JFC1: Spacecakes


No, no, please. Please.
Mar 16, 2006

JFC1: Spacecakes

* BTS 3.13 with Rhye's and Fall of Civilization
* Dutch Empire, Monarch
* we must win by space
* 3000 BC start ("unlocked" file from RFC subforum)
* 15-turn turnsets; please post got it or skip within 24, then save within another 48

RFC is pretty consistent. If an AI wins a late victory, the victor tends to be one of the same top civs. Likewise, a given strategy for a given civ tends to either work or not work in every game. Here we want an unconventional victory from a minor civ. It could be anywhere from impossible to fairly easy. If you've tried it or have a lot of experience playing the Dutch, please don't post spoilers. If we fail I'd like to consider trying again with a different strategy, but you don't have to commit to that to sign up.

* :smoke: optional

I'm not all that familiar with RFC, having only played it a few times, so I'd be interested in giving this a go. Sign me up!
SP no longer looks that appealing after having tasted SG, so I'll apply for a spot in the roster.

RFC's speed is marathon, isn't it? I must admit I've never played it.
Great! We're good to go.

(revised from draft)

Here's a quick overview of RFC:
Spoiler :
* start with the PDF in the mod folder
* slightly different tech tree
* different national wonders (3 per city) and wonders
* rise of civs (not relevant for this game since we start late)
* fall of civs via very important stability mechanic documented in Harrier's Guide to Stability.
* plague - if you don't aggressively build health buildings and/or keep a health surplus (and even then) you may catch it along with everyone else and lose units, pop, cottage growth, and health.
* many little differences in costs and AI behavior
* you can put cities 2 tiles apart
I hope nobody minds playing with fully spoiled knowledge of the map. RFC:Bts Atlas. Please start another game to inspect worldwide resources, but here's our neighborhood. (Dye and corn appear in France later.)

And here's our start. We're at turn 183 out of 480, basically Normal speed. I'm up for 15 but would like to talk first, and may stop again.

* Paris is always at B6.
* Berlin is always at I4, but from the strong culture it looks like he has another city closer. From diplo screen I see he has Hamburg and Warschau, so I think it's Hamburg at G3. I'm not sure if me opening the diplo screen counts as "first contact" for diplo. I didn't offer him anything. He's Cautious and won't open borders.
* You can see Roman culture to the south. (Sometimes they will have collapsed instead).
* We'll get 2 workers the turn after we settle the capital.
* On turn 2 some of the neighboring borders might fall back for a turn or two, giving us a chance to settle some place like F1-5. But if he's got Munich at G3, F2-4 are blocked.
* It looks like a fairly typical Christian Europe.

City 13 is probably Beijing. It could be Babylon or even Egypt, but I don't think those civs could have built Notre Dame by then. Looks like a strong China, so I'm hoping they'll be an interesting space competitor. City 12 is probably Delhi (they like the Oracle). City 10 smells Roman and city 9 is almost definitely Rome. City 5, with the AP, is probably Athens (1600 BC).

Given our foreknowledge I think we can discuss strategy up front:
* grand strategy: how can we beat Germany, England, USA, etc to space?
* European strategy: conquest? culture war? diplo?
* foreign settlement strategy: how much, where, when, how? (our "area of historical expansion" for stability is undocumented, but one historical reference is here).
* lowlands dotmap
* initial civics

Having looked at the map and thought about our UB, I'm optimistic that in general a strong Amsterdam (Channel Tunnel, Opera House, Trading Company, maybe National Park) and colony cities could get us where we're going. With apologies for the spoiler, playing Babylon I did something like that with Bureaucracy, Representation, and settled great people, and that was enough. If we could get the full fat cross with the above wonders on E3, I think we'd be in really strong shape, the game might even be too easy. That said, Munich is actually in E3's fat cross, and Paris is right on the other side. But even without an uberuber capital, our outstanding UB should pimp our colonies in a serious way, allowing us to have a lot of them with a lot of infrastructure.

If we want to move on France or Germany, we had better squeeze in 2 or 3 cities for maximum production, and settle E5 or F5 in order to flip the Iron tile at E6. I think it would be hard, but it might be worth it.

Regarding techs and diplo, it's worth pointing out that we have Guilds / Divine Right / Engineering on the 3 neighbors we have met.

If we want colonies (and I mean that in an informal sense not the BtS sense, which isn't really supported in RFC anyway), our unique power (UP) - all ships explore rival territory - would let us start early. If we want to play it relatively safe stability-wise, we could simply head to South Africa followed by Australia and Indonesia. The Crossbowmen that we start with would school the Impis that spawn in southern Africa.

It's also worth considering whether or not we should pursue two out of 3 historical victory conditions for the Triumphal Arch + Golden Age. From discussion on the RFC forum I think the explored territory and Australian city are the easiest, but the former would require some commitment to Optics and Caravels.

@Sweetacshon re expansion for stability. I do think we have ample opportunity, if we want it, to build new offshore cities "historically approved" locations. But for the economy factor itself, I think growth can be safely be slow as long as it's nonnegative - or, you can settle down in the Commonwealth civic. Growth can come for example from pop growth, maturing cottages, or I think other things like buildings and settled great people (not sure though.)

I could go on (generally I can be very verbose in SGs), but what do you all think about strategy and our opening moves?
Whoa! Stability mechanics! I've gone crosseyed. :crazyeye:

How many are you waiting for, Jet?

edit - I am a RFC noob, but just from scanning the maps and stability mechs, We don't have a lot of land to work with (historically, and bearing in mind stability), so if we want to expand landwise, we'll have to make up for it for stability in other ways. I suppose that is the issue.

Is it possible (in the opinion of the more experienced RFCers) to make an indepth plan before seeing how the world is wrt wars, religion, and unclaimed free space for settling?
I think we should consider moving on Germany soonish as well. They are pretty quick to declare for grabbing "their" land, but on the same hand they often collapse quick if moved on early. This could be a big production and relations boost. Who are they friendly with? We should probably chummy up to the French to keep us safe from Izzy, who usually takes some work to befriend.

Circumnavigation should be considered, and having the most map shouldn't be hard either.We just need to be atleast #2 or 3 with optics. I suggest having some explorers ready by this time to grab the coastal huts and explore the americas/australia. The map trading can help keeping deficit research going. Oh and the conquest armies for reaching aztecs/mayas first too...
I'm happy enough to have a crack at Germany (England is pleased, France cautious), But then again, getting started on the colony route has synergies with getting 2 of the HVCs, not to mention the raping, pillaging, and exploiting we can do overseas.
We shouldn't have to worry too much with Britian. It'd be nice to get in touch with the Russians, chances are they have border tensions with Germany. I forgot we can slip our ships by the spanish without open borders. Grabbing those gold mines in Africa could be nice. But maybe we should wait until we can get a worker to travel down there too? Maintenace will be tough this early and besides Portugal's carracks we're safe until Astronomy. We could get a scout together by then to knock out the map as well.
Just looked at the save. I'd say settle Amsterdam in place, then we'll see how the borders fall and decide on the others. That should give us a glimpse of germany's military. I'm sure we'll need a few trebs and knights.

I would send one galley down to gibraltar and the other to the north sea for now. That will close up all our nearby contacts. If we get a trade open with Mali they vassal up when we settle Africa. We'll probably need Berlin and another city to make the population.

England is annoyed with France, and if time has its way again they'll probably be warring with the Vikings soon. So we can ex them off any diplomacy hopes for the most part. Maybe Spain and France will be on better relations. Portugal and Spain will inevitably war before long too. We should keep our nose clear of that conflict, or be prepared to take sides.
I think starting units are pretty consistent, and they haven't had much time to build more. They should have 1-2 LBs/city; Germany ~8 swords/axes; France whatever flipped in Bordeaux and Marseilles. France also has Brest, and enough on his hands right now (and I don't think he means Brest.)

Let's decide where to put the start city and whether to do a military buildup.

How about 1E? It has more land tiles, and we can probably get them by war or culture if we really want them.

+ gain 2-4 great cites nearby
+ vs Germany, remove a space rival; vs France, get wine/dye/corn
+ secure tiles for our capital without culture war
+/- daring, but risky
- stability hit from foreign culture and tiles outside historical area; risk of revolts after Nationalism
- slow start on colonization
- diplo complications

I'm against war because I think we can get just as good cities overseas with less risk. But I think it's OK to try as long as we commit to it fully.
1E isn't bad but we'll lose the immediate sea resource until borders pop. We d have two workboats waiting. Looks like France is unstable as well, while germany is solid. Hmmm. My guess is France and Spain are on the verge of war? They have peace treaty with England.

Bad on one hand - those are the slower of the colonizers, and would be good friends. Atleast Izzy only gets in our way with Africa. Spaine usually keep Portugal occupied, while France is pumping out wonders.

Good as we may get cities from the rebels, or could use the war to get diplo bonus with Izzy and further the collapse along.
So what do you think, folks? If there are no more comments I think I'd settle 1E (the first few turns being less important if not preparing for war); make nice with our neighbors (possibly giving up techs if asked); send the second settler to Africa unless a good local spot appears; and do some culture war, researching toward Drama/Music and/or running artists in caste system for a culture bomb.

But please comment!
I'm ok with 1E here. I don't really like the idea of going to africa yet though, but agree we should start soon. I'm just afriad if we don't settle that land south of Amsterdam then Germany will. We'll also get a chance to grab the Roman cities if they flip. Rome + Church of Nativity could solve any maintenance issues from colonizing.
I'm just afriad if we don't settle that land south of Amsterdam then Germany will.

I don't really understand... where would he put a city?

How does Denmark/Scandinavia look at this stage of the game? I can see room north of Germany.. what about settling up there?
^ 2S or S-SE of Hamburg appear to be possible.

Scandinavia is probably fully occupied by Ragnar, but 1S of the Pigs (Copenhagen) would be OK if German culture falls back to let us settle there and possibly if we can't find any better place. If we put the capital 1E then Copenhagen would steal at least one tile from it, but that would probably be made up for by the pigs and whatever water tiles it could get.
Ended my round at Jolly Roger.

I'm documenting myself on the Mod and mechanics as it's quite different from normal play.

As my advice right now would be quite :smoke: I'll go with what the majority says until I know more about the Mod.
Ended my round at Jolly Roger.

I'm documenting myself on the Mod and mechanics as it's quite different from normal play.

As my advice right now would be quite :smoke: I'll go with what the majority says until I know more about the Mod.
Yea 2S or 2S-E, just depends on how his cities and the borders fall. This is what happened in my current game as the Spanish and Willem decided to settle elsewhere.... :lol:

Top Bottom