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JAR03: Portugal, DG, Space Race

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone(cold)fish

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    OK, done. There's good news, and more good news...
    Spoiler :
    T 0, 1750 BC
    Emer: Cat switched to Gran
    IBT

    T 1, 1725 BC
    Worker finishes road near Lisbon, moved 1S towards Guim/Lagos
    IBT

    T 2, 1700 BC
    Southeastern island now mapped, so Curragh sent north to explore uncharted Oceans...
    Worker begins roading Grass to Guim
    Guim MM'd for more CPT (less SPT) to avoid riot at Pop3
    IBT
    Dora demands 40g (10% of our Treasury)! Her units can't reach us overland, so I'm inclined to tell her to piss off -- but we also can't yet fight an amphibious landing, so I fold
    Russian Settler-pair heads north near Oporto!
    Lisbon --> Wealth (to get Settler-pump to run Pop5-7 for more CPT)

    T 3, 1675 BC
    New Settler will close the Lake-Hill choke
    Southeastern Curragh spots Sea to the east...
    IBT
    Bismarck complains about our Curragh
    Oporto --> Barracks (Iron will be online soon)
    Russians begin Pyramids! And Oracle!
    Byzzies begin Oracle!

    T 4, 1650 BC
    Curragh sails NE, spots Orange borders (Ottos?)
    Lisbon MM'd for Settler in 5T (=4T with IBT-shields)
    IBT

    T 5, 1625 BC
    Sagres built on our north coast --> Worker
    Curragh sent SE to seek safer crossing for the second
    Ozzie contacted: he's up Poly, but down Alph + IW: he pays 120 g (out of 124 g) for Alph!
    Poly still too expensive for my taste, though: Maths + IW + 490 g -- nearly all we have! -- is getting close, but leaves us no cash for deficit-research (Ozzie wants Writing + Maths + 120g, but I don't want to sell him Writing)
    With that windfall, I check current Embassy prices:
    Greece = 37g
    Germany = 85 g(!)
    Russia = 35 g
    Ottos = 79 g
    Byzzies = 63 g
    ...and set up in Co'ple, Athens, and Moscow (=135 g total)

    jar03 co'ple 1625 bc.png

    jar03 athens 1625 bc.png

    jar03 moscow 1625 bc.png

    Second Currragh crosses to SE island
    GAME SAVED
    IBT
    Russian Settler heads south again
    Guim --> Archer (7T, Pop4 in 6T)
    Ottos begin ToA!
    Second Curragh sinks (dammit)
    Germans + Byzzies know HbR!

    T 6, 1600 BC
    MM Lisbon for Pop7 + Settler in 2T
    Slave sent to road north towards Sagres
    Workers near Guim roading S/W
    Worker moves to Forest near Emer
    IBT
    Russia DoWs Greece! EX-cellent!
    Greek Settler-pair heads towards Emer
    Lisbon --> Settler

    T 7, 1575 BC
    Settler sent towards Cow+Game Hill NNE of Oporto
    IBT
    Ottos have learned Maths
    Greeks + Russians running around

    T 8, 1550 BC
    Coimbra founded --> Warrior (10T, Pop2 in 10T)
    IBT
    Greeks + Russians running around

    T 9, 1525 BC
    Nothing new
    IBT
    Greeks + Russians running around

    T 10, 1500 BC
    Settler arrives on Hill
    Curragh sees red borders (Babs?)
    GAME SAVED
    Handover

    I planted 2 more towns on this set, and we are about to settle a third. I have been running Lisbon at Pop5-7 and LUX%=20%, which worked with minimal readjustment (just moving the new citizen from the Forest to the roaded Grass on growth). Possibly I could have extracted more CPT running it at Pop4-6 (with LUX%=10% at Pop4), but minimising complexity made it easier for me to keep track between interruptions.

    I would suggest that the next bunch of Settlers found according to this:

    JAR03 dotmap 1500 BC.png

    ... though Town3 could be settled before Town2 if you prefer. Town? feels a little cramped, but is a fallback possibility if the (much better) Town4 site is not a practical option. With any luck it will be, though: the Greeks and Russians are now at war (perfect for us!), so Smolensk (still at Pop1 after >10T) may well be razed shortly.

    Although the Germans and Byzzies both have Iron hooked, neither Russia nor Greece do yet. So if we can get a road over to Novgorod quick enough (chop a Forest the other side of Lagos, then road the Grasslands), we may be able to draw out their fight -- and waste Alex's GA -- by selling Iron to Cathy.

    Doing this would also allow us to continue to build vWarriors for upgrading (after we get the Iron back), without having to disconnect it. We should have plenty of cash for upgrades (if we want it), because we are now only 3T from Philo, with no sign yet that anyone else is going for it. Tech-wise, we are still at parity with Russia + Greece, Germans + Byzzies are up HbR, and Ottos are up Poly, but down Writing.

    jar03 known world 1500 bc.png

    We are also about to meet the Babs(?), on the Ottos' continent. If Ozzie has already sold Poly to Hammi, that may make it affordable enough for trading to Dora, possibly even distracting her into building ToA for us (Athens is now about 2T from finishing the Pyramids, so the first cascade will happen soon)

    Save is attached.
     

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  2. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Sounds great!

    What do we want to do about philosophy?
    We could take literature and build libraries and then research CoL and Rep ourselves. We'd probably be able to buy CoL before we finished it, but maybe not.
    We could take CoL and research Rep ourselves, then revolt and learn lit.
    We could trade for poly and take Monarchy.
    We could delay learning philosophy and hope to trade for CoL before someone else learns it.
    I'm not much of a risk taker, so my inclination is to take lit for free if no one learns CoL for us in the next couple of turns.

    I'm good with selling Russia iron if we can do it while they are at war with Greece. I'm ambivalent about the Byzantines building the ToA, because I expect it would be expired before we own it, and I'd be happy with them not acquiring more culture. I'd make the poly - HBR trade anyway, though.

    Jarred, if you want to swap and play a set of turns before you go out of town, that would be fine with me. Otherwise, I'll be able to play in a couple of days. I twisted my foot tripping off the sidewalk this morning and I'm not up to serious thinking right now or sitting at my civ computer. It doesn't appear to be broken, but it is pretty unhappy right now.
     
  3. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Sorry about your foot CKS! We left yesterday morning, so I'm already gone :).

    I think learning philosophy and getting lit for free is a sure bet, anything else, not so much. If CoL becomes available before we learn philosophy, then in that case I think the republic is the better option as our free tech.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  4. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone(cold)fish

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    Ouch. Wish you a speedy recovery.
    Absolutely we should grab CoL if we can, before we get the freebie-tech (which should then definitely be Republic!).

    However, I don't think we'll get CoL from the AIs anytime soon. Based on what I've seen, I think they're busy doing HbR/ Poly/ Mapmaking*/ Construction(/ Philo?) right now. So (assuming we win the Philo-race) I agree that Lit is still our best bet for the freebie.
    Spoiler * :
    I've just now realised that I made at least one error of judgement in my set: I didn't need to cave to Dora's extortion. CAII wasn't/isn't showing Mapmaking as tradeable, and I haven't seen any (barb-)Galleys, so (with the Russians still blocking the choke) she couldn't have invaded us at all.

    Hope we won't need that 40g bone I threw her...
    If we're running high-SCI% anyway, we might as well boost it with Libs, which will help us learn CoL faster, and Courthouses in the outliers will boost CPT (and also shields to build up our military), speeding our research to Republic.

    Lit is also good for trade/payoffs -- and if Ozzie, Hammi, or one of their still-uncontacted neighbours demand it with menaces, we might even get some free War-Happiness out of it when we tell them to go jump!

    Once the above towns are planted, we won't need any more Settlers for the time being, so Lisbon could maybe build our first Lib. We could maybe pass the irrigated Cow to Fisherman's Hill (="Colina do Pescador", according to GoogleTranslate!) to pump Workers for us?

    If (Sid forbid!) we lose the Philo-race, then it might be best to research Lit at max-SCI% anyway, for the same reasons as above.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  5. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Don't sweat that 40g, and I agree with all of your ideas!
     
  6. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    I've started playing, though I haven't gotten very far. I hope to finish tomorrow.
     
  7. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    The tech situation:
    We are the tech leader. We took Lit as our free tech. CoL is due in 14 turns at 60%; we could crank it up to 80%, losing 21 gpt, to get CoL in 9 turns if we want. (We are paying 18 gpt to Russia for 14 more turns.) Nobody else knows Lit. There are basically 3 groups of AI. The Greeks and Russians are down HBR and poly. The Byzantines and Germans are down MM and poly. The Ottomans are up construction (learned this turn) and down Philosophy and MM and the Babs are farther behind the Ottomans. I don't understand why the Byzantines aren't trading with the Russians.

    The Germans and the Greeks have workers for sale and the Russians and Greeks have cash. I don't think we should give the Byzantines MM, though, so I don't want to trade MM to the Germans for their worker. Likewise, I'm leery of giving HBR to the Greeks. We can buy construction from the Ottomans, but it might be better to wait for the price to come down.

    Three AI remain unmet.

    Wars:
    Russia and Greece are still at war. They've not made any progress against each other. I gave philosophy away when Greece demanded it to keep us out of war, as our military is pitiful.

    Land:
    We can squeeze in a few more towns if we want, but there isn't a lot of space left. How comfortable are people with squeezing in tight with the AI?

    Turn 0, 1500:
    Things look good.
    IBT: Russia boots us. Athens finishes the pyramids.

    Turn 1, 1475:
    Greece have MM. Emerita worker roads. Build Leiria. Coimbra worker roads. Scout was sent south, so it explores there. Northern scout watches Russians from a mountain. We don't meet the red guys.
    IBT: Learn Philosophy, nobody has CoL so take Lit for free. Start CoL. Settler completes.

    Turn 2, 1450:
    Meet Babs, they have nothing and are down writing and math. Settler to hill by fish. No good trades available.
    IBT: Guim. Archer to worker.

    Turn 3, 1425:
    Build Evora, start worker. Switch Oporto to lib.
    IBT: Alex demands philosophy. I give it to him, as we have one archer!

    Turn 4, 1400:
    Trade Philosophy + 18 gpt to Russians for MM (gpt to keep us safe from Russia). Trade philosophy to Byzantines for HBR + 83 g. Trade writing + HBR to Ottomans for polytheism. Sci to 60%.
    IBT: Sagres worker to worker.

    Turn 5, 1375:
    ZZZ
    IBT: Lisbon settler to settler, Guim worker to horse, Leiria warrior to worker. Babs finish oracle, Byz finish Mausoleum.

    Turn 6, 1350:
    Workers work, settler heads toward dot 3.
    IBT: ZZZ

    Turn 7, 1325:
    Same.
    IBT: ZZZ

    Turn 8, 1300:
    Sell philosophy to Germany for worker + 13 g. Mine at Guim, road toward Russia.
    IBT: Emerita granary to worker.

    Turn 9, 1275:
    Build Braga on dot 3. Give game to Oporto.
    IBT: Lisbon settler to settler.

    Turn 10, 1250:
    Moved settler towards the south, headed for dot 4, dot ?, or the southern whale town, depending on what looks best when we get closer.
     

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  8. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone(cold)fish

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    Excellent work getting us into the tech lead already! No worries with throwing gold to Cathy, or Philo to Alex (just a pity he demanded it before you sold it around, but better to keep him sweet than have Hoplites on our doorstep before we're ready for them).

    Idle speculation: if Germany had Workers for sale, might that mean that Bismarck is fighting Dora as well? The only time I regularly see AI-Workers for sale is when they've run away from a war. Would also explain general backwardness in the southern half of our continent...

    If all my suggested spots are taken (or will be soon), is it time to start building up infrastructure, rather than expanding our borders further outwards? The more commerce we can rake in (and the more Libs we can build!), the quicker we'll get to Republic (and the more monaaaaay we can get from the AIs for old techs, to fund further research on new ones!).

    Or, while we're still waiting on Republic, and have 4 free units per town, should we start building up militarily (Swords + Horses +... Archers?), and (once our payments to her have finished, obviously) start piling in on Cathy as well?

    I mean, we're going to need her and Alex's territory for core-towns and beaker-farming at some point in the future, and she has all that Wheat going begging, and only Spears to defend it with. Plus, I'd rather fight Hops with Sword-Armies (and/or Maces) than just Swords, but our guys will need some practice first, if they're going to give us any MGLs...
     
  9. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Since the Greeks didn't trade philosophy around, it didn't really cost us much.
    The Byzantines and Germans aren't at war (we have an embassy, so we know). I suspect the worker is just passing through.
    Building a military and attacking Russia soon is a good idea.
     
  10. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Got it. I don't really like site #4, being pressured by corinth and smolensk. I'd prefer to settler the southern whales spot and site #2 before we stop settling.
    I can have 1-2 towns build libraries while we start to build some military. 14 turns left until we can fight the russians.
     
  11. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone(cold)fish

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    Yes, Site4 will be pressured initially (until it builds a Lib), but it has many advantages: a Cow, a River (i.e. no Duct needed for Pop7+ — unlike Corinth!), and it deprives Alex of at least 1 source of Horses. If we fully irrigate its Grassland, it can also grow fast to Pop6+ (once we're a Republic).

    Site 4 is also still (marginally) closer to Lisbon (dist. = 10) than it is to both Athens (dist.=12) and Moscow (dist.=11), so flips shouldn't be a major issue, provided we put a decent garrison in it (which we would have to do anyway, if we're going to DoW Cathy).

    With respect to Russian pressure on its southern border, Smolensk can/will be demolished once we go to war with Russia (if the Greeks haven't done it for us already by then, since it's still at Pop1 and unpopped!).

    But if you're still not convinced, then I would rather you settled the "?" site than the Whales (see below)
    Site2, sure, but the southern Whales-Hill I think should be a low priority: we haven't put up our FP yet, so founding on the Whales-Hill will increase rank-corruption in all the towns further out (Lagos, Coimbra, Emerita, Braga, Sagres, Site2), possibly 1-shielding the outermost (Lagos, Em and/or Sagres).

    Although that site does offer a lot of potential (coastal) CPT, it will also need a lot of infrastructural investment to achieve that, which would have to be built using whatever SPT we can scrape together without impingeing too badly on productivity in Guim/Lagos:
    — a Harbour (30s) to reach Pop6 without stealing FPT from Guim/Lagos
    — a Duct (100s) to exceed Pop6
    — a Lib (80s) to expand its borders allowing us to access the Whales, and (eventually) rake in Pop12-worth of water-based CPT (for conversion to beakers)

    So I'm really not convinced it's worth it (at this point) — maybe after we're a Republic and can cash-rush, and/or have our FP up, though...?
    I wouldn't build more than 1 Lib at a time, and I'd prioritise the watered towns: once Oporto's done, maybe Lisbon (we won't need many more Settlers for now), then Emerita, then maybe Coimbra (though that should probably rather build units/Workers for now -- but maybe not rSpears...?).

    Oporto could also build a Rax and units, if we're going for a military buildup.

    Evora will also have uncorrupted (coastal) commerce, but I think we'd be better off building a Harbour (and boats?) out of it for now, before we think about giving it a Lib.
     
  12. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Coimbra was building a warrior, but when iron was connected, it couldn't any more. I swapped it to a spear because I'd rather a reg spear than a reg sword. I'd also be happy to swap it to something else if we can supply some military from elsewhere. A library in Coimbra would get us the cows; I think one in Emerita will not because of the Greek tile in between.
    I'd like a library in Lisbon next. We're doing well on beakers there. Emerita doesn't have much commerce, but a border expansion would here would be welcome. This is where we are thinking to put the FP, right? It'll grow to work a bunch of tiles, so we'll get a bunch of beakers eventually.
    I'm for building a harbor and some boats (if our curraghs sink before the harbor is done) in Evora before a library, but a library would be nice.
     
  13. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Sounds good, I should be able to play the set tonight.
     
  14. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Russinans found 1NW of site #2, and our settler is on location. Where should we send him instead?
     

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  15. CKS

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    It is a long walk, but if ? and 4 are already settled, I'd send him to the hill 2 S of our coastal town on the lake. Alternatively, I could live with either of the whale fishing villages or with keeping him around where he is for a while and then settling on our spot once we go to war with Russia and raze Khavarovsk.
     
  16. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone(cold)fish

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    Oof, that's irritating! Though bloody typical of the Civ3 AI, Settling crappy spots that will never amount to anything for it... :shake:

    Since Khabarosk can now be counted as 'our' de facto Site2, we should move the Settler south again (will take 2T to get on a road, but that can't be helped). I don't think it's worth planting another (ICS'd) town anywhere in that section, including on the Tundra 2SW of Khab: the same reasons why I'm opposed to the Whale-Hill SW of Guim, apply even more strongly here.

    It might be worth switching Leiria's Gran* to a Lib, though, to grab those Grass-tiles for us, and hence prevent Khab from growing at +2 FPT before it gets a Harbour built (full-price for Russia, i.e. 48 shields, so probably 30-40 turns).
    Spoiler *Per Justanick's recommendation :
    If any town — other than the capital — will need a Duct to reach Pop7, then it doesn't (also) get a Gran in the early game!
    My preferred Settlement-priority hasn't changed, though: if there isn't already another Settler en route that way, then Site4 (or Site"?") would be my pick, or (if there is a Settler already heading that way) maybe consider simply joining those 2 pop-points into Oporto (if its Lib is now done?) — or Evora.

    Ah, cross-post with CKS:

    I like the Hill 2S of Lagos as well, though it will take quite a long time to get there from Site2...
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  17. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    This is turn 8 of my set, and site 2 has already been settled so site ? it is.

    Otto's traded construction to the Germans and byzzies so we were able to get it from the Germans for cheap. I used poly to get construction so I then traded poly away to those who needed it for a little cash. Code of Laws is due this ibt, which leaves us with the republic and currency (and monarchy) to finish out the era. And we're still tech leaders.

    I'll swap the build in Leira, you told me I could only build one lib at a time ;). I favored a gran there because of the cow and the game.
     
  18. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Fairly uneventful, the Russians and the Greeks are back at peace, doesn't seem like either did much damage to the other.

    Turn 0, 1250 BC:
    I make no trades and I don't adjust sci slider

    IBT:
    We watch the Russians and the Greeks fight

    Turn 1, 1225 BC:
    Leira: worker>granary

    IBT:
    Russians and Greeks make peace

    Turn 2, 1200 BC:
    just some troop movements

    IBT:

    Turn 3, 1175 BC:
    Guim: Horseman>Horseman
    Lagos: Rax>spear
    Evora: worker>Harbor

    IBT:

    Turn 4, 1150 BC:
    Lisbon: settler>library
    Emerita: worker>archer

    settler heads to site 2

    IBT:

    Turn 5, 1125 BC:
    Oporto: Lib>Rax
    Sagres: worker>Rax

    settler reaches site 4

    trade poly to the germans for construction and 2g
    trade poly to the byz for 32g
    trade poly to the babs for 67g
    turn up sci to 80%, CoL due in 5 turns

    IBT:

    Turn 6, 1100 BC:
    found Faro at site 4
    Faro:spear

    IBT:
    Greeks fortify an archer adjacent to Faro

    Turn 7, 1075 BC:
    settler reaches site 2, spies a russian settler pair that was dropped by a galley

    IBT:
    Greeks learn CoL

    Turn 8, 1050 BC:
    Coimbra: spear>archer

    send settler back south

    IBT:
    learn CoL, set research on the republic @80% due in 30

    Turn 9, 1025 BC:
    Braga: warrior>rax
    bump up lux to 30% due to Lisbon growing to size 7

    IBT:

    Turn 10, 1000 BC:
    ...
     

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  19. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Looks good.
    Let's get another MP in Lisbon so we can drop the lux slider. If we move a warrior from Leiria to Oporto and a warrior from Oporto to Lisbon this turn, we can drop the lux slider to 10% and up the science to 90%. We'd need to hire a clown in Lisbon (but it doesn't affect the library build time) and a scientist in Lagos. This drops 10 turns off our time to the Republic.

    Russia has construction. The Greeks don't, but they have lots of cash and are at peace with Russia. I think we should sell construction to the Greeks.
     
  20. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I probably should have tried something other than just bumping up the lux slider. Do we want to slow growth in Lisbon (give a cow to Evora (?)) to help with happiness, until we can commandeer some more luxes?
     

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