Javelin Thrower and bombardment on defense
- Thread starter Civrules
- Start date
SuperBeaverInc.
Groucho
The Jav Thrower would become pretty powerful if it were to be given defensive bombard, but it would make sense.
Pounder
Phaethon was here
Any improvement to my favourite new CIV would be good.
Makes senses that the Javelin Thrower gets 0 range bombard bonus, Javelin is a long range weapon.
Makes senses that the Javelin Thrower gets 0 range bombard bonus, Javelin is a long range weapon.
kring
Asst Cook & Bottle Washer
It would too powerful. The Enslave ability is plenty.
toh6wy
Emperor
Also, javelins, for a ranged weapon, don't go very far. One can shoot an arrow a lot farther than throw a javelin.
Of course, I could be wrong. I don't claim to be an expert on javelins or anything...
And besides, it is very powerful already.
Of course, I could be wrong. I don't claim to be an expert on javelins or anything...
And besides, it is very powerful already.
Tacit_Exit
King
The bowman has one, so yeah, just for the sake of continuity.
Following the current theme, it would only be a 1 pt. bombard, so hardly overpowering.
Following the current theme, it would only be a 1 pt. bombard, so hardly overpowering.
I think abslolutely the javelin throwers should have the bombard ability! I have already said that the Javelin throwers are not that good. A bombardment should be included on next patch! The
mayans are not as good as people say!
mayans are not as good as people say!
devilzExcremNt
Chieftain
why do the javelin throwers have an extra defense anyway? i think it would make more sense to just give them the defensive bombard and take away their extra defense... then they would be equal to the normal archer (except for the enslavement ability, but is already). what do you guys think...?
panzer_kevlar
Airborne!
Sure, why not?
Firstly, the Mayans are an excellent CIV choice for the human player. Industrious and Agricutural makes for a good rexing and great roading/commerce creating. Trust me they are a top level CIV, right there with Persia, Greece, America, China, ect.....
Secondly, the javelin thower is already extremely powerfull! In fact in the hands of a good human player that micro-manages and farms his barbarians........ this UU is incredible! You could literally play an aggressive game where you do not have to build more than 1 or 2 workers the entire game! between barbarian farming, and an early war - you will be swarmed with slave workers. The savings in cash combined with the units/buildings you created instead of making workers......... well ......... just do the math....
No gentlemen, the unit is plenty powerfull enough, any other boost makes it ridiculous. Yes the upgrade, would help the stupid AI - but then that is true of any upgrade to any AI unit.
leave it be.................
Ision
Secondly, the javelin thower is already extremely powerfull! In fact in the hands of a good human player that micro-manages and farms his barbarians........ this UU is incredible! You could literally play an aggressive game where you do not have to build more than 1 or 2 workers the entire game! between barbarian farming, and an early war - you will be swarmed with slave workers. The savings in cash combined with the units/buildings you created instead of making workers......... well ......... just do the math....
No gentlemen, the unit is plenty powerfull enough, any other boost makes it ridiculous. Yes the upgrade, would help the stupid AI - but then that is true of any upgrade to any AI unit.
leave it be.................
Ision
General Porkins
World Champ Mountain Man
it is good enough as is. defensive bombard would make them too powerful. just let it be.
Well, this discussion is pretty much split. I just wanted to get some views on the matter.
My point of view:
I think that would be a very obvious choice but I also think that the UU is very powerful already. The traits and the Jav Thrower fit each other just perfectly. When you have lots of barbarians early on, you can send a lot of Javs out to get them. I've had a Jav Thrower rush and it is scary what they can do with enslavement. When you get some free workers, you can put them in some desert city (with water near by) and you can build settlers with those workers so fast it'll make your head spin. So you make a few free workers, join them in some small city, taking advantage of the traits, you build some settlers, take all the free space you have early on, make your new cities as powerful as your capitol very early on, build more Jav Throwers, send them out, get a "few" more free workers, connect the cities and work the terrain around them, build all of the great wonders and either win a cultural, wonder, or a conquest or even more likely, domination victory very, very early on and you are all set. Simple as that. So basically, the Mayans will be a monster early on.
Now, ask yourself, how much will the 0 range bombardment help the Jav Thrower become more powerful? The answer is obvious: if the Jav Thrower can still enslave when defending, this 0 range bombardment will make you even more workers. So this advantage might seem really small to some, but if you add it to the Jav Thrower, it is monstrous. I'm pretty much split on the matter but I'm leaning to the "no change" vote but it is just too close. Only if the traits were just a little different then they are right now it would probably make it easier to decide.
My point of view:
I think that would be a very obvious choice but I also think that the UU is very powerful already. The traits and the Jav Thrower fit each other just perfectly. When you have lots of barbarians early on, you can send a lot of Javs out to get them. I've had a Jav Thrower rush and it is scary what they can do with enslavement. When you get some free workers, you can put them in some desert city (with water near by) and you can build settlers with those workers so fast it'll make your head spin. So you make a few free workers, join them in some small city, taking advantage of the traits, you build some settlers, take all the free space you have early on, make your new cities as powerful as your capitol very early on, build more Jav Throwers, send them out, get a "few" more free workers, connect the cities and work the terrain around them, build all of the great wonders and either win a cultural, wonder, or a conquest or even more likely, domination victory very, very early on and you are all set. Simple as that. So basically, the Mayans will be a monster early on.
Now, ask yourself, how much will the 0 range bombardment help the Jav Thrower become more powerful? The answer is obvious: if the Jav Thrower can still enslave when defending, this 0 range bombardment will make you even more workers. So this advantage might seem really small to some, but if you add it to the Jav Thrower, it is monstrous. I'm pretty much split on the matter but I'm leaning to the "no change" vote but it is just too close. Only if the traits were just a little different then they are right now it would probably make it easier to decide.
Aramazd
Deity
I think the javalin thrower is powerful enough already
devilzExcremNt
Chieftain
so no one thinks to lower the defense? maybe it's just because i don't own C3C yet that i say this... but i think giving it defensive bombard and lowering the defense the 1 should even it out... and maybe keep the cost the same too?
That might do the trick also. It would make sense, too. Although it looses a defense point, it still has the defense bombardment and the enslave which is pretty good. By judging how the Mayans are rated from this thread, they are a little off balance right now. The solution that you propose seems like a good one in my opinion.
The 'penalty' for the Javelin throwers enslavement powers and extra defense point is the cost. 10 shields more than the babylonian UU the Bowman....... the difference between 20 and 30 shields in the early game is very significant. The time involved and lower numbers of these units evens things out,
Personally I think the developers got it right the first time.. the unit cost and it's abilitys are very well done. Theres no need to tinker.
Exchangeing the defensive point for '0 bombard' weakens the unit to where you can no longer justify the 30 shield cost.
Personally I think the developers got it right the first time.. the unit cost and it's abilitys are very well done. Theres no need to tinker.
Exchangeing the defensive point for '0 bombard' weakens the unit to where you can no longer justify the 30 shield cost.
tomart109
Perspicacious
I agree with Ision.
Remember, all this (and more) were discussed and debated at length in the beta.
I can't help feeling that "The Need To Tinker" is too powerful, and should be reduced...
Remember, all this (and more) were discussed and debated at length in the beta.
I can't help feeling that "The Need To Tinker" is too powerful, and should be reduced...
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