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JFD's The Papal States (Pius IX) for Vox Populi

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by HungryForFood, Apr 21, 2018.

  1. hokath

    hokath King

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    Oh yes, they legalised cannabis in Canada, didn't they?

    Otherwise OCC is cool. Perhaps Disciple converts City States, like a religious Venice.
    Anyway this is all changing the original civ quite a bit, probably best do an alternate leader.
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The fact that it is Pius IX is precisely why I suggested what I did. Pius IX oversaw the dissolution of the Papal States. As a reaction to his loss of political power, he doubled down on his Ecclesiastical power. He came out strongly against the ideas of separation of church and state and instituted the doctrine of papal infallibility. Lastly, he made it official catholic doctrine that any state with a majority catholic population which did not make Catholicism its state religion was explicitly in direct conflict with Catholic doctrine. A sort of religious ‘rogue state’. It is bizarre to choose Pius IX as leader of a civ, and then not incorporate any of his policies or legacy as part of the civ.

    Disciples don’t convert, since they don’t replace missionaries or GProphets. Making an OCC that takes over city states would be beating a dead horse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  3. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    Could AI handle that? It would be very weak when it doesn't have a vassal.
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    With a flavour towards spreading religion I don’t see a problem. No settling and no warring means focusing on spreading and wonders, same as the player. It would be a very narrowly focused civ, using my recommendation, but that would actually make the AI quite adept with it. Hardcore Tradition civ, though. Harder than Arabia even.
     
  5. Jarula

    Jarula King

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    No way the proposition to city statify it makes it impossibly weak.

    How about add the wonders and drop the chapels or better yet allow the Swiss gaurd to upgrade.
     
  6. Jarula

    Jarula King

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    Actually curious could one of you help me with doing a custom civ Constatine the great's Rome?

    Basically ua

    The save buildings from conquest
    +15% towards cap buildings

    UW seven wonders of Rome unique wonders that can only be built once and only in capital
    Not destroyed on conquest

    3 uUs
    UB curia similar to arena Sept the abilities are changed provides +1% culture +1%faith global
    And +1 culture faith scaling with era upon building construction/purchase

    UU got to think of them

    Unique decisions

    1 adopt religion your capital becomes a holy city for religion

    2 Build new capital / wonder you can build imperial palace in a city creating a new capital...
     
  7. hokath

    hokath King

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    You just can't have a forced vassalization UA. It would feel absolutely awful to play against. It would be so disruptive. I dare say it would be horrifically OP as well, especially with a bonus to conversion strength. If you don't start near a heavy-religion civ like India or Spain you're going to have what, 3 or 4 vassals on a standard sized map before the Industrial Era. If that doesn't just win you the game with yield bonuses then vassals are no-good.

    Having said all that I have a perverse wish to try it xD
     
  8. Jarula

    Jarula King

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    Honestly the papal states should have an extra belief because like Byzantanium it suits them honestly more than the bonus towards missionary conversion rate...

    Leave the chapels honestly they are actually fair..
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    it sounds extremely fun to me... a completely different play style and win condition mechanic than everyone else. It needs to be powerful because they only have 1 city. You can counter it easily enough by declaring war on the Vatican and killing his missionaries, or investing in inquisitors if you have managed to get your own religion.
     
  10. HungryForFood

    HungryForFood Prince

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    Forced vassalisation is a bit much, since it's not like the modern Vatican has anything close to vassals. Vassalisation is also an extremely strong position over another civ to be gained from something as simple as spreading your religion.

    If we want to go the OCC route, something like gaining a % of yields from civs following your religion and a malus when warring you might work better. We should also be mindful that we are straying quite far from the original design here.

    There's also the other JFD Papal States which you should keep in mind, as I am interested in doing eventually. I'm thinking of having that go for a religion/diplomacy/some warmongering theme.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    You should check out the pastor aeternum and syllabus of errors for ideas. Forced vassalization with conversion is extreme, but so is blocking settling/annex/war. Double trade routes and expending GPs for owning city states is pretty extreme too. Vassalization also saves a lot of text in the description.

    What does vassalization get you?
    • A percentage of yields from that empire (necessary, because you only have 1 city, so a very small economic base)
    • War blocked (necessary, because OCCs are easy to kill)
    • Free unit on era (unnecessary, but not a major bonus. Gives a little crusader flair)
    • Votes in WC (seems appropriate)
    • % modifier on tourism (necessary, calls back to original mod, and tourism is most likely victory)
    I’ve seen cases where human players have vassalized themselves to another civ so they can focus on a science or cultural victory without worrying about military. It doesn’t seem to be a major imposition on the vassalized civ, especially if they capitaulate without severe damage to their own economy.

    WIth respect to the historicity, vassalization in civ closely mirrors what ultimate ecclesiastical power over a state religion might look like. As the leader of a majority religion in a foreign country, the pope has enormous political sway. We can see this today, where papal decrees and speeches make headlines around the world. Catholics take this extremely seriously, even today, but Pius IX was the chief architect of that. He shaped the papacy into the arbiter of catholic doctrine, and asserted the doctrinal power of the Holy See. You say the papacy never has anything resembling vassalization, but that was basically Pius’ end goal.

    Once again, I would encourage you to look at Pius IX’s Wikipedia page and get a sense of the man’s political acumen. You’ll see what I mean. An uncharitable reading of the syllabus of errors is that Pius - in reaction to his toys being taken away - declared himself god-emperor of Catholics and the Enemy of secular liberalism. And if more than half your populace are principally loyal to God/his earthly representative, then that causes a bit of a political issue for you doesn’t it? Who really controls the country? You? Or the person who commands the very souls of your citizenry and dictates their morals? This is the Popish plot, this is basically why Catholics weren’t allowed to hold office in the UK until 1829.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  12. HungryForFood

    HungryForFood Prince

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    Let's not do such a drastic change on a civ that works pretty well.

    Current UA expands on JFD's design, and being tourism focused already encourages Pius to play tall. If it ain't broken...

    I like some of your Chapel ideas though, perhaps I can incorporate them (different yields for theming bonus, great person points).
     
  13. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    I don't know how Disciples bonus :c5goldenage: are calculated, but most I got was 7. That's definitely some kind of bug.
    Edit - ok, so disciple is using old artist skill I think and this 7:c5goldenage: I saw is the length or GA they can create. Given that Great Artists no longer start GA, that's stupidly OP.

    As for Civ - I would like to see something else than touristy/CV civ. I just started atomic era now, have influential with everyone without actually trying - 10 wonders against Korea's 17 (despite being on an island with Byzantium on another island, so it's hard to convert anyone without passive pressure, so noone shares my religion). And just have to play and wait to have full ideologies :S
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
  14. HungryForFood

    HungryForFood Prince

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    Code:
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    v4
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    UB: Chapel (replaces Temple)
    - Increased production cost from 100 to 150.
    
    UU: Swiss Guard (replaces Landsknecht with More UCs)
    - Fixed not being able to upgraded (upgrades to Tercio).
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    v5
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    UA: Apostolic See
    - Faith to Palace, Great Works, National Wonders, and World Wonders decreased from +3 to +2.
    
    UB: Chapel (replaces Temple)
    - Theming bonus changed from 3 Faith, to 3 Gold/Golden Age Points/Culture for the Literature/Art/Music Chapels.
    
    UU: Disciple (standalone)
    - Now gives GAP when expended, like the current Great Artist (previously gave Golden Age turns like the old Great Artists).
    
    Event: The Holy See (for Enginseer's Community Event)
    - Choice 1: Free Great Person now requires Reinassance instead of Classical (in line with changes in Community Event).
    New version is up on Steam and Mediafire.
     
  15. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    UU: Swiss Guard (replaces Landsknecht with More UCs)
    - Fixed not being able to upgraded (upgrades to Tercio).

    Does it keep 100% :tourism: bonus? If so - it loses it's flavor. When I had Korea nuking everyone around me, nuclear submarines swimming on Vatican shore, but still had Swiss Guard for :tourism: bonus, it felt flavorful and really well designed.
     
  16. HungryForFood

    HungryForFood Prince

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    Yes, it is granted by a promotion, which is retained on upgrade. Easier to handle for the AI, so that I don't have to teach the AI not to upgrade some of their units.

    Just pretend they still wear their Swiss Guard uniforms at peace time. ;)
     
  17. HungryForFood

    HungryForFood Prince

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    Code:
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    v6
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    UB: Chapel (replaces Temple)
    - Now correctly gives -1 Unhappiness to religious intolerance, like the Temple (only applies to the first Chapel).
    
    UU: Swiss Guard (standalone) (requires 4UC)
    - Now a standalone unit (no longer replaces Landsknecht).
    
    Misc
    - Added icons for Papal promotions, credit to Asterix Rage.
    - Fixed default civ event (Brave New World) showing up when playing Papal States.
    New version up on Steam and Mediafire.
     

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