended destination almost as soon as Settler1.

    And then Settler3 could maybe go to the coastal Hill 5NW of Knossos? If we planted there, then the Greeks might lose interest in our section altogether (or they'll plant a Tundra-town on the northern corner which we can capture and/or raze later).
     
  11. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Either order works for me. I was thinking of roading toward Guim with the current workers, but roading both directions works, too, and we can get one segment of road built for the second settler. I'm good with sending settler 3 as suggested.
     
  12. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    It looks like the difference between settling is 3 turns, if neither of you think the timing will be an issue, I'll settle the horse first.
    Lisbon will keep building settlers, the only mm being swapping to 2fpt tiles after growth. Guim will build a barracks during my set, and Porto will pop out a few more warriors, including another MP for Lisbon. Do we want Porto building a worker after it grows to pop2?

    Looks like everyone will have wines, and there aren't any other luxes on our peninsula. It'd be nice to grab horses before the Russians can get to it, but we won't really have anyone to trade the excess to. There might only be 2 sources of iron on the 'island.'

    Writing will come in after my set, looks like we're at tech parity, but have more cash than the AI
     
  13. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Oporto should build workers when it can.
    If we can keep the Russians or anyone else from having horses, that'd be great - then they'll only have slow movers when they attack us. We might disconnect one horse resource once we have both of them, so that they can't demand horses from us.
     
  14. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    Greeks learned writing on turn 8, so I traded for it and for the rest of the known techs (myst and math), which included trading writing to the byz (faux pas?). I went with philo to research next.

    We founded Lagos and Emerita, Lagos (on the horses) is building a rax, and Emerita (next to the iron) is building a cat as a placeholder. The third settler is being escorted by a warrior to the hill nw of knossos. Maybe we want another rax in Emerita? So the outer towns build military while our core is building settlers/workers.

    Turn 0, 2550BC:

    IBT:
    Russian warrior is exploring around Lisbon

    Turn 1, 2110BC:
    Lisbon: settler>settler
    MM Lisbon back to 5fpt excess, drop lux to 10%

    slave moves SW to road towards Guim
    native worker heads to BG 2SE of Oporto to road to Iron
    settler heads towards horse tile south of Guim

    northern scout explores around athens, southern scout waits. Curraghs explore

    IBT:

    Turn 2, 2070BC:
    Lisbon grows and gets mm'd
    Guim grows to size 2 (+2fpt, +2spt, third shield is corrupt)
    lux up to 20%

    Oporto: warrior>warrior
    warrior accompanies settler to horse-spot
    workers begin roading

    Curragh near germany hops across to another island
    Curragh near isthmus spots another Iron between Smyrna (byz) and Yaroslavl' (rus)

    IBT:

    Turn 3, 2030BC:
    Byz learn Math, Greeks learn Mysticism. We don't have enough cash to get Math, and the greeks want all our g and gpt for mysticism. Mysticism costs half of Math, so I don't think trading the greeks and then the byz will work out.

    curraghs move, settler pair advances south

    IBT:
    Volcano by Yaroslavl' is active

    Turn 4, 1990BC:
    trade situation hasn't improved

    settler pair passes guim
    curraghs move

    IBT:

    Turn 5, 1950BC:
    Lisbon: settler>settler
    settler heads to iron spot
    lux to 20%

    worker finishes roading the river BG and moves to the iron tile
    Oporto warrior heads to defend worker

    Germans have myst and math now, costs haven't come down

    IBT:
    Volcano erupts, no cool damage to the russians :(

    Turn 6, 1910BC:
    Oporto: warrior>worker
    settler reaches horses tile

    lux up to 20%

    worker finishes roading to horses near Lisbon, heads to grassland to improve

    IBT:
    Russia demands 31g, I give in to their demand

    Turn 7, 1870BC:
    settle Lagos, on the horses tile, just as a russian settler spear pair arrives on the scene
    set Lagos to build a rax

    settler2 heads east
    slave worker finishes wine road, heads SW towards guim

    IBT:

    Turn 8, 1830BC:
    settler2 reaches spot by the iron

    worker begins roading grassland 2SE of Lisbon

    greeks learn writing
    trade 4gpt and 246g for writing
    call up byz, get math and 110 gold for writing
    call up greeks, trade math for myst and 246g
    call up russia, trade math for 95g

    we're at parity with byz, russians and greeks, and up writing to the germans
    set research to philosphy @80%, due in 16@-5gpt. treasury is 451g

    IBT:

    Turn 9, 1790BC:
    Lisbon: settler>settler
    settler heads to hill 5NW of Knossos (oporto warrior goes with)
    drop lux to 10%, sci up to 90%

    settle Emerita, set production to catapult (place holder)

    IBT:
    Russians found Smolensk cxxc from Lagos

    Turn 10, 1750BC:
    oporto: worker>warrior
    lux up to 20%
     

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  15. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    Since Oporto has been collecting an odd number of shields, it's been convenient to let Lisbon work the roaded/mined river bg at size 6, so lux rate doesn't have to be raised. The laborer from Oporto can work a roaded, soon to be mined, wines for that turn.
     
  16. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Looks good. Sounds like the southern settler was just in time!
     
  17. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    Yeah, literally beat the Russians by one turn.
     
  18. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I suppose it's too much to hope that Cathy put Smolensk where we wanted it...? ;)
    Good work! No, I think handing Writing to the Byzzies was the right move; with the AIs knowing multiple different Tier-2 techs, it's better to get one of them and then trade it around for the others (as you did) rather than letting the 'lucky' AI reap those benefits.

    With Maths + Writing + Myst known, the AIs will likely go for HbR (cheapest/ last unknown Tier-2 tech?), or MapMaking (loadsa stuff to build), before they try for Philo/Poly (1 GW each). But these are DG-AIs, so they will be faster than us, so I also agree that going straight for Philo ourselves was/is sensible.

    Assuming we're first, is it still the plan to grab Lit and then go for CoL —> Rep at deficit while building Libs (one at a time!)? We don't really need Courthouses yet, but we now have several towns which can (eventually!) reach Pop12 without a Duct (i.e. potentially high CPT), so prioritising Libs in those towns would boost our research.
    See above: Emerita's on a river (or it should be!), so a Gran+Lib might be preferable there (especially if it's later going to be our FP-town): there's lots of Forest to chop for both, if we have a Worker available to do it. A Lib should also reduce the flip-risk, if we can pop our borders faster than Alex can pop his...

    That said, I agree we do need some (more) military, because the wars are likely to start soon. So our Rax-town(s?) can build vWarriors (if the Iron is still unhooked?) and/or vArchers (if/after Iron is hooked), and/or vChariots for upgrading (while someone learns HbR for us), and/or vSpears for guarding the border-towns, especially the ones near Greece. We could/should maybe also station a Cat or two in those towns (don't fancy our chances attacking Archer-stacks guarded by uninjured Hoplites), but non-Rax towns can build those.

    I would say, though, don't build Swords unless/until we want to start expanding aggressively against the Greeks.

    If we get DoW'd by someone, my inclination would be to try and ally with the other(s) (I prefer to use GPT for this), and let them beat each other up on our behalf (and also waste the Greeks' and/or Byzzies' GA, while they're still Despotic). We will need Embassies to do that, though, so OK to spend some of our gold-pile setting those up?

    (Hey, if Alex DoWs us, we could even sell our Iron to Cathy for the MA and let her blunt her Swords vs. Hoplites, rather than ours!)

    DL-ing the save now, will likely play on Friday, if that's OK? (The wife will be up to Hamburg to visit an old school-friend)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  19. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    Truth be told, I don't really remember where they founded Smolensk. I think it's in the hills surrounded by forest and mountains, east of Lagos, fairly food-poor currently. It will probably need to be resettled.

    I was thinking we grab lit as our free tech, since it's the most expensive. Maybe we use granaries as pre-builds for libs? I agree that we can wait on the CHs for the time being.

    There's a worker roading to Emerita, so he can chop. Not sure if a CH first there would speed up the FP build enough to make it worthwhile?

    Also, we're currently roading the iron, but it can be stopped before completion or pillaged to facilitate a (not so) mass upgrade.

    I thought Russia was shaping up to be in our first conflict, but it might be better to align with them and try to weaken the Greeks, as you say.

    Don't worry about waiting a few days, I certainly won't be able to play every turn the first day that I'm up, either. And just a reminder, I won't be able to play any turns next week as I'll be traveling.
     
  20. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I have the save open in CAII right now: it's 2N1NE of Novgorod, and 1S2SE of where I wanted to put the lakeside town on the Hill at the intersection of the Mountain-ranges. So although Smolensk kind of fits in with my CxxC pattern, it's still not a great position. I was rather eyeing the BG 3SW of Corinth, inside the curve of the river, as our next town-site in that vicinity.
    I'd rather go after Russia first as well, but even though Cathy got a lot of Wheat, Alex needs to do much less to improve his total land, and appears to be expanding faster.
    Hmmm... Given it's on a Mountain, I think I'd rather get the Iron roaded, and pillage the BG near Oporto if we want to do disco-reco Warrior-upgrades.
    I don't think we'll need a CH before we're ready to (pre)build the FP. We're on a Large map, and Em is 'only' distance 9 from Lisbon: once we're a Republic, that's comfortably 2nd-ring (CAII is already reporting 'only' 35% corruption, under Despot).
     

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