1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[GS] Jersey system broken after Late Antarctic Summer patch? 1.0.0.314(414696)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Tiktaalik, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. Tiktaalik

    Tiktaalik Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Chicago
    According to the patch notes:

    [SYSTEMS]
    • Add secondary color to jersey selection color collision detection. Now jerseys are only considered to have collided if BOTH primary color and secondary color collide. Jerseys with similar or identical primary colors are now allowed if the secondary colors are very different
    However, I have Australia and Brazil in my Hungary game, and neither are utilizing the jersey system. It used to be implemented for single player, but did that change?

    Spoiler :

    20190403090729_1.jpg


    Edit: Color-blind options are no better than the default color scheme for improving civ distinguishability.
    Spoiler :

    Colorblind test.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  2. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    14,137
    It's basically a lot more conservative about changing the jersey. Both colors have to be similar in order to have a change.

    Brazil and Australia have similar secondary colors, but the primary colors are easily distinguishable shades of green.
     
  3. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,463
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI, USA
    Those all seem quite easily distinguishable.
     
  4. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,453
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    As with anything to do with colour perception, speak for yourself :p

    I can distinguish Hungary from Australia via their secondary colours (orange vs a brighter yellow), but their greens are very similar. Brazil, in the same screenshot, has to me a clearly lighter shade of green.

    I think for a jersey system to make any sense it has to be pretty unconservative. You don't see two football teams both wearing shades of green very often.
     
    Icicle, j51 and Tiktaalik like this.
  5. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,372
    Something tells me you didn't notice there were three different civs in that picture. Which of course is the problem. :p
     
    Atlas627 and Tiktaalik like this.
  6. Kwami

    Kwami Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,331
    If you're having trouble with the different greens, then try enabling one of the color blind modes. That might help. Otherwise, I'm glad for this change. I didn't like seeing so many civs using secondary or tertiary color palettes.
     
    Hawke9 likes this.
  7. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,463
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI, USA
    I think he wasn't having difficulty, he was just relating the change we have. I believe it was already true that Brazil and Hungary would be allowed in this state.
     
  8. Futumch

    Futumch Calm as a Coma

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    142 E 42 S
    I was tinkering around with the updated definitions and completely stuffed my settings up somehow : )

    In that picture up above, Hungary and Australia are using the same primary colour (dark green) and Brazil is using medium green. I can see how people might have difficulty picking up yellow vs gold against a green background though.
    Come to think of it, I thought Hungary's first choice of colour combinations was light green and red? It may have been too hard on the eyes and changed.
    (just checked, Hungary now uses dark green / medium orange as first choice)

    Edit: I hate emoticons
     
  9. Arianrhod

    Arianrhod Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    After looking at it for a few seconds, sure. But if you need to look at color-coded UI for a few seconds to understand what it's trying to tell you, it's probably pretty worthless.

    There should at least be a slightly stricter setting for Jerseys that doesn't require players to flat out turn the color red off. I feel that a 'protanomalous' setting that still allows red unit colors (including barbarians), but is harsher about which colors are considered to overlap would be extremely useful.
     
    Josephias likes this.
  10. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,463
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI, USA
    No offense, but that sounds more like a mod setting to me. Unessential, but for some a useful quality of life item.
     
  11. Tiktaalik

    Tiktaalik Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Chicago
    These are the various options for color-blind modes. Unfortunately, none of these modes are particularly better than the default color scheme for distinguishing colors that are this close together. If the jersey system does not activate when three civilizations share a green-primary yellow/orange-secondary color palette then it is essentially non-functioning. While I sympathize that some people did not like the secondary or tertiary color palettes, that is no reason to remove functionality in the game that was necessary for some people to distinguish between different color palettes. A compromise solution could be to give players the option to switch various civilizations' color palettes mid-game as they are encountered.

    Spoiler :

    Colorblind test.jpg
     
  12. Josephias

    Josephias Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    806
    I guess the fact he was focusing in Australia vs Brazil (that did not trigger the Jersey either pre-patch), instead of Australia vs Hungary (that would have triggered pre-patch) may lead to think he did not even distinguish Hungary was there (I didn't either, but it is true also that Brazil and Australia Warriors are the ones centered in the screenshot, while hungary units/cities are more in the borders, which may help as well to not notice them)

    I think this

    and this
    are the key points here: Jersey system is not "broken" per se after the patch, but turns out prettly meaningless. Now you need a great deal much more similar combinations of two colors for it to run: you can have Canada and Japan, in example (plus Scotland and Turkey), painting the map White, and no jersey is triggered. I have not checked many other combos by now, but probably there are very similar cases with other colors.

    My main gripe with pre-patch Jersey system is not that it triggered to easy, it was it was based on a reduced set of highly-saturated (for differentiation) color sets, which allowed for few easy-to-the eye combos (at least not easy-to-my-eye. Note: highly saturated purple makes eyes itch for some people). This was already bad with some primary colors, and secondary colors were much worse.
    Added some colors, modded the secondary sets to actually diverge in primary colors AND make sense to the civ, and it was fun to expect which civ would change color in a new game.

    With the new ruleset the modding strategy has to change 180 degrees: mod-in several additional shades of color so the primaries do not exactly match, as they will not change so often… plan the secondary colors so the very-similar primary shades have different secondaries, and play without jerseys (or may be just a single alternate color just in the very rare case...). It will lose diversity, and it would be a wasted feature, but hey, it is just the way civ has been normally.
     
    Atlas627, Futumch and j51 like this.
  13. j51

    j51 Blue Star Cadet

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,041
    Location:
    Ping Island
    Yeah, at least the previous jersey system made sense, even if it led to some garish combos. This new system defeats the whole purpose of even implementing a jersey system in the first place.
     
  14. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    3,057
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    On Earth
    TBH.. with all the already devised solutions via various Mods, i feel the Jersey systems (pre **and** post patch) can still be tamed rather easily for anyone willing to tackle just a few personally customized SQL instructions.

    I fully expect Janboruta's perfectionist alternatives to explore even more newly competent combinations in his next "version". Calypso also did a fine job with his own stuff.

    To me, it all sums up in one very simple proverbial twist of brainy spice -- Matter of taste(s) beyond any (ir-)rational Artistic choice(s).
     
    j51 and Eagle Pursuit like this.
  15. Futumch

    Futumch Calm as a Coma

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    142 E 42 S
    I plan to add back in some unique colours and allocate them to a few of the civs to diversify them a bit more. I will just append the existing xml files.
    As an Australian, of course I will start with the colours Castleton and Wattle. I'll add a Tan, Lavender, Burgundy, Sepia, Smoke, Cadet Grey, Salmon and a couple of yellows.
     
  16. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,635
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    It seems that now the jersey system will primarily be used for multiplayer games considering no two Civs have both the same primary and secondary color, to my knowledge.
     
  17. Josephias

    Josephias Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    806
    I think there is some cases, and some can be triggered too, maybe by cummulation. I did a 10 “white civ” test yesterday, using

    White Main color
    Japan (dark red secondary)
    Georgia (mid orange secondary)
    Turkey (dark green secondary)
    Scotland (mid blue secondary)

    White Jerseys
    France (dark yellow secondary)
    Poland (light red secondary)
    England (mid red secondary) - might have used Canada instead, which would have made 5 White main colors
    Greece (light blue secondary)
    Australia (dark blue secondary)
    Phoenicia (dark purple secondary)


    See the cast:
    Spoiler :

    Whitefest.png


    Of all these, only Victoria and Curtin triggered a jersey change (I guess Curtin because the system - as it did before - considers dark purple = dark blue, but for Vicky I can only consider some more complex logic applieas on cummulation of several similar options - Vicky, Hojo, Jadwiga, Cdm, Tamara... - as I have had Hojo and Laurier as White without problems) before.

    When joining different civs, it felt like playing a parcheesi game. Of course, you could still distinguish between them, but it feels like something is missing
    Spoiler :

    Whitefest-Parchis.png
    Meeting of spec ofps for Robert, Dido, Tamar, Hojo and Soliman - Vicky's unit has been made go away from the group, as they don't follow the "White dress" etiquette… :)


    So yes, answering your question -> normally you won't have jersey switches in a normal game unles you force in some situation like the one shown above (much more difficult with just primary jerseys, which is the single player game case).


    Just to complete the discussion, my feelings on why the secondary color introduction "messed up" with the system (in the sense it is now very difficult to trigger it in single player)

    - Secondary colors are treated with the same degree of strenght than primary colors now.
    - We still have only a three layer per hue (light, dark, mid) color pallete. (Except White-black range that has 4)
    - "Requirement to switch" tresholds have been kept the same: basically, with some exceptions (dark purple - dark blue, and dark orange - mid red are the usual ones), you need to be same hue and same darkness. Whith the diference now this requirement has to bee meet both by primary and secondary color.

    My 2 cents on how this should work
    - Secondary colors should be valued "less" than primary colors (or which is the same: treshold to switch for "similar" secondary colors should be lower, once primary colors are over the treshold).
    - Equal primaries should always switch, but
    - Additional shades should be considered.

    In example:
    - make it so you manage 5 layers per hue (lets call them clear, light, middle, intense and dark, or for easier "calculation" : 0,1,2,3,4)
    - use current hues or maybe add an additional one in the yellow-green-aqua range (allowing for "pale" greens and "vivid" greens). As far as I have seen, Hues are defined by %RGB value relationsips (where at least one is at 100% and other at 0%, with the 3rd one being either 100%, 50% or 0%) -> So in exampe reds are 100%R, 0%G, 0%B, Magentas are 100%R, 0%G, 100%Blue, and Purples are 50%R, 0%G, 100%Blue.
    - use a "point" system like the following:

    Primaries.
    similar hue: +2 points (meaning all RGB values keep the same % range)
    near hue: +1 point (meaning 1 of the RGB values varies a 50%).
    similar darkness level (this is, no level difference): +2 points
    near darkness level (this is, 1 level difference): + 1 point
    equal color: +1 extra point.

    Secondaries:
    similar darkness level (up to 1 level difference): +1 point
    similar hue (up to 1 color 50% difference): +1 points

    You should get a value >5 to switch (this is always granted for equal primaries: 2 by similar hue + 2 by similar darkness + 1 extra point), but in all other similar primary cases you Will need start at most at +3 (+2 by equal hue but +1 only by near darkness - or vice versa), and you Will need seconaries to be also in a similar range for the color switch to be triggered. Provided you do not have any civ with the "all jerseys have equal primary" situation of the Netherlands, normally there should be one of the jerseys that does not run the trigger.




    I'd concurr to this, except the stated above - you now need to force in very specific combos if you want jersey switchs in single player (otherwise, just configure the civs to the color you want).
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
    Jkchart likes this.
  18. BK*

    BK* Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2019
    Messages:
    52
    Gender:
    Male
    I hate ot and just mod this system out.
     

Share This Page