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JAR03: Portugal, DG, Space Race

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Was this a guess?

    Because the sea-routes (that we can see) are still too long (and Oceanic) for the Ottos/ Germans/ Byzzies to have risked sending Galleys to meet each other yet, and it also doesn't seem very likely that there are any shorter crossings to/from the northern/ western coast of Ottomania (OK, we haven't explored it yet, but we can't see any Sea beyond the Ocean from the eastern coast of our continent). No-one's built the GLight yet, either (though Alex is going for it).

    It seems more likely (to me) that Dora learned Construction first on our Continent, and then either sold it to Cathy, or her learning it made it cheap enough that Cathy could finish it quickly. Because even if Bismarck was researching it as well, he certainly has crappier land (and hence a less well-developed nation/economy) than both Dora and Cathy do.
    Fair point :lol:

    (That was before Cathy interfered with my dotmap, though! With a town on Site2, we wouldn't have needed any Culture in Leira to grab all the Grass)
    All good ideas, have done so.

    Alex gave us (nearly) all his gold (397g at handover) for Construction (he would also have paid that for Lit, but I'd rather sell the more well-known tech -- and you never know, someone might do Currency for us while we're doing Republic).

    Would really like to buy some Spices from him too (for GPT), to keep him friendly and drop our LUX%. But for some reason the pRNG has only given him one source... :rolleyes:

    (I gottit, just FTR!)
    Clowning the 7th citz in Lisbon is enough in itself to reduce the growth-speed to more manageable levels.

    Lisbon still needs the Cow for at least 1T to keep the Lib-build at 3T (9 SPT for 25 shields in total), but I was thinking to move Lisbon's citz to the Horse-Hill (for slightly more CPT) and give the Cow to Evora, because it can then use that FPT+SPT more efficiently than Lisbon would.

    Commandeering Luxes looks like it may be problematic, though: a Large map with 9 Civs, but only 8 Lux-resources, means they're going to be spread thin. Apart from our (and Alex's) Wines, and Alex's single Spice-tile (under Delphi), no-one else on our continent seems to have any other Luxes even hooked yet! The Ottos and Babs (of course) have a glut (Furs, Silks, Incense), but we can't get those until we've learned Navi/Magnets.

    (Even though Navi's an optional tech, since we can get it much earlier than Magnets, and it would allow us to import some/all of those Luxes in exchange for our Wines, it might actually be worth going for it ourselves -- even though this is contrary to SOP for a science game. Or at least, ensuring that someone -- maybe Dora? -- can research it quickly for us, by feeding them Astro as soon as we get it).
     
  2. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Made a few M-M-mistakes, but we're still (mostly) tech-leader...
    Spoiler :
    T 0, 1000 BC
    MPs shuffled back to Lisbon, SCI% to 90% (LUX% = 10%)
    Clown in Lisbon, Geek in Lagos, Rep now in 25T
    Construction sold to Greece for 395g
    IBT
    Hammi complains about our Curragh

    T 1, 975 BC
    Workers stacked to mine BGrass near Evora (3T) and Lagos (now 1T)
    IBT
    Lagos --> Archer
    Emer --> Lib
    Germans begin GWall! (Hamburg)

    T 2, 950 BC
    Thwarted Site2 Settler arrives on Site"?" (it has a River!)
    Workers moved to Grass-tiles near Guim and Faro
    Realise I forgot to MM around Lisbon last turn for more efficient food and shield-use; do that now, but the results are not nearly as pretty as they could/should have been
    Switch Faro to building Courthouse: it will need one (more than an rSpear!)
    Byzzies have now hooked some extra Spices! Not sure where -- probably Trebizond -- but unfortunately they haven't built any Harbours yet... :rolleyes:
    IBT
    Lisbon --> Rax
    Oporto --> Horse
    Guim riots! Not sure why, probably because I wasn't paying attention (Geek assigned)

    T 3, 925 BC
    Rio Janeiro founded --> Rax
    Ozzie has somehow acquired 422g, and wants to give us 420 g for Philo! Well OK then! (We're still up CoL and Lit)
    IBT

    T 4, 900 BC
    Workers move to Grass-tiles near Leira
    IBT
    Guim --> Horse
    Greeks begin GWall! (Sparta)

    T 5, 875 BC
    New vHorse from Guim and rAxe from Lagos swap places
    IBT

    T 6, 850 BC
    Worker-pair to mine north of Guim
    Worker to Rio's Cow
    Explorers exploring: Curragh finds NE coast of Ottomania
    Oporto's new citz geeked to prevent riot
    IBT
    Ozzie demands Lit! I refuse, and he DoWs! Thanks muchly for the free WH!

    T 7, 825 BC
    Checking F3 (we're still WEAK vs. everyone, of course), I see that the Ottos are in Anarchy -- so Ozzie must have just learned Monarchy!
    WH lets me move the Horse from Lagos to Coimbra for a wider response-radius, rSpear moved out to Faro
    We are still waaay under our free-unit-limit, so Coimbra's rArcher-build switched to Worker (1T left, Pop4 in 1T)
    IBT
    LIsbon --> Horse (4T)
    Coimbra --> Gran

    T 8, 800 BC
    Lagos didn't get IBT-shields, so Archer-build switched to Sword (4T, Pop5 in 1T)
    Alex now knows Monarchy (and the Greeks are revolting) as well! Has he somehow met Ozzie...?
    Sagres switched from Rax-build to Harbour (since we are likely to lose our Curragh soon, it can build some replacements)
    IBT
    Leira --> Rax
    Evora --> Galley
    Ottos begin HGard! (Uskudar)

    T 9, 775 BC
    Evora, Guim and Oporto MM'd for neater finishes
    Out of curiosity, I ask Alex what he wants for Monarchy: he offers the bargain price of Lit, Horses and 530g! Guess he hasn't met Ozzie after all, since he still seems to think he has a monopoly!
    (But he would pay us all his gold -- 35g -- for Lit! No.)
    IBT
    Oporto --> Horse
    Guim --> Sword
    Germans begin GLight! ()

    T 10, 750 BC
    New vHorses moved out to Emer, rAxe pulled back to use as MP in the core
    GAME SAVED
    Handover

    We are now only 8T from Republic, and still up Lit over everyone we know (we haven't yet located Persia, Sumer and Korea). Hammi and Bismarck also have yet to learn CoL, and Hammi doesn't know Construction yet either. The Greeks and Ottos know Monarchy (and have revolted/are revolting), but haven't traded it around yet (we could afford to buy it, but we don't need it). We also have >900 gold in the kitty (mostly from 2 tech-sales), and are still militarily weak against everyone, so we can probably expect to receive (additional) threats of war very soon.

    We have already received the first demand (for Lit), from Ozzie: since he cannot reach us, I rejected it, and we are now at war with him, giving us free War Happiness. The worst he can do is sink our Curragh, otherwise, we can safely keep this (phony) war going until the Ottos become capable of Ocean-crossings (i.e. sometime in the mid- to late-Medieval!) -- at which point we can sign a PT and swap Luxes with him instead. The Babs are likewise no threat to us either.

    If we get demands from the Greeks, the Russians, and likely also the Byzzies, though, we should probably cave. To help keep Bismarck sweet, we can now easily afford to build an Embassy in Germany, but if he demands something, we can probably still safely tell him to go jump: if he DoWs, we can certainly afford to sign Dora up against him instead.

    The Ottoman-inspired WH is now allowing our higher-CPT 1st-ringers to sustain Pop5 with 1 MP and no Specialists; the 2nd-ringers should be able to do Pop4 with 1 MP. I had to assign a couple of Geeks to keep order in Evora (just reached Pop3, but no MP), Lisbon (Pop7) and Lagos (now effectively 3rd-ring), but there seemed little point in raising the LUX% rate yet: we can probably wait until we go to Republic, and our population explodes.

    And Evora's Geek can go back to working a tile if we do another Axe-transfer. An rAxe (and a Worker) has just left Emerita, and can reach Oporto next turn; Oporto's Axe can then go to Lisbon, and one of Lisbon's to Evora. Lisbon will anyway need MM once its Horse is done this IBT. With some juggling, it should be able to do 10 SPT and 0 (or +2) FPT neatly.

    I have generally been doing more roading than mining during my set: with several Libs now up and running, CPT seemed more important than SPT. Workers which were improving our more outlying regions have been gradually pulled back towards Oporto, because there were/are still a lot of unimproved tiles in this region (and we will also want stacks for Hill-mining soon).

    The 3 Workers SSW/SSE of Oporto will be finished their jobs this IBT, and can then mine the Wines (2T), and the BGrass (2T) towards Rio (the frustrated Site2 Settler). The 2 Workers NNW of Oporto will also be done this IBT: I'd suggest that one goes to help the miner 1NE of Oporto (reducing turns-to-complete from 4T to 2T) and the other roads the riverside Grass to the south of the miner (1 + 3T); Then the last 3 Grass tiles can be solo-roaded (1+3T), and then stack-mined while we revolt.

    I have also generally built more infra than military on this set, mainly because I wanted Raxes (and pop-counts) up first, to build vet-units: but feel free to switch any (Rax-)builds-in-progress as you see fit.

    To safely increase our towns' max. size further, note that Dora now has 2 spare Spices available, which we should/will be able to trade for (she lacks Horses and Wines) -- after she's built a Harbour somewhere useful (her west coast would be preferable, so we're trading through Greek waters rather than Russian), and/or there is a complete road to Constantinople via Russia. Of course, if we trade through Russia (or Russian waters), we would then have to do our utmost to avoid war with Cathy...

    Save is below
     

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    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  3. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Looks good. I've got the save.

    It doesn't matter where the Byzantines build a harbor, since we know a coastal path all the way around her lands (though it goes through German lands). However, Russia controls the coast on both sides, so we need to avoid war with Russia anyway if we want to trade with the Byzantines. I'll try to keep us out of war, though.

    I will have time to look seriously at the save tomorrow and should be able to start playing then.
     
  4. Dwarven Zerker

    Dwarven Zerker Just one more turn Honey!

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    lurker's comment:

    Looking good everyone! Keep up the excellent work.

    BTW: Can I has some eye candy (aka pics), please? :D

    [relurk]
     
  5. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Hey, we have an audience! We must not disappoint them!

    Here's Portugal as of 750 BC

    Spoiler Large image :
    jar03 portugal in 750 bc.png
    And here's how much of the world our intrepid Curragh has explored so far...

    jar03 known world 750 bc.png
     
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  6. Dwarven Zerker

    Dwarven Zerker Just one more turn Honey!

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    [delurk again]

    Looks like, if you can take out Greece and Russia before end of IA; you should be able to coast pretty easily to your winning launch. :hammer:
    Probably easier said than done, especially since I have (had really) trouble winning on Emperor.

    [re-relurk]
     
  7. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    End of the IA?!? I'm hoping we'll have them reduced to rump-states/non-entities before the end of the Medieval!

    I certainly don't want to face Cossacks if we can avoid/prevent it... :hide:
     
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  8. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    I'm almost done, but I have a question.
    We have learned the Republic, and Greece has learned Currency, the last AA tech.
    How about trading the Republic to Greece for Currency? The rest of our continent has cash. We could sell them currency for cash (about 350 gold) and then potentially trade the Republic for MA techs. I don't think this falls into the "Don't gift backwards civs up for their free techs" category, since it is a bunch of gold, and I wouldn't call them backwards. (We are currently up Lit and Republic, except for Germany which is also down CoL.)

    In other news, we've met Sumeria and Korea. All AA wonders except GL are built. We drew a 7-turn anarchy.
     
  9. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    So Greece is now Medieval?

    But why trade Alex Republic and not Lit (if he doesn't have the latter yet)? I mean, Republic is more valuable than Lit is (and thus more likely to help with getting us Medieval freebies), but wouldn't selling him Republic now devalue it for everyone else on our continent, making it more difficult/expensive to use for trading against Medieval techs?

    Whereas dumping our Lit-monopoly in exchange for his Currency-monopoly (if we can?), would still get us everyone else's cash when we sell Currency on to them, but also retain our Republic-monopoly that much longer, that maybe we can trade it to Alex/someone for whatever MA tech he/she got. Then we'd have Republic, <MA-Tech1> and Lit available to sell to the next AI-Civ(s), once we've brought them into the Medieval as well.

    Or are you thinking to hold onto Lit for as long as possible, to minimise the potential window of usefulness for the GLib, to any Civ which might then build it?

    If we're significantly closer to DoW-ing Cathy 'safely', then we should maybe also not ignore the possibility of using @Lanzelot's trick, of holding Republic back until we're ready to fight her, and then selling it to her for tech(s)/ lump-sum cash, on the turn just before we DoW (in the hope that she revolts and then spends her first couple of war-turns in Anarchy).
    Oof.

    @jarred!, do you want to give @CKS the dubious honour of pressing <Enter> 7 times, so that you can play from a post-Anarchy savegame? What do you both think?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  10. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    I like to hold on to lit as long as possible, not really so much to keep the GL from helping someone, but mostly to keep the AI from libraries as long as possible. Plus, the AI won't have gpt to give until they get out of despotism, and the AI on our continent (except Greece) don't know any government techs.

    I expect that Greece is close to learning lit, though, as I just checked on trading possibilities. Trading lit + 890 g (all our gold) gets us close to a deal on currency, while republic gets us currency, monarchy, and 13 g (all their gold).

    We can also buy monarchy pretty cheaply from the other continent. (Writing + construction + 150g would do it. Presumably selling writing first would let us get monarchy without paying gold for it.) This would give us a second government tech to trade around for early MA techs.
     
  11. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Oh well, if we can't trade Lit, guess it does make sense to trade Republic instead.

    Idle thought:

    I remember that Alex founded an Iron-town near the Byzzies — do we know if he's anywhere near getting it roaded/Harboured yet? Because if/when he gets Feud, I don't much fancy facing Maces backed up by Hops, either (especially if compounded by FreeBarracks from SunTzu!). So if he ever DoWs us, we should pay Dora to pillage that Iron on our behalf...
    Does 'the other continent' mean that Sumeria and Korea are on the same landmass as the Ottos and Babs? (And the Jerk has his own island?)

    And if Monarchy's so cheap, that some/all of them have it?

    But if we can already get Monarchy from the Greeks as part of a trade for Republic, does being able to buy it cheap(er) from the other continent help us at all? Even if Alex has no gold-reserves to speak of, does he have e.g. Workers for sale, that we could substitute for Monarchy in the deal with him?
    Trade-bait is always good — however we get it!
     
  12. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Could we get monarchy from the other island, trade that around for cash and maybe get currency for cash only? Then we wouldn't have to decide whether to give up lit or republic.

    Also, CKS, go ahead and play through the anarchy if you want.
     
  13. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Everyone we've met so far has been on one of the two known continents. The Persians could either be on the other continent or isolated. Everyone on the other continent has monarchy and so do the Greeks.

    I don't think we can raise enough money to buy currency for cash - 890 g + 16 gpt is still doubtful. Throwing in iron gets us close to a deal, but I'd rather not give them iron.
     
  14. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    We could do that, but (I think) Monarchy is more expensive than Lit, isn't it? And even though no-one else (on our continent) has Lit yet, they will do soon, if Alex is nearly there (either because he cheapens it, or flat-out sells it around), so Monarchy should retain much more value (on our continent) going into the Medieval than Lit does/will.

    Conversely, Republic + Lit will remain hugely valuable across the pond, even after our first trade over there.
    I agree. It's bad enough that we 'have' to feed Alex Republic, but at least Hops + Archers aren't a major threat to us (especially once we get Feud = Maces + Pikes).

    Conversely, Hops + Swords (and that lovely big fertile territory to produce them in bulk) will already be difficult to defeat without Cats, and Alex with Hops + Maces will likely need Cats + Maces (+ Knights?) to defeat him. At least he's already had his GA, but I would still prefer to take out Cathy first (Spears + Archers, and poorer land, which we will nonetheless be able to exploit — as farms — much more effectively than she can).

    @CKS, If you can swing such a deal, would it also be better to provide her with Monarchy rather than Republic (so that she revolts to the gov-type with the lower CPT)?
     
  15. CKS

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    Probably. I'll see what I can do this evening and be back with more questions if anything interesting turns up.
     
  16. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I don't have the info at hand but I think monarchy is more expensive than literature. I don't have an issue with using lit/republic in trades, either.

    The general course of research in the middle ages will be to astronomy and then to theory of gravity, and try to nab the science wonders?
     
  17. CKS

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    Yes, putting them in a commerce-rich city that isn't the capital, so we can use a palace prebuild.
     
  18. CKS

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    Turn 0, 750 – Things look good.
    IBT: Germany complains about us, Lisbon horse > horse, Greeks start HG.

    Turn 1,
    Worker actions, mostly, and move warriors around as suggested. Horse moves toward Sagres.
    IBT: Lagos sword > sword, Sagres harbor > library, Ottomans finish ToA. Koreans finish GLH. Sumerians build HG.

    Turn 2, 710
    See purple borders, meet units from Sumeria. Sumeria is up monarchy, missing writing and math.
    IBT: Braga barracks > horse. Greece builds GW in Athens. Early war with them will be extra painful.

    Turn 3, 690:
    Meet Korea, up monarchy, down lit. Persia is the only civ remaining unmet.
    IBT: Lisbon horse > horse

    Turn 4, 670
    Emerita gets a geek.
    IBT: Guim sword > sword

    Turn 5, 650
    Nothing interesting. Ottomans will talk, but we don't.
    IBT: Sumeria complains. Leiria barracks > horse. Korea builds SoZ.

    Turn 6, 630
    Greece knows currency.
    IBT: Lisbon and Oporto horse > horse

    Turn 7, 610
    Nothing interesting.
    IBT: Greece demands horses, reluctantly I comply. Lagos sword > sword

    Turn 8, 590
    Republic in 1.
    IBT: learn Republic, revolt, hire taxmen and clowns, and one geek.

    Turn 9, 570
    6 more turns of anarchy. Pause to consult on trading for currency.
    Trade Greeks republic for currency, monarchy, and 13 g. Greeks have monotheism.
    Sell currency to Byzantines for 186 g. They get feudalism.
    Sell currency to Russia for 139 g + 4 gpt. They get engineering.
    Sell currency & CoL to Germany for 42 g. They get feudalism.
    Don't make any more trades, in hopes that the prices will come down, since I can't get anything for Republic.
    IBT: zzz

    Turn 10, 550:
    Trade Republic to Germany for feudalism.
    Trade Monarchy, feudalism, and 40 g to Russia for engineering.
    We can't get monotheism without giving Greece iron, so I don't make the trade. (Their iron is still outside their cultural borders.)
    I upgrade 3 swords and a spear.
    IBT: Greeks start Sun Tzu's.

    Playing through anarchy:
    Turn 11, 530
    some exploring and worker actions.
    IBT: Byzantines start Sun Tzu's.

    Turn 12, 510
    Same. Greeks, Byzantines, Russians are all monarchies, Germany is a republic. They all know the Republic now, though.
    IBT: Russians and Ottomans start Sun Tzu's.

    Turn 13, 490
    Find Persian borders. They appear to be isolated. We should be able to make contact next turn – the crossing isn't safe, but we'll reach the border.
    Russia knows Monotheism.
    IBT: Greeks start GL

    Turn 14, 470
    Meet Persia, isolated, backwards, and broke.
    Hit enter, we are a republic.

    I'm passing it along now, with no units moved and no citizens reassigned.
    There is a scout in Faro that can be disbanded (our support costs are now 46 gpt).
    There is a spear in Guim that I was going to upgrade and send to the border.
     

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  19. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I've been busy over the weekend, but I've got it. With the Greeks having built the Great Walls, should I start getting ready for a war with Russia?
     
  20. CKS

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    I think so.
     

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