No, most Western countries most certainly dont have a Le Pen. I just think you are in no position to judge the French, something Israelis seem to enjoy doing very much, while a similar phenomenon has been going on in Israel for decades.
Jean-Marie Le Pen - 17.4% !!!
- Thread starter IceBlaZe
- Start date
Graedius: I think the European system gives the people more options in a way they can easily understand. I also think it allows different parties to reach out to the public better.
I'm not a typical Euro Socialist though who *****es about the terrible, fascist America without democracy. I am a moderete righ-winger and try to look past the stereotypes.
I'm not a typical Euro Socialist though who *****es about the terrible, fascist America without democracy. I am a moderete righ-winger and try to look past the stereotypes.
"No, most Western countries most certainly dont have a Le Pen. I just think you are in no position to judge the French, something Israelis seem to enjoy doing very much, while a similar phenomenon has been going on in Israel for decades."
Well, the way I see it in france 17.8% of the voters voted for Le Pen, a holocaust denialer (or very close to it...) and a racist.
In Israel the nationalist parties ('Israel our home' and 'The Nationalistic Unification') got 5.6% TOGETHER.
The way I see it, and the way france is judging Israel, considering the results, Israel is in every position to judge france.
Don't forget the freedom of speech of course.
Freedom Party of Austria, nationalist 26.9%
Front National (Xenophobic), France, 14.9%
Danish People's Party, nationalist, Denmark, 12%
Nationalist parties in Israel, 5.6%
I took these results from electionworld.org .
The way I see it Israelies are in every position to judge results of european elections
so much goes for 'Liberal' Europe and 'Racist' Israel.
Israelies split their votes between the conservative (Likud) to the Liberal (Avoda). The nationalist parties get much less votes on Israel than in Europe, my friend.
Well, the way I see it in france 17.8% of the voters voted for Le Pen, a holocaust denialer (or very close to it...) and a racist.
In Israel the nationalist parties ('Israel our home' and 'The Nationalistic Unification') got 5.6% TOGETHER.
The way I see it, and the way france is judging Israel, considering the results, Israel is in every position to judge france.
Don't forget the freedom of speech of course.
Freedom Party of Austria, nationalist 26.9%
Front National (Xenophobic), France, 14.9%
Danish People's Party, nationalist, Denmark, 12%
Nationalist parties in Israel, 5.6%
I took these results from electionworld.org .
The way I see it Israelies are in every position to judge results of european elections
so much goes for 'Liberal' Europe and 'Racist' Israel.
Israelies split their votes between the conservative (Likud) to the Liberal (Avoda). The nationalist parties get much less votes on Israel than in Europe, my friend.
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
Wait a moment, put that in perspective. That so-called communist woman was the only major left-wing candidate in the election. Jospin was so close to Chirac that there wasn't even much of a difference. That's why she was portrayed. As the left-wing alternative to Chirac/Jospin. You may disagree with her views (I do as well) but she has never done anything antidemocratic or antihuman. Le Pen on the other side is a racist, antisemite and a demagoge of the worst kind. People like him are a tragedy, and their victories are even more. There were others on the right (to start with Chirac...) but he is too far on that side.
17% for right-wing extremists like this has been unprecedented in the last decades in Europe (the Freedom Party of Austria is far less extreme than Front National). They hoped it would be over, that's why it's a tragedy.
To IceBlaZe: I don't think that all these 17% are racists. There are effectivly big problems with crime and violence in European cities, often connected to poor people, who are often immigrants. So it's easy for people like Le Pen to talk about "security" to get the people to vote for him. That doesn't mean they're all racist, they just want the abstract thing called security, sounds quite familiar, doesn't it?
Damien
Emperor
I got nothing against jewish people but i think Israel shouldn't be existing.
A jewish state?It is a faschist state.
Let's recall that,unlike what is said,many israelis don't stem from hebrews.
Israel existed 3000 years ago and hebrews were expelled nearly 2000 years ago.
It's as if Hitler had succeeded to make a superior Germany with occupied territory as Lebensraum or Mussolini to recreate the roman empire with non-italian lands as territories.
First,they expelled the Palestinians and settled.
Then,after a war,there should be a treaty about the occupied territories.Occupied territories after wars have no right.
Eventually,what's doing Sharon is simply nazism.
Burning all references about palestinians(every written document about palestinian proporties etc),what's done in palestinian cites are nazist acts.
And when i hear a sionist sayin Israel is our land;it's written in the Torah;i say why shouldn't the western countries occupy israel?It's where Jesus was born;it's written in the Bible.
If europeans or americans would think like that,the entire world would belong to em.We would say"to think that stronger people should let the others live is an utopia.Stronger people have always been crushing the others;it's like that.What you have to think about is that when the others(the arabs,africans,asiatics etc)are gonna be stronger(one day it'll happen),they're not gonna make presents to us so let's take the most of it while we are still stronger.And imagine ,if those people wouldn't be our slaves,the effects on the prices;imagine if petroleum wouldn't belong to us;the price of petrol."We don't think like that for decades in europe.The lack of democracy in the european union is one of the reasons why far right parties grow stronger.
A jewish state?It is a faschist state.
Let's recall that,unlike what is said,many israelis don't stem from hebrews.
Israel existed 3000 years ago and hebrews were expelled nearly 2000 years ago.
It's as if Hitler had succeeded to make a superior Germany with occupied territory as Lebensraum or Mussolini to recreate the roman empire with non-italian lands as territories.
First,they expelled the Palestinians and settled.
Then,after a war,there should be a treaty about the occupied territories.Occupied territories after wars have no right.
Eventually,what's doing Sharon is simply nazism.
Burning all references about palestinians(every written document about palestinian proporties etc),what's done in palestinian cites are nazist acts.
And when i hear a sionist sayin Israel is our land;it's written in the Torah;i say why shouldn't the western countries occupy israel?It's where Jesus was born;it's written in the Bible.
If europeans or americans would think like that,the entire world would belong to em.We would say"to think that stronger people should let the others live is an utopia.Stronger people have always been crushing the others;it's like that.What you have to think about is that when the others(the arabs,africans,asiatics etc)are gonna be stronger(one day it'll happen),they're not gonna make presents to us so let's take the most of it while we are still stronger.And imagine ,if those people wouldn't be our slaves,the effects on the prices;imagine if petroleum wouldn't belong to us;the price of petrol."We don't think like that for decades in europe.The lack of democracy in the european union is one of the reasons why far right parties grow stronger.
See above... (Hitro)
It's a liberal party that attracts young voters. It isn't openly hostile against anyone. It is xenophobic though and get voters among the old, retired real nazis.
Again, this party isn't hostile against anyone. Wants to cut down on immigration.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
Utter nonsense.
Israel is not a fascist state, nor is Sharon a Nazi. The misuse of these terms is a common mistake in the young and garbled.
The victory of Le Pen is not a tragedy, but a triumph for reason and the right way over the evil of the left. May it be just the first of many.
And it has been portrayed by the media as some sort of horror story, as compared to the democratic consequence of people taking the electorate for granted, and ignoring them. This leads to people going for an alternative in something more than a protest vote.
And it is always good to see the Euro-socialists seriously vexed and in tears because the people didn't understand that they don't know what is good for them.
And I do think that we have not heard the last of Herr Haider, either.
Panda
Metal head
Which means that France has a population (barring foreigners) of 110+ million. Yet another quality fact from Iceblaze.
I'm glad these guys aren't in power, considering that the conservatives already arrange massacres.
And I do think that we have not heard the last of Herr Haider, either.
Ever since the return from his excursion to Iraq last February, Herr Haider has laid down his parliament mandate and been focusing on his duties as state premier of Carinthia while waiting for charges to be raised against him.
GenghisK
...
I would like to add some corrections.
Le Pen is indeed very dangerous, but I am specially worrying about Bruno Megret. Once a follower of Le Pen, he left the Front National to create something worse. He actually is much more dangerous than Le Pen, because he's much more discrete but acts horribly. His speech are even more awful than Le Pen, and fortunately, he "only" got 2% (something like that I don't remember). Megret is a clever man, graduated from the Ecole Polytechnic (the most famous university in France, kinda MIT/Berkeley/Stanford in the US) is a brilliant thinker but therefore a devil man. We talk a lot about Le Pen but don't forget to fight an even worse ennemy, Megret.
Sliding off topic, I don't think Sharon's behaviour is nazi but I don't agree with his ideas neither. I think he's going too far too and that's why I bitterly miss Iszaac Rabbin.
Le Pen is indeed very dangerous, but I am specially worrying about Bruno Megret. Once a follower of Le Pen, he left the Front National to create something worse. He actually is much more dangerous than Le Pen, because he's much more discrete but acts horribly. His speech are even more awful than Le Pen, and fortunately, he "only" got 2% (something like that I don't remember). Megret is a clever man, graduated from the Ecole Polytechnic (the most famous university in France, kinda MIT/Berkeley/Stanford in the US) is a brilliant thinker but therefore a devil man. We talk a lot about Le Pen but don't forget to fight an even worse ennemy, Megret.
Sliding off topic, I don't think Sharon's behaviour is nazi but I don't agree with his ideas neither. I think he's going too far too and that's why I bitterly miss Iszaac Rabbin.
SuperR
Guardian Of The Treasure
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
More in depth political analysis...
Ah, it is good to see my fellow denizens of the far right on the rise...Le Pen, Haider and others. At the least it provides a proper counterbalance to the evil creeping communism of the Eurocrats and socialists.
The right is right
I hope you'll not be shocked if I tell you that your views are not popular anywhere in the world where democracy prevails, a concept you seem to defend by supporting anti-democratic ideologies...
Extreme ideologies, may they be far in the left or in the right, are outdated, undemocratic and unapplicable to a society without witnessing evident flaws on the political, economical, and social level.
I certainly do not support Le Pen/Haider/any over-nationalistic view, and I cannot understand why there was so much abstentions in the French elections. In my opinion, unfair treatment of immigrants preached by Le Pen will only give them (the immigrants, the poor, whatever) a reason to include terrorism as a solution to settle the problem in their own perspective.
It is simply TOO radical. Therefore, these people should not go through with a state's power and should never to. IT's a shame the Apartheid lasted that long, and "common sense", as S. Darkshade put it, is NOT to alienate minorities, but on the contrary, to put them in the mix, whether by assimilation/melting pot (like Germany, US to an extent), or by multicultural approach (ex: Canada). Note that both are more acceptable than saying "La France aux francais" or these kinda things.
Originally posted by Panda
Which means that France has a population (barring foreigners) of 110+ million. Yet another quality fact from Iceblaze.
>>> No, that means france has a population of 59 million.
19% is almost a fifth. 12 million is a fifth of 60 million.
Dont argue with me, I'm in top class in math
I'm glad these guys aren't in power, considering that the conservatives already arrange massacres.
>>> Massacres? Again accusations with no proof, something the europeans like a lot. They seem to ignore 'Innocent untill proven guilty' in democracy.
GenghisK
...
Massacre is maybe not the appropriate term but I doubt you can deny that lot of civilians got killed by bombing. Of course bombs are aimed to military but they also did civilian casualties. Would you deny that? I think nobody is innocent in this war. And in any other war. A human life is a human life.
Oh and there's also a surprising thing that newspapers write:
".... blablabla serious loss for Israel army, 25 soldiers killed.... blablabla... great victory... blablabla 100+ palestinian military killed..." I won't comment it. They are humans too aren't they.
Oh and there's also a surprising thing that newspapers write:
".... blablabla serious loss for Israel army, 25 soldiers killed.... blablabla... great victory... blablabla 100+ palestinian military killed..." I won't comment it. They are humans too aren't they.
Originally posted by Hitro
To IceBlaZe: I don't think that all these 17% are racists. There are effectivly big problems with crime and violence in European cities, often connected to poor people, who are often immigrants. So it's easy for people like Le Pen to talk about "security" to get the people to vote for him. That doesn't mean they're all racist, they just want the abstract thing called security, sounds quite familiar, doesn't it?
I never said all those 17% are racists, but I also never said all 5.6% of the nationalist parties voters in Israel are racist.
I got nothing against jewish people but i think Israel shouldn't be existing.
A jewish state?It is a faschist state.
>>> Israel is a democratic state with full rights to everyone who is not jewish. The non jews consist 19% of the Israeli population and still have the right to board to Israel based on immigration laws. Jews get a much higher priority, because all the things we passed and still pass in the foreign world. Antisemitism today in Europe is almost like seeing the events before the holocaust happening again.
Let's recall that,unlike what is said,many israelis don't stem from hebrews.
Israel existed 3000 years ago and hebrews were expelled nearly 2000 years ago.
It's as if Hitler had succeeded to make a superior Germany with occupied territory as Lebensraum or Mussolini to recreate the roman empire with non-italian lands as territories.
>>> No one said Israel is a country only for hebrews
First,they expelled the Palestinians and settled.
>>> We legally bought lands and legally declared them as a country following a UN resolution that only one side didn't follow, and that wasn't us.
Then,after a war,there should be a treaty about the occupied territories.Occupied territories after wars have no right.
>>> Indeed there was a treaty, Egypt and Jordan gave us the west bank and Gazza.
Eventually,what's doing Sharon is simply nazism.
Burning all references about palestinians(every written document about palestinian proporties etc),what's done in palestinian cites are nazist acts.
>>> Stop making up stories. Israel never did that! And if you again accuse us with burning things at least bring proof.
The only places I can see burning jewish places and attacking jews on the street is FRANCE. Still I dont call you nazies.
And when i hear a sionist sayin Israel is our land;it's written in the Torah;i say why shouldn't the western countries occupy israel?It's where Jesus was born;it's written in the Bible.
>>> Zionists legally bought lands in Israel and didn't deplete palestiniens illegaly
It's true that our attraction to Israel is because of religion at start, but that doesn't mean we can't buy lands legally.
If europeans or americans would think like that,the entire world would belong to em.We would say"to think that stronger people should let the others live is an utopia.Stronger people have always been crushing the others;it's like that.What you have to think about is that when the others(the arabs,africans,asiatics etc)are gonna be stronger(one day it'll happen),they're not gonna make presents to us so let's take the most of it while we are still stronger.And imagine ,if those people wouldn't be our slaves,the effects on the prices;imagine if petroleum wouldn't belong to us;the price of petrol."We don't think like that for decades in europe.The lack of democracy in the european union is one of the reasons why far right parties grow stronger.
>>> Israel never said the whole world should belong to it. You are just making up facts and far-fetched strange and bizzare stories.
FACT: The zionists legally bought land, therfor making the reason of their settlement not important
FACT: The arabs opened the war at us trying to deplete us, not vice versa.
Greadius
:yeah:
There were at least 4 other left wing candidates; she was the most extreme of the bunch.
Take a second look at her platform. Its the same crap every Communist who partook in the mass murder, property stealing, and denial of basic human rights preached. She preaches a dictatorship of the proletariat... we've all seen what Communists mean when they say THAT! And that isn't antidemocratic??That is my point! The BBC fluffed Arlette whatshername like some sort of sweet old lady. She was more extreme to the French system than Le Pen is! In my opinion, it would have been just as bad if SHE had won. But since she is closer to the BBC ideology it was okay... which goes back to why I think these systems can prop up candidates and parties that don't have a chance in winning, and why the media can't be impartial and more choices is preferable. But that was a different arguement.
Every war consumes life.
I don't think you should be sorry for terrorists dying... as for palestinien civilians, well.
what can I tell you?
War is imperfect.
We did our best to hurt as much terrorists and as less soldiers, and we lost soldiers as a result of that.
The palestiniens got every chance to evacuate because the IDF said 'Civilians go' in loudspeakers. Not in this way... but you get what I mean.
Anyhow, I never denied that civilians died. I never died that its a tragedy. But, jenin was the largest terror center in this world.
They created the largest amount of terrorist-made rockets (Qassam II), largest amount of explosives and dynamite belts, and 'exported' the largest amount of suicide bombers.
They should have thought about that before doing it.
They knew that sooner or later, if so many Israelies die as a result of terrorists in jenin, and the palestiniens do nothing to stop them, SOMEONE must do something.
If you ask me I wouldn't be too sorry if Jenin didn't exist.
According to your so favorable UN 'Resolutions', there is one resolution that says a refugee camp should not be used for military purposes.
Well guess who ignored that.
You cant say Israel shouldn't fight because the terrorists use civilians as human shields - the palestiniens will bare the results of their own actions sooner or later. Better sooner than later.
Not fighting terrorism will be a disaster to the free world.
GenghisK
...
And though the missed prime minister Rabbin managed to get a peaceful solution and he got killed. So why can't Sharon act the same way instead of going for a senseless war. You know, I remember an Israel woman whose son died in a suicide bombing saying: my son is victim of the victim of Israel...
Terrorism is very bad. But not only terrorism.
Terrorism is very bad. But not only terrorism.
The peace process on Rabin's time was stuck.
The most far-reaching offer for peace was made in 2000 by barak, and that one again, was, declined by the palestiniens!
They did not only decline our offer but arafat abandoned camp david and refused to negotiate. Then he went back... organized the palestiniens for another intifada, waited for some event that will fool people and declared it.
Maruan Baraguti himself told the Israeli minister-at-time Ben-Ami that if the peace negotiations wont go any further something bad will happen in mid-2000.
Well his 'predictions' were not completely accurate... arafat 'spontanosaly' delcared the intifada at september, but I think maruan baraguti is a prophet!
Israel also, agreed to the american cease fire offer, before passover.
But when we retreat and our civilians die day after day, and the palestineins do nothing against terror (again) I dont think we should wait any longer for action.
Peace is important, but so is the lives of our citizens.
EDIT:
Interestingly enough. I found this on CNN:
lol
Anyhow, to further immense the mistakes and unbased claims by media and UN 'experts'.
You remember when they said the refugee camp was flattened?
They didn't say a part of the refugee camp, they didnt say as a result of war, they said the refugee camp was flattened.
Anyhow, here are before the operation and after the operation aerial views of the refugee camp:
Before:
After:
you can see, in the center, which is the only part the press photographed, is indeed flattened.
But the rest of the camp is completely okay!
I wish the press didn't photograph things and forget details so much that things are taken out of context.
Anyhow, to further immense the mistakes and unbased claims by media and UN 'experts'.
You remember when they said the refugee camp was flattened?
They didn't say a part of the refugee camp, they didnt say as a result of war, they said the refugee camp was flattened.
Anyhow, here are before the operation and after the operation aerial views of the refugee camp:
Before:
After:
you can see, in the center, which is the only part the press photographed, is indeed flattened.
But the rest of the camp is completely okay!
I wish the press didn't photograph things and forget details so much that things are taken out of context.
