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JAR03: Portugal, DG, Space Race

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I was going to agree, but then I looked at the save in detail.

    Russia now has Iron hooked (likely the one near St Pete's, which we can't reach easily), and Cathy knows Feudalism. If Smolensk (on a Hill, shielded by Mountains) and Novgorod (Pop7 and south of a River if we arrive directly from Smolensk) are already guarded by Pikes, attacking those towns may thus already be almost as difficult as attacking Greek Hops in Knossos/Corinth would be (both on flatland, albeit boosted by GWall) -- but with the added drawback that Cathy can hit us back with Swords or Maces.

    So maybe we should now consider attacking Alex instead of Cathy?

    As long as all he has to attack us with are Archers and Horses, then putting Pikes+Trebs plus a decent attacker or 2 in our border-towns should be enough to secure them. We can ping incoming Horses as they attack, and force marauding Hops to retreat to lick their wounds. We'll need Trebs to take his (and later Cathy's) towns, anyway, so we might as well start building/using them now as later.

    And I see Corinth has now stolen our Cow, and I want Knossos gone as well (if we can capture it, we can chop Forest into a Settler-disband), so we can put a town on that coastal Hill. (Yes! I will make my dotmap a reality!). And look at Sparta, founded one tile away from the coast, just for the Wines and Wheat! It has to go, too :rolleyes: Plus Alex extorted Horses from us, which smarts (although yes, I would have caved too), so all in all he's definitely due some schooling/payback.

    Getting hold of Pyramids and GWall would be great, too -- if we can manage it (he's put so many of Athens' shields into Wonders, it's likely still quite lightly guarded).

    And maybe we could get Cathy in on the action as well, to weaken both of them? They've already fought one war not long ago, so it shouldn't be too difficult to stir them up again.

    But whoever we go after, we'll obviously need (a lot) more Maces, Horses and Trebs (and some Pikes to protect them) before we start anything. So yes, build up our military as much as you can. In the meantime, we should probably think about disbanding most/all of those now-pretty-much-useless rAxe MP-garrisons into, say, Coimbra's Gran-build, or Rio's Rax? Sure, we could afford to upgrade them, but why bother? I'd rather have fully-trained vMaces built from scratch, than green rMaces at 90g a pop...

    We have >1200 g in the bank though, and if we're going to carry on min-running at Mono, I'd be strongly tempted to cash-rush Faro's CH-build (we're still planning to put our FP there?), so we can get it going on a Lib as well. I'd also use a Worker to chop that Forest into Coimbra's Gran (and/or switch that build to a Lib, to try and get our Cow back -- if we're planning to own the Pyramids anyway ;) )...
     
  2. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I've been playing the first few turns min-running mono with the hopes a decent deal presents itself. On 390BC an opportunity arises: the Koreans are down lit and engineering, and just made a series of trades during the IBT so they have 390g and 57gpt to trade. I could trade them lit for around 225g or EGR for all their gold and gpt, and then turn around and use that cash to buy mono from the Russians. They want lit, horses, and about 1050g for mono. This would leave us with about 400g and enough gpt to research theology at 50-60%, at a gold surplus, in about 20T.
    Also, last turn we got a trade route with the Germans and Byzantines, and are now able to trade for spices. The byzzies want our wines, and are willing to trade their spices along with 1g, their entire treasury. I have the lux slider set to 20%, and with spices I could drop it to 10%, but this would mean Lisbon (size 9) would probably still need a scientist to avoid unrest. Trading for spices and keeping lux at 20% seems like a waste(?), but I'd rather have all of Lisbon's citizens working tiles.

    I'd like to make the mono trade, but another civ learning mono would make negotiations even more favorable for us. I think we can wait on the spices trade, and maybe get them in an alliance with the byzzies against the Greeks in a little bit.

    Edit, And giving the Koreans engineering might help advance research along the bottom branch of the tech tree while we speed down the middle path
     
  3. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    I don't think there is much to choose from between Greece and Russia. I'm fine with either as our first victim. With Greece, they have poor but speedy attackers and can potentially attack without exposing themselves to treb fire. With Russia, they have slow movers which we can hit with trebs, but they are much better attackers. Russian cities can be starved down to towns if needed, but Greek towns have walls. On the other hand, Greeks lands will be better for us, and Athens would be great to take early.

    If we want to trade with the Byzantines, we need to not attack Russia. I guess that means Greece should be our target.

    I'd rather make the spice trade now, as I'm not sure we'll be ready for war in much less than 20 turns. We can use the wines as alliance incentive the second time around if we want. I'd drop the lux slider to 10% and hire a scientist in Lisbon if needed, but working coastal tiles might give it enough commerce to stay content while still outputting 10 spt.

    If lit and engineering are unknown on the other continent, then I'm not eager to trade with just a single AI. If somebody else knows either one, I say go for it. I'd rather get all their cash and gpt for engineering. Is there anyone else on their continent we can get something from at the same time? Sumeria was pretty backwards; what about the Ottomans or Babylonians? It would need to be a great deal with the Ottomans to be worth giving up war happiness, though.

    I'd like to buy monotheism soon, but I don't want to give the Russians horses unless we've dragged them into war against the Greeks. They could be close to chivalry, and we don't want to face Russian knights. Let's wait until the price comes down.
     
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  4. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I'll make the spices trade, and hold off on the monotheism trade until the price comes down.

    Sumerians are backwards with no cash
    Ottomans lack engineering and lit and have no cash
    Babylon is down currency and the republic but has gold and gpt to trade
    Korea is down lit and engineering and has gold and gpt to trade

    I didn't think of trading currency to the Babs, but I think that's a good idea. Maybe they'll get mono as their free tech, but it's unlikely they know the Greeks and Russians. At any rate, if we trade engineering to the Koreans, it's unlikely we'll be able to trade to it to anyone else for a gain.
     
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  5. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Turn 0, 450BC:
    Upgrade spearman, disband scout
    swap builds in lisbon and guim to pikes
    Put citizens back to work, bump sci up to 10%, bump up lux to 20%
    monotheism in 45T, treasury: 1178g @ +38gpt

    IBT:
    koreans start sun tzus
    persia asks us to leave

    Turn 1, 430BC:
    Evora: galley>treb
    Disband 2 warriors into Coimbras gran
    Rush CH in Faro

    IBT:

    Turn 2, 410BC:
    Lisbon: Pike>horseman
    Guim: Pike>horseman
    Faro: CH>Lib

    Disband 2 warriors into Sagres' Lib
    Trade Route connected to Byzzies and Germans

    IBT:

    Turn 3, 390BC:
    Emerita: Lib>treb
    Leiria: Horseman>Horseman
    Braga: Horseman>Pike

    Trade Byzzies wines for spices and 1g
    Trade Babs Currency for 160g and 17gpt (babylon gets engineering as their free tech)
    Trade Koreans Engineering for 390g and 43gpt

    drop lux to 10%, and science to 0%, then hire a scientist in lisbon
    treasury: 1632g@+126gpt, mono due in 42T
    I decide to buy an embassy with the stringest civ in the game, Sumeria:
    ur embassy.png

    IBT:

    Turn 4, 370BC:
    Oporto: horseman>pikeman
    Leiria grows to size 6 (not on a river), and needs a scientist to stay happy

    IBT:

    Turn 5, 350BC:
    Lisbon: Horseman>pikeman

    IBT:
    Russians ask us to leave (galley in coastal waters near Khabarovsk)

    Turn 6, 330BC:
    Decide to rush the lib in Faro to steal the cow back and lower the flip risk from Corinth, now that were rolling in it.

    IBT:

    Turn 7, 310BC:
    Guim: horseman>lib
    Evora: treb>galley
    Faro: lib>rax

    Several towns grow, so lix is set back at 20%, and both scientists go back to working tiles so sci gets bumped to 10%.

    IBT:

    Turn 8, 290BC:
    Lisbon:pike>horseman
    Oporto:pike>MDI
    Emerita: pike>rax
    Leiria: horsean>horseman
    Braga:pike>MDI

    IBT:

    Turn 9, 270BC:
    Coimbra: granary> treb
    Rio: Rax>MDI

    IBT:

    Turn 10, 250BC:
    Lagos: MDI>horseman
    sagres: lib>galley
     

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  6. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Looks good. I notice that we are now militarily average compared to the Russians - good job on the build up and modernizing of our forces - so we'll probably be wanting to start our war with the Greeks pretty soon. I'd feel better if we had some trebs (we have one) to fill out our army, though.

    We have a lot of cash. How about using some to short rush units?
    We can swap a tile with Lisbon to get Oporto to 10 spt and then both cities can short-rush efficiently.
    Also, Leiria should build MDI, and Braga should build horses at their current spt outputs. We might want to build, rush, or chop an aquaduct in Leiria, though. It would help with our unit support costs, currently 58 gpt, and let us get to 10 spt there, too.
     
  7. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I was worried the stronger civs were going to start extorting us for cash, but no one made any demands during my set.
    I think the Babs and Koreans each have around 15gpt and over 100g if we wanted to trade them another tech.

    Flip risk was nearing 1% for several border towns. I think Emerita is at like 0.9%, and this is why I have a bunch of units stationed in Faro (although it has gained a few tiles back from the Greeks, so it's risk isn't as high anymore).

    I would also favor building more trebs--I don't think I built enough. Maybe we should start building more MDI than horses so we aren't beholden to the discovery of chivalry before starting our wars.
     
  8. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I gottit.

    And this...
    ...looks like my plan... ;) So... short-rush more Maces, more Trebs, more Horses, rush Ducts where minimal LUX%-spending can sustain Pop7+...? Rush courthouses in the 2nd-3rd ringers?

    If and when we get to 'average' vs. Greece as well, should I risk DoWing Alex myself, or wait for him to demand something (else) from us? (IIRC, his Horse-ransom should already have expired, right?). I would go after Corinth first, but I'm not sure if we'd want to keep it? Slave it down, and then regrow it? Or just raze-and-replace, to eliminate the flip-risk?

    Knossos is gonna burn though, one way or another... :hammer:
    If we're now in the tech-lead, then I'd like to make it bigger before we start throwing them bones. In the meantime, if anyone else on the other continent gets cheeky, then more WH is always helpful... ;)

    Any other thoughts to add to that? I'll check in again tomorrow, and play over the weekend...
     
  9. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    There are 2 turns left on the horse deal.
    If we get to average vs Greece, we should declare and ally Russia. I think we'll want war before we reach military parity, though. I'd say, refuse any demands from them and declare when you feel ready if they don't demand anything.

    Any towns we take are going to be massive flip risks, since Greece has 5 times our culture. We'll need to keep a couple of MDI next to any towns we keep, in order to retake them when they flip. If this isn't feasible, we should raze and replace.
     
  10. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Newsflash from Turn 1: We are at war!!!
    Spoiler DoN't PaNiC... :
    But not (yet) with the Greeks: in exchange for not giving him Republic, Hammi decided to give us some more free WH (we're also still at 'war' with the Ottos) ;)

    What I've just realised that I didn't check, however, is whether that new WH might have allowed me to lower our LUX%-rate :blush: Sure, while we're min-running on Mono, it's not as though we're hurting for cash (Treasury is at around 1900g, despite my rushing a Duct and a Courthouse, Embassying Germany, and short-rushing some unit-builds), but more gold is always better than less (even though it's probably now too late to speed up research on Mono significantly...)

    (When I asked Cathy what she wanted for it a couple of turns back, she asked for Lit, 1000 gold and Horses!).
    Leaving Maces near flip-risk towns won't be feasible on what I've built so far during my set (about 5 or 6 more Maces than we had, with another couple in the pipeline, plus a few more Trebs).

    If I've counted right, I'm now on Turn 7 of my set (110 BC). I have almost completed our war-preparations: I just need/want 1 more Pike in Braga. Then I'll have at least 2 Pikes and a bunch of attackers in each of Faro, Braga, and Emerita: the 3 towns that Alex's Horses can reach in 1T from his side of the border.

    I'm hoping then that when I (or you, @CKS) DoW him, he will send his Horses after one of the softer-looking targets further in (I have pretty much emptied the back-line towns of their units), which should then let us use our (huuuge pile of) Horses, to turn his into glue. Then our Maces can deal with his follow-up Archers (and since he now has Invention, any LBMs he's built/upgraded). And then we should be able to start moving forwards in earnest.

    Although we do now have our spare Horses back from Alex, I have withheld them from Cathy, partly because she has no GPT until her current tech-purchase runs its course, but mostly so that I can use them to bribe her into the war, when it starts.

    I'll finish up and post the save tomorrow, OK?
     
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  11. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Sounds good. Thanks for the update.
     
  12. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    All done.
    Spoiler Turnlog :
    T 0, 250 BC
    Cycle through the towns, neatening current builds, switching where needed (IMHO):
    Sagres and Emerita both need Courthouses (Emer is about to grow to Pop7)
    Leira and Evora will both need Ducts sooner rather than later
    Rio + Braga haven't got the SPT to build Maces (and we don't neded any more Horsemen!), so switched to Pikes (for now)
    Coimbra can do Trebs for now (switched to Worker for short-rush)
    All Pikes moved closer to Greek border (rPikes in Hill-towns, vPikes on flatland)
    Maces head north from Lagos
    Won't be DoWing Alex before our Workers near Faro are done, though -- nor before our Galley is out of Greek waters...
    IBT
    Zzzz...

    T 1, 230 BC
    Worker near Lagos moves into Russia to hook us up to Cathy
    Worker from Oporto to mine roaded Hill (12T, before teamup)
    rAxe cemented into Leira's Duct, which is rushed (288 g)
    Horse-build rushed in Oporto (8g), switched to Mace (1T)
    Coimbra rushed to Worker (4g), switched to Treb (4T)
    Now that Sagres has a vPike, last rAxe is buried under the Courthouse-foundations (now 12T to completion)
    IBT
    Hammi demands Republic! I say "Nope!" So, more WH for us...
    Lisbon, Oporto --> Mace (needs MM)
    Leira --> Pike (already making 10SPT, but needs MM for 1st-ringers' convenience)
    Greeks have discovered Invention, begin Leos!

    T 2, 210 BC
    Lisbon MM'd for 14SPT = 3T-Maces
    Oporto MM'd to 10SPT
    Emer now at Pop7, Court rushed (212g)
    Our Horse-bribe has expired. So Alex may come calling soon (we're still Weak)...
    IBT
    Emer --> SunTz-... No! (Silly domestic advisor): Barracks (4T)
    Braga --> Horse (5T)

    T 3, 190 BC
    Leira rushed to Worker (4g), MM'd to 10 SPT and switched to Mace (3T)
    Cathy could maybe buy some Horses from us next turn, once her GPT from the last deal we did is freed up again
    Galley leaves the Greek islands, sailing east into the unknown...
    IBT
    Greek Archers incoming near Corinth...?
    Lisbon --> Mace
    Coimbra (7SPT) --> Worker for short-rush to Treb
    Lagos --> Horse

    T 4, 170 BC
    Check the Espionage screen, we haven't got an Embassy in Berlin yet, so I do that (84g). What is Bismarck playing at, leaving his capital at Pop4...?
    Spoiler Berlin, 170 BC :
    jar03 berlin 170 bc.png
    Curragh sails west back to Sumeria; after confirming that the Koreans have met the Persians
    Guim is nearly finished its Lib, so lone Workers near Faro and Lagos return to begin Hill-mining...
    IBT
    Gil complains about our Curragh
    Oporto, Leiria --> Mace
    Rio --> Horse
    Russians begin GLib!
    Galley sinks :(

    T 5, 150 BC
    rPikes move to block Mountains east of Rio
    vPike sent to Faro
    Coimbra rushed to Worker (12g), switched to Treb (3T)
    Worker-4-pack to mine roaded Hill near Leiria
    Decide that Braga needs another Pike for its stack (5 Maces, 2 Horses) to be able to advance on Knossos: Horse-build switched (2T)
    IBT

    T 6, 130 BC
    Worker begins roading Guim's Grass, second moves to Hill
    Worker 3-pack from Faro, to road+mine Hill south of Coimbra
    IBT
    Guim --> Duct (12T, Pop7 in 6T)
    Lagos --> Lib (20T, Pop7 in 1T; it needs more tiles to de-crowd Coimbra/Rio)
    Emer --> Pike (3T)

    T 7, 110 BC
    Curragh finds North(?) Korea
    Military Advisor says we are currently:
    WEAK -- vs Greeks, Babs, Persians, Summies
    AVERAGE -- vs Germans, Russians, Koreans, Byzzies
    STRONG -- vs Ottomans
    GAME SAVED
    IBT
    Lisbon --> Mace
    Braga, Faro --> Treb

    T 8, 90 BC
    Curragh discovers Korean island(?) north of Sumeria
    Now that I've reminded myself I test our LUX% spending ;) Unfortunately, we still can't drop to 10% without a 3rd LUX% resource.
    Our Scout has now nearly finished mapping the Byzzies' area, but the last couple of fogged tiles are still some distance away: although we can get an RoP from the Byzzies for 3 gpt (or Horses!), this doesn't seem worth it
    Bismarck now knows Monotheism as well: he initially asks for Wines + Horses + Lit + Eng for it! (Has he still not met Alex?)! But he will sell it for 'just' Eng, and even throw in 13g (he has no free GPT)
    Cathy's price for Mono is now 'only' 1030g + Horses -- or 1120 gold straight up, so I accept Bismarck's offer: everyone else (on our side of the Pond) knows Eng already, so better that we get this deal than Dora (who doesn't know Mono yet)
    Across the Ocean, only Korea (that we know of) has any substantial coin: Wang offers 640g + 77 GPT for Mono (=2180g altogether if he doesn't stiff us), and he already knows Feud + Eng as well, so the Ottos and Babs have nothing to trade him for Mono (that we know of). So I accept his fair offer!
    SCI% now raised to 80% for Theo in 10T, and we still don't even have to deficit-spend (Treasury = 2752g, income = +34 GPT): let's get to Edu ASAP, and build those Unis!
    IBT
    Coimbra --> Treb
    Babs complete GLib! Much good may it do them (mental note: sell Edu to Korea + Sumeria ASAP...)
    Byzzies start (switch to?) SunTzu!

    T 9, 70 BC
    Evora will fill its food-box in 2T: Duct-build rushed (84g)
    Northern towns MM'd for more CPT and/or faster builds/less overrun
    IBT
    Oporto, Leiria --> Mace
    Emer --> Treb
    Evora --> Lib (10T) so it can harvest more seafood (oh yeah, and do more research!)

    T 10, 50 BC
    Maces shuffled forwards to frontline towns, rPikes retreated to Rio and Iron-Mountain
    We are now rated Average vs Greece! Time to kick things off (oh damn, my set's over...) :whew: ;)
    GAME SAVED
    TLDR/Handover

    We now know Monotheism (learned from Germany, for Eng), and I immediately sold it on to Korea, for all Wang's available gold + income at that point (>2000 gold in total, if he completes his end of the deal). So not only can we now research Theo at SCI% = 80% (LUX% = 20%), due in 8T, but we're even still making a small profit into the bargain!

    Important infra is now mostly (nearly) done...
    Spoiler Evora :
    About to grow to Pop7, and needs that Lib to allow the new citz to go fishing (and also do research, and put more Cultural pressure on Khab). By the time the Worker 4-pack has finished mining the Hill they're on, the Slave 2-pack will have finished roading the other one (the Slaves can then go and mine Grass near Leiria). It could build Workers/Settlers for us.
    Spoiler Guimares :
    Will need its Duct rushed next turn, so that it can grow to Pop7 the turn after that. Then either a Harbour for seafood, or it could go back to building Horses.
    Spoiler Sagres :
    The Courthouse could be rushed, but this isn't really necessary. Then a Duct 2T before it hits Pop7 (at +2FPT, this will happen in 18T). Or it could be left at Pop6 and spit out additional Trebs, or build a Barracks and then Pikes/ Horses. (We don't need ships yet -- though maybe we will for invading the more far-flung Greek towns: might be easier than slogging through their lands...)
    Spoiler Lagos :
    The Lib-build will push back against Russian Culture, and free up additional tiles for Coimbra (and hence Rio). After that it could get a Harbour (could be partly chopped) for seafood-harvesting, or go back to building Horses.
    Military-wise things are also looking good. As reported above, we are now getting WH from Babylon as well as Ottomania. And though I was too chicken to do it on my set ;) @CKS has no such excuse :nope: because within the last couple of turns, our mil-advisor has switched his rating of our strength vs. Greece from "Weak" to "Average"

    Spoiler Military intelligence is an oxymoron... :
    jar03 military in 50 bc.png
    So the time has (nearly) come to bite the bullet, and (try and) kick Alex's butt. I still have not DoW'd, though. Here's what our current force-distribution looks like:

    Spoiler This is, like, where it's at, maaaaaan... :
    jar03 force distribution.png
    As you can see, there are several Treb-builds in progress on/near the frontline which you may want to rush before the IBT (we certainly have enough cash to do that!). All units have been moved for this turn, but all are on roads/in towns, so can be redistributed along the frontline over the next 1-2 turns, if you want to do so before you DoW.

    I (followed @jarred!'s lead and) left our largest stack in Faro (to fight the flip-risk), but once Corinth (and Knossos) is gone, that should be less of a problem. But since most of our Horses are down there, I'd suggest continuing to leave Coimbra unguarded, to act as a Greek-unit-magnet (though it would probably be sensible to move the rPike currently in Rio, onto the Mountain above Coimbra, to keep the Greeks on the flat when they invade). We will need Maces to kill any Hoplite stack-defenders, but once they're gone, his D=1 units (Horses, Archers, and possibly now some LBMs) can then be attacked by our herd of hairy Horsemen.

    Cathy should be bought in to the war immediately after we DoW, and I would suggest using our spare Horses to do it, if possible (add GPT as needed). If she uses them to build Horsemen, they will die pretty quickly against Hops. And if she goes for Chiv and builds Knights, she won't be building nearly as many units (and will probably still lose quite a few of them). Either way, when it's her turn for the :hammer:, she shouldn't be much better off militarily than she is now...

    (We should probably also consider buying Chiv, once it becomes reasonably well-known).

    And maybe Dora could also be persuaded to join the fun for some more Wines? (Our current Lux-exchange expires in 3T, and we could buy her Spices for GPT instead). Even if her only contribution to the war-effort was to go and pillage the Iron near Rhodes, that would still be a good result. But if she goes a-flaming along Alex's coast, that would be even better!

    Good luck!

    (Save is below)
     

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    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  13. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    But I'm the biggest chicken of all!
    I've got the save and may be able to look at it tonight. My big plan will be to declare war within the first few turns and immediately ally Russia and maybe the Byzantines. We'll see how it goes from there.
     
  14. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Hey, you/we just won an AWE-some SG! You'll be fine! :)

    Spoiler Order of battle...? :
    After you DoW, just give Alex a couple of turns to dump the majority of his currently-idle stacks on us (and Cathy!). Though I'd expect most/all of the initial Greek incursions to come overland towards Coimbra (if it's left unguarded), we may also see border-crossings near Braga/Sagres (there's an Iron-deposit under Sagres' Hill).

    Take those opportunities to kill as many of his units as you can. Losing the occasional unit at this stage isn't necessarily a disaster: it briefly reduces our unit-maintenance costs, and we still have the mobility advantage, so replacements can join the fight/ reach the front quickly. Start moving our Mace+Pike-stacks forwards if/when you feel relatively safe doing it.

    The Maces from Leiria and Braga should all go after Knossos: Trebs won't help there (or against any other Pop1-6 towns), because Alex's Wonder-Walls will get in the way. Conversely, the Maces out of Faro and Emerita should team up to attack Corinth, and having 3-4 Trebs in that stack would probably be a good idea. (If a town's at Pop7+, Wonder-Walls are also ignored during bombardment, right?).

    Alex will then find out that it's not so good to be the King — because he can now only replace lost town-defenders by buying them (1 Hop = 14*8 = 112g, if bought from scratch by a DG-AI), and knowing Invention, he'll now have to build/rush LBMs (224g to rush from scratch), so he won't be able to do that very often/at all.

    And are we all agreed that both those towns should be razed (and replaced)?

    Since Horses would likely die like flies against fortified Hop-garrisons behind Walls/in cities, I'd only put 1-2 Horses at most into the invasion-stacks, to skirmish-and-retreat against low-D units out in the open. At least initially, I'd hold the rest of them within our own territory for rapid-response home-defence — with 1-2 Pikes + 1-2 Trebs per frontline town (but moving everyone forwards/outwards as our replacement-towns are founded, and our border expands).

    You/we should also watch out for any stray Galleys sailing along our coast, and be ready to rush Pikes and/or Trebs in any threatened towns in our hinterlands if necessary (maybe some ships of our own wouldn't be such a bad idea after all...?).

    Otherwise, just continue to spam Maces, Trebs and the occasional Pike. You could (theoretically!) cash-rush a new Mace-wave out of each 10-SPT Rax-town every other turn, for 3-4 turns, before our current gold runs out (10s + 30*4g = 1 Mace, so 2700 / 120 = 22[.5] Maces!). If necessary, to replenish our Treasury we could always slow down research and/or sell more techs (e.g. Wang still wants Lit, Dora still needs Mono...)

    We'll also need Settlers to replace Knossos (on the coastal Hill) and Corinth (maybe 1 tile further north/east of its current location, to free up tiles for Faro/Emer?), and also a (combat-)Settler to advance our border towards Sparta (if you can get that far?). Evora has lots of food (and will soon have lots of shields), so maybe it could build those at Pop6-7 (it has no Gran), and then Trebs/Galleys at Pop5-6? If we did that, Evora wouldn't need a Lib to expand its borders just yet. Alternatively, Oporto could build those Settlers...

    It would also be good if we could (eventually) secure Alex's Spices (in... Delphi?), so we didn't need to buy them from Dora...

    If/when we can get Chiv, then upgrading some Horses to Knights will likely also be worthwhile (unfortunately Sagres' Iron also prevents us from doing discon-recon for Horse -> Knight upgrades). We'll certainly want Chiv before we start preparing to pivot south against Cathy (we might want to consider feeding Mono to Dora for cheaps, to help her along the way?).

    (And in the meantime, do you have a grandmother who'd like to learn how to suck eggs...?) ;)
     
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  15. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Just a quick update from 5 turns in:
    We declared war on Greece and allied the Russians. The Greece have sent very few units toward us, so our stacks have begun advancing. (The Byzantines wanted more than I was willing to pay, so I did not ally them.)
     
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  16. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I expect to enjoy my vinho do Porto in Athens this evening! :)
     
  17. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Knossos and Corinth are both gone, but Faro has flipped to the Russians. I'm going to resettle on the pink dot site by Knossos, but where should I put the southern settler?

    My inclination is to put it back where Corinth was, but putting it on the river east of the cow gives it a river tile. Putting it 1 SE of that lets us steal the horses back from Russia if we build a library. Both of these increase the possibility of Faro flipping back to us. We could also move a tile farther into Greek territory. If you don't want me to put it where Corinth was, let me know soon.
    FaroFlip.png
     
  18. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    If Faro is still going to be our FP city, then I think Corinth's original location would be the closest I'd want to settle. We'd still be exerting a lot of cultural pressure too, especially after (rushing?) some culture (library?).
     
  19. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Not sure if this reply is still worth making at this point, but tempting as that river-tile is, Settling there would leave a lot of the neighbouring towns very short on food-tiles.

    And since Faro already flipped away from us, trying to put Cultural pressure on it by Settling CxC from it in any direction seems kind of pointless at this stage. We're already planning to go to war with Russia later (or possibly sooner, if the Greeks are folding so 'quickly'?), so we can take Faro back by capture, and then destroy Smolensk to reduce the Russian pressure on Faro (it already popped once for us, didn't it?). If we get the FP-popup in the meantime, I think we'll just have to resign ourselves to finding somewhere else to put it (pre-build, or Leader-build it?).

    This is going to be a long game, so I'd be rather inclined to 'de-crowd' Em (and Faro) by settling Novo Corinto on the irrigated Grass 1E of the ruins (3SE from Emerita), so we're pushing our borders further into Greek territory. Because until we get Knights (or Cavs!), then Maces + Trebs are our best attackers, and that means slogging a long way through hostile territory to attack their towns. So it would seem sensible to use combat-Settlement to shorten those distances, and if we're committed to doing that, then we should plant towns that will later be usefully located (i.e. roughly halfway between our existing towns and Greek towns -- or at least town locations -- that we might actually want to keep using).

    Similarly, I would plant a town on the coastal forest 3SE from Novo Cenossa, to get us closer to Sparta...
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
  20. CKS

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    The war is going well. I'm leaving several units with movement, since what we'll want to do with them depends on if we buy chivalry or not.

    We are 6 turns from Education and we have a monopoly on Theology. I think we should sell theology and buy chivalry and invention. We can upgrade a bunch of horses and stop building slow-moving MDI.

    Turn 0 – 50 BC
    Short rush some trebs to be ready in 2 turns. Change Evora build to a settler.
    IBT: Lisbon MDI to settler

    Turn 1 – 30 BC
    Short rush some MDI and a treb. Rush library in Lagos.
    IBT: Lagos library to pike, Emerita treb to MDI. Many trebs to trebs, MDI to MDI, horse to horse. Germany and Byzantines learn Monotheism.

    Turn2 – 10 BC
    Declare on Greeks. Buy in Russians for horses + 4 gpt. I don't advance.
    IBT: Hoplite+archer advance on Faro.

    Turn 3 – 10 AD
    Trebs go 2 for 3, MDI kills hoplite, horse kills archer.
    Short rush more MDI. Renew spice deal with Byzantines; buying them into the war is very expensive, so I don't.
    IBT: Sumerians demand lit, I refuse, they declare. Ottomans ask to talk, I say no. Two Greek longbows advance.
    Lisbon settler to MDI, Sagres courthouse to aquaduct, Evora settler to library, several MDI to MDI.

    Turn 4 – 30 AD
    Bombard and kill longbows.
    IBT: zzz -Greek units walk toward Russia.

    Turn 5 – 50 AD
    Advance on Corinth and Knossos.
    Kill a loose archer.
    IBT: Athens completes Sun Tzu's. Several AI cascade to Leo's, Germans cascade to Knights Templar – they've learned chivalry. Hoplite and archer stroll by, see a longbow.

    Turn 5 – 70 AD
    Advance on Knossos.
    Bombard Corinth with no results, bomb and kill hoplite and archer, horse retreats from longbow.
    IBT: Longbows attack and Knossos (dying to pike) and Corinth (horse retreats). Learn Theology. Continue building same units. Faro flips to Russians. :(

    Turn 6, 90 AD
    Cats go 2/6 at Corinth. Reg hoplite now shows. 2/4 MDI kills hoplite. MDI loses 1 hp, kills hoplite. MDI dies removing 1 hp and promoting hoplite. Now showing wounded vet hoplite. MDI dies removing 1 hp. 4/4 MDI kills hoplite. 1/4 MDI kills hoplite. 2/4 MDI kills hoplite, razes town, nets 4 workers.
    Horse retreats from longbow, horse kills longbow.
    At Knossos: First MDI dies, 2nd MDI kills hoplite, 3rd MDI kills hoplite, razes city, nets 3 workers. Move settler to pink dot site by Knossos.
    Kill longbow, return horse to barracks. Move and road. Set Braga to settler.
    IBT: Hoplite goes to new Russian horses.

    Turn 7, 110
    Move settler to irrigated grass 1 E of old Corinth. Settle Sao Paulo. Advance toward Sparta.
    IBT: Longbow dies to pike. Hoplite pillages Russian horses. Greek galleys head around to our north.

    Turn 8, 130:
    Build Luanda. Advance toward Sparta.
    IBT: Longbow kills pike. Galleys continue around.

    Turn 9, 150:
    E horse kills redlined longbow. Greeks have learned Chivalry. It is pretty expensive to buy from Germany.
    IBT: Germans build Knights Templar, Russian longbow dies to hoplite.

    Turn 10, 170:
    Big stack is now to Sparta. Settler heads toward 3 SE of Sao Paulo. Units block Greek landings. MDI kills hoplite.
     

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