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Jheronimus leader of Germany - for everyone SG

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Jheronimus, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    298
    Ok, finished up and here's the rundown:

    Interturn--200AD: Founded Christianity. Teklenburg is our third Holy City. Sent missionary to Cologne. Sending Taoist missionary to settle in our new city to the north. Queues look good, fiddled with Governors a bit.

    Turn 1--240AD. Currency pops. Set research queue for Guilds. Order is Metal Casting, Machinery, Feudalism, Guilds. Move Bart, no Barb city there, Jher. Finished new worker, Fast Eddie at Tecklenburg. During these 10 turns, just assume that the workers are busy every turn. With the exception of hooking up the cows and dyes, they were building infrastructure and clearing forests and jungles next to cities, on hilltops and in river valleys. I built cottages on grasslands, farms on plains next to rivers, mines on hilltops until machinery, then windmills on new hills.

    Turn 2--280AD. Hamburg finishes National Epic. Look at possibles and realize that Chitzen Itza is perfect for it. It will increase the priest potential of its GPP points without devoting specialists, as well as increase our city defense by 25% just before we want to start producing knights and macemen and go adventuring. There doesn't seem to be any Barb cities around, doing some serious scouting over the next 8 turns.

    Turn 3--320AD. I forgot to send a military unit ahead of the settler before it popped, so I'm going to have to escort it northward. I lost you guys a few turns with this city, sorry about that. In any case, better safe than sorry.

    Turn 4--360AD. Cologne is converted to Christianity.

    Turn 5--400AD. New Settler cued in Munich. Metal casting comes in. Queue Forge in Cologne just in case you guys want to try for the Colossus.

    Turn 6--440AD. We receive our first Great Scientist. He founds his Academy in Berlin and we knock a turn off of our research time for Machinery. Beaker production goes through the roof. We had a choice of Paper as a tech, but I'm not that interested in Map trading right now.

    Turn 7--480AD--nothing special

    Turn 8--520AD--Frankfurt founded. Taoist immediately.

    Turn 9--560AD. Out of money. Drop Science rate to 60%, which increases research time for Feudalism from 4 to 6 turns. Not a big deal. We are right at where I was hoping to be as far as city spread by this point in time and far, far ahead in tech and with a better economy than I usually have to work with. Very, very sweet.

    Turn 10--600AD. Berlin near happiness and health limit. Asoka offers Calendar in exchange for Theology. I don't think so--he doesn't need the Sistine Chapel and Theocracy this early now, does he? Decided to try to get Calendar, anyway, though, (since we have dyes *and* bananas) for the cheapest tech possible. I managed to trade him Code of Laws for Calendar and 80 gold to move our tech slider back up for a bit. This will enable our cities to grow one additional point before hitting the happiness/health cap. I believe that'll set Berlin at a pop of 12 in the 7th Century. This will invalidate our obelisks, so we'll have to use temples and/or libraries to move cultural boundaries (or the occasional great artist.)

    Berlin needs to be handled delicately. It is putting out so much science now that we should race up the tech tree even at 40% science. This means no whipping when the city gets mad or sick, prevent it from getting that way by judicious use of specialists to keep it from going over max.

    Ok, Wreck, you're up. I'd suggest putting the next city in the spot that Jher suggested and picking up the horses, then hooking up the iron as soon as we can south of Berlin (or elsewhere if you can find some, or if some pops.) Once we do that, we should go to war before Khan and Asoka get any stronger. We had a well-over six tech lead on Asoka when I traded for Calendar. Keep the settlers coming for now, we can always back-fill our NW if we get cut off from the south or east. If we start getting low on cash, all we really need to do is build markets, and once we get Guilds, we can do Grocers, too.

    Where next for Tech? Construction for Catapults for sure. Music and Drama might be nice for quick culture in new cities. Optics to find the other continent and scope it out and Printing Press/Education/Democracy, since you don't want to use Caste System and we don't want to switch to Pacifism in a near-warmongering state. Representation would be very, very nice.

    Good luck, this was fun tonight.

    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Netherlands, Velp & Groningen
    Wow, we're doing real good :D :D :D this game is fun, Thanks for your play, Tom. We could use some workers near Frankfurt, maybe to chop down a forrest, this'll speed up development. We could also use some improvements there.

    Three religions, with three holy cities in one empire, that's massive, never had that before. But is it possible to spread three religions in one city, I know two will work but three? Or does one riligion than dissapear as soon as you spread a third one?

    And we still need to build a road between our most important cities; Hamburg and Berlin! My goodness, we can't allow these poor merchants to wade themselves through these dessert sands!

    Looks like we make a dream team together. Wreck, you're up next kick some (_,_) !
     
  3. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

    Joined:
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    Wreck, I sat up in bed last night and scared my wife by shouting MUSIC!!!

    Consider this:

    If we take a quick side-step to pick up Music, we can take the Great Artist we get and drop it into Cologne and create a Great Work. This will pop the borders twice immediately and we can get the iron, hook it up and mine it.

    We can then immediately start turning out Macemen in Hamburg when Chichen Itza is finished, Knights as soon as we get the NW horses linked up and Catapults soon after.

    We'll be ready for war in 20 or 30 turns.

    Tom
     
  4. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

    Joined:
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    Each religion after the first becomes harder to spread to a city. It is, however, possible to have all seven religions in one city.

    Tom
     
  5. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
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    331
    When a city has no religion, or just 1, missionaries are successful 100%. When it's got 2, and higher, the chance drops. One is all you really need (to get the benefits of the three religious civics that use them). But more can be nice, especially if you arrange to get multiple shrines and spend the effort spreading them all.
     
  6. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

    Joined:
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    OK, got the game... situation basically looks fine.

    600 OK, nobody out in our new city position. Moved the archer out of Frankfurt for this, and one over from Berlin to cover. Berlin at max pop, and I decided to whip. Hamburg will go faster if we make a forge there, so, delaying the wonder while I whip it out.

    640 Whip in Hamburg. Border pops in Cologne, so we can hook up the resources. Settler heads out to the horses site. Munich starts its forge.

    680 Whip in Munich. Mongolians have expanded west a big, almost to our river. Will want to push the middle with a new city I think.

    720 Feudalism completed. Tough decision, but I think I agree with Tom... Music. I want that Great Artist. But I am not so concerned about border-popping for our iron... we'll get that soon enough. I want to border pop the next city down the river, which doesn't exist yet.

    760 Aha... remember the place we found with the clams and crabs? Nice red sauce? Well, there's a large (border-popped) barb city over there. Hmm, looks tasty, so I am sending in the axemen.

    800 More barbs in the west. One axeman kills a warrior. An archer appears... will it attack my other axe in woods? And a barb axeman appears in the southwest, headed towards mine fortified in woods/hill.

    840 Socrates is born in Berlin. Hmm, tough decision. Should I merge him? Use him for another Academy? Well, none of our towns is ready for that yet. So, I merge him in Berlin. Berlin can use the hammer, too.

    880 Asoka asks for currency. Nope, sorry bud. Chicken Itza completes. Towns are now very defended. Personally, I never build the thing, but whatever. Now we can start using the heroic epic again, at least. The HE city (Hamburg) should concentrate on cranking out military, since it has its +100% hammers only when doing that. I am making macemen to go deal with the Tri-seafood city.

    Missionary fails in Cologne, even though just one religion there. Durn. I could use the +25% hammers, oh well. Try again later.

    920 Music completes. Great Artist moved to east. I choose to pursue Construction; mainly to speed workers around rivers (it gets bridge buildings). But also we will want catapults for any serious war.

    960 Woops, just realized that Hamburg need state religion. Well, a lot of places do. Working on it.

    1000 Success for missionaries in Essen and Tecklenburg. Set up my suggestions in queues and move orders for what to do next.
     
  7. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

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    In terms of what needs done... well, many things. Here's a list of items we need to work on, no particular order:
    • export Confucianism to all cities, especially larger ones
    • found city in east, make great work there, to start forming a border to stop the Mongols from further moves toward us
    • hook up horses, not to mention other resources such as wheat.
    • build theater in Cologne (I suggest rushing it), so that it will pop the border faster to get the iron. Right now it is at 24, +2/turn. So, 13 turns til next pop. With theater, will pop in 6 turns. That's about when we'll get Guilds.
    • stamp out military units in Hamburg, mainly. It would be nice to have a city-defender promoted longbow in every border city, especially those towards the Mongols.
    • build more workers! Develop our land.
    • build the "blocking" city that I have marked, in order to cut off Mongols in south completely from accessing our turf.
    • build Hanging Gardens.
    • but probably not in Berlin... Berlin needs to make at least one more worker and get the cottages going, so maximize its +50% commerce.
    Well, that's a lot of things. Figure we've got enough to keep y'all busy. :)

    Here's the savefile: View attachment 118492
     
  8. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

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    Very, very nice.

    Some notes at 1000AD. It was a mistake for me to send the missionaries of the two new religions to new cities. That makes it harder for them to get our state religion and the OR bonus. (I'm not used to running OR since it's so expensive and I generally play by getting caste system and Pacifism early and Great Personing the opposing civs to death all through the classical and medieval periods.) The missionaries should gave gone either to cities with the state religion already, or towards the Mongols or the Indians to allow us to change religions and get one as an ally against the other.

    Using the Great Artist to form the border with the Mongolians in the center is a good idea and a good use of him.

    It is amazing on quick speed that everything seems to be this frenetic race to get things hooked up. Man, that's wild.

    Cologne does need the theatre, and it needs it now.

    Once we capture the barbarian city to the NW and make our two blocking cities, we need to stop worrying about blocking the Mongols and start worrying about conquering them. I would not bother whatsoever with building the longbows for the border towns. That's why I built Chitzen Itza.

    Build Macemen starting now. When Catapults come in, Build some of them. Get a theatre in the horse city and when the border pops, build the corral and start making knights. We can conquer very, very soon now with a moderate sized army.

    One of the workers needs to start making a road towards the nearest Mongol city. This will improve our armies' speeds.

    Commerce is less important in Berlin than the science it allows you to make.
    I would immediately forget about doing any more whipping in Berlin, instead creating two science specialists. This would raise the GPPs per turn to 37 and increase our science rate. For now, I'd use the GP scientists to gain us even more techs. I'd like to get to Military Tradition at the same time as Astronomy and surprise the folks on the other continent with Cavalry.

    I would hold off on the Hanging Gardens right now. We've got plenty of population, and we gain nothing in health from the Wonder.

    Remember, guys, this is a conquest victory set from the start. The time to crush one's opponents is when they're much weaker than you are.

    Did you guys notice that Asoka is due south of us, across that little bay south of Teklinburg? The lower blocking city will keep him away from us.

    We need galleys for exploration of Asoka's shorelines so we can plan the post-Mongol campaign.

    Tom
     
  9. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Netherlands, Velp & Groningen
    Ok, done my turn, detailed log following: (currently in the process of writing)

    Turn 0 1000AD: Changed the production from building the library to the theatre, since the theatre will give us +3 culture compared to +2 from the library and this while the construction time of the theatre is even shorter (2 turns compared to 3). We don't need the +25% science while we only produce 1 beaker and 25% of one will be none. I've added a theatre to Essen's que, this will now be build after the granary.

    Turn 1 1025AD: Trained confusian missionary in Berlin > confusian missionary. I move the missionary to Hamburg. I moove my forces towards a yet unknown barb city in the west. It appears from the fog when I walk into their territory. The city is named Cherokee, it contains 1 Archer, 2 warriors and 2 workers in it. I would love to capture these workers! The city has a 20% defence bonus already... Next I spott a Hindu missionary from Osaka wander across our territory. He seems to be heading towards one of our bigger cities (see pic below) and spread his believe there. Next I explore with Jan the Axeman near our opponents.


    Turn 2 1050AD: We invent construction! Great! I started researching guilds. We build a library? in Tecklenbourg > Granary (3 turns). Constructed a granary in Essen > theatre, to catch the horses even sooner within our borders. Berlin reached it's optimum population again, when it'll grow one more it'll get some angry citizens, so I decide to hire some specialists (since I agree with Tom and don't like to rush things like Wreck does, by sacreficing the population). Berlin eats 26 food and produces 29 food so we have 3 excess food, so I decide to abandon one farm and use the farmer as a specialist scientist (gave him a study grant and some education first ofcourse ;) ). He reduced the great people birthdate by one turn, good work farmer boy. Berlin is now stagnant in growth for a while. I've hooked up Frankfurt to a weath farm and the rest of the empire. A settler was build in Munich. I walked him emidiately to our discussed next city spot, to cut of the opponents expansion (Wreck's idea was a good idea although this will cost us some maintenance money).

    Turn 3 1075AD: Berlin builds a confucian missionary again > theatre (2 turns), since this'll give us +1 happyness from the dye. This way we can grow a bit again. Hinduism spread to Munich thanks to Osaka's missionary. Cologne builds a theatre > workboat to catch the clam currently out of reach, but in 4 turns within our borders, giving us +1 health, great this allows us to grow even more in cities like Berlin. We won't be able to capture Cherokee the barb city, our forces are to weak and have less then 10% chance to win the battle against the archer inside the city. This is also because the barb city has now even got a 50% citydefence bonus. Also an extra barb Axeman has showed up. I decide to fortify my Axeman in the forrest next to the barb city and wait for more reinforcements to arrive, like the maceman that's already underway. My second conf. missionary heads towards Frankfurt. I've managed to spread confucianism in Hamburg, great :)

    Turn 4 1100AD: Franciscus the Axeman (fortified) was attacked by the other barb axeman next to him, he won, probably due to it's fortified position in the forrest. Munich builds a worker, I decide to build yet an other one, we need more workers to improve our lands! The workboat was completed in Cologne > maceman. Osaka adopts hereditary rule, so he must just have invented monarchy. Franciscus the Axeman get's a promotion because he survived the attack of the barb Axeman. I choose city raider I ofcourse. Combat odds now are 19%, compared to 5.1% before his promotion, not really strinking, but he needs to get healed first and wait for the reinforcements to take out the archer.

    Turn 5 1125AD: We've build a theatre in Berlin, +1 happyness, nice! It's now able to grow again by one population point, so I remove the scientist back into his farm again, now having his whole barn back again to use as experimantation lab. We've already got advantage of him, he already caused the GP-birth to shrink by one turn. Growth will now take place in 5 turns > the colosseum for one more happy face, you just can't have enough of them around! Tecklenbourg constructed a granary > forge to speed up the building progress in this city. Cologne builds a maceman > Colossus, since we've got copper (double prod. speed) and it's only five turns away from completion when we dicide to build it. We didn't need something really bad in Cologne so this was a nice alternative, even though it was only to take away this worldwonder from our rivals who are able to get a large advatage out of this. I know it's obsolute as soon as we've got Astronomy and I know we don't have many costal cities who will benifit from this, but hey what are five turns, nothing. I kill a barb with Bram the Axeman. The borders of Essen have expanded! Horses are now within reach! An Aquaduct has been build in Hamburg > theatre (to get +1 happyness from the dye). I attack a newly arrived barb archer outside Cherokee with Bram the Axeman, he wins the battle! 3.6/5.

    Turn 6 1150AD: We trained a worker in Munich < settler (4 turns). Frankfurt completed it's theatre > granary to grow faster. We finally found our new city 'Dortmund' at the agreed spot! Expenses roze imidiately to -14/turn, from -6/turn! auch, that hurts the science budget... We can't afford these things to much. I ordered to train a worker first thing, he may chop some forrest to speed up development in Dortmund. The next step was to use the culture bomb in it. Wow, I've never done that before, but that effect is huge (See pic below). The only minus point is that it doesn't close off the north, we'll need a city there also. We also immidiatly caught some stone to the south (within our borders), nice! When we hook that up we need to protect that square also, because it's within reach of the opponent.


    Turn 7 1175AD: We've build a theatre in Hamburg > worker. Eucalid (great scientist) has been born in Berlin our scientific capital. The borders of Cologne have finally expanded, capturing both the clam and the iron within our territory. Kublai Khan completed the hanging gardens... Boy am I glad, that I dicided not to build hanging gardens back then (at the begining of these 10 turns like you discussed), because he would have been the first, causing us to get some minor comopensation. I already thought so, someone would beat us to the completion of the hanging gardens that's why I dicided not to build it, to much risk and I was right. Sigmund Freud the maceman killed a barb warrior. I decided to use the great scientist as a great person wich joins the city (Berlin), it first produced 83 beakers, that's quite much, a real scientific city and now produces 94, even better! We've hooked up horses and the clam near Cologne, great!

    Turn 8 1200AD: We discovered Guilds! I decide to go for Banking next (4 turns) so we can build banks and above all adopt mercantialism since we don't have foreign trade routes and can use the +1 free scientist, but only adopt it when it's affordable, Tom because you're next who'll get to make the dicision, it'll now cost us 3 gold more that's affordable, but I don't know how this will get in a few turns from now. Frankfurt completes a granary > forge (4 turns). Maceman Jan defeats (see pic below of pre-battle position) the barb archer inside Cherokee! Franciscus the Axeman defeats the barb warrior next inside Cherokee! And Sebastian the axeman completes the fight and kills the last man standing (barb warrior), we capture Cherokee! We pillage it for 91 gold, very nice we can use that. Next, I'm asked to make a very difficult dicision, keep it or burn it. If we keep it we'll get even larger maintenace costs lowering the science budget and thus crippeling our progress, when we don't keep it we loose a very good oppertunity. I dicide to keep it, I know you guys want to keep it, me too but this comes with a high price not only figurative. Good news is :D we captured the two barb workers, We really don't want to construct more cities right now or we'll even get behind in tech soon!! These far away cities cause the research budget to plumet down. Wait until we earn 150+ for science again (see science advisor screen) or something like that, before we start building cities again is my advice.


    Turn 9 1225AD: We've constructed a colloseum in Berlin one more happy face! > forge since we've got more health here then we did before (because of new resources like clam). Forge will even give us one happy face extra for the gold but we won't need that because the health has dropped one again, so it's only worth it for the hammer bonus. We've trained a worker in Hamburg. Essen build a theatre > lighthouse, this makes the ocean squares very intresting when completed together with the colossus.

    Turn 10 1250AD: Cologne completed the Colossus, great, small benifit (not much costal cities) for a small period till it's obsolute but worth it I think > lighthouse, to get some extra food out of the ocean, this makes the ocean a great resource for our city. Frankfurt constructed forge > longbowman for Dortmund, to defend it against our opponents. Essen builds a lighthouse, great the ocean looks very rich in both commerce and food there now > confucian tmple to get one extra happy face. We've completed a settler in Munich, we don't want to use it right now or we end up on the loosing end because of maintenance costs. I've spread confucianism to Frankfurt, good work missionary!


    Oke I've completed my turns

    I'd like to say to Tom and Wreck; don't build any cities for a while, this can cost us our leading place in science!


    Tom it's your turn again, you're up
     
  10. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

    Joined:
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    Keeping Cherokee was definitely the right decision.

    Don't worry too much about city maintenance costs. We'll get up courthouses and cottages, and they'll be paying for themselves soon. You'll see. Both new cities are well-sited to produce commerce even before they are developed much.
     
  11. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Netherlands, Velp & Groningen
    But please don't construct cities for a while, we need to catch up breath or our opponents will walk in on us.

    See our progress below, we won't want that to drop, now do we:


    (We are the white line)

    I will make my own graph of our science budget/10 turns or session (first ones where 15, but that doesn't matter), this way we can see our progress in science better.


    As this graph shows our science-progress along our game-sessions (at the end of 10 or in the beginning 15 turns) is indeed slowing down. So we need to catch up breath. At the end of session 10 we even ended up with a lower budget then the turn before. We are on the rise again a little now but way to less. If we continue this way, opponents will catch up to us. This line needs to rise at all times!

    Conclusion: More cottages around cities, be carefull with building new cities. We need to catch up breath, let the new cities develop first and let them work their cottages and let them become profitable before we expand further. The enemy is already catching up right now!

    A nice fuel for a new expasion would be to wait for;

    A) Printing Press: +1 gold villages, +1 gold Towns
    B) Divine right: building the spiritual minaret +1 gold from confucianistic buildings, establish the islam and spread it around like all our other religions and makes us able to construct Versailles (becomes intresting later, but nice to have).
    C1) Economics: adopt free market +1 trade route in each city
    C2) Corporation after economics: make us able to construct wall street (+100% gold) in our best financial city (Berlin?), corporation also gives an extra trade route.
    D) Libralism: adopt free speech +2 gold from a town although the effect of bureaucracy will be gone then...

    So I'd say we go for devine right next to get a 4th religion, would be nice, construct the Spiritual minaret I'd say in Berlin (since most great people will be born here, Berlin has got the largest GP-points)(also makes the possibility availible in Berlin to get a great prophet, he could establish more shrines). This way we'll receive some extra gold from combined with the bureaucracy civic (+50% gold) makes it extra powerfull. Then go for paper and next printing press, this should boost our economy so much we can afford some new cities.
     
  12. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

    Joined:
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    Ok, just opened it up.

    Jher, we can afford the blocking city, but probably not any more than that right now. You really don't need to worry that much about the science percentage, we're not trying to build the rocket ship, we're just trying to stay far enough ahead in tech to be able to defeat our enemies, which is what I am going to start us on the road to do.

    With Markets, grocers and banks, we'll have more than enough money to do whatever it is we wish to do.

    First order of business is going to be Compass and Optics, so that we can get our caravels out and find the other continent. We're also going to get an explorer out as soon as we get compass. At that point, I am going to open the borders with Khan and run the explorer all over his territory. We cannot afford to wait much longer to attack. We'll need to make a list of cities that he's got with resources we don't have that we'll keep. The rest we will level and we will not stop until he's gone if all his cities are on this continent. (We'll keep his capital, also.)

    At that point, we'll take a breather and then go after Asoka. Opening the borders will actually get us some trade for a bit, and perhaps spread our religions a bit so that we can build temples in our keeper cities.

    The empire looks great, though.

    When the time comes to begin making military units for the war, I am going to switch to Vassalage, Caste System and Theocracy. Our units will melt his cities.


    Tom
     
  13. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

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    Location:
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    Okey fine with me maybe I was a little to paranoid about the science/money thing, but watch out keeping captured cities far away from our capital as they will cost us a lot of distance and maintenance money.
     
  14. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

    Joined:
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    Ran 11 turns, my finger hit the button before I realized I had done so, sorry.

    Save game below.

    Summary:

    Interturn: Put two additional science specialists in Berlin. This increased GPPs by 75%. Queued market and Grocer in Berlin to increase money, also building cottages in new cities to make more later. Beginning to manufacture Army of Conquest in Hamburg. Beginning road to Mongol Territory. Fiddled a bit with city governors.

    Turn 1--1275AD. Started Sistine Chapel in Teklenburg. We need a Great Artist factory to pump them for keeper enemy cities we conquer. Building road network for resources and for army movement. Changed civics to Vasslage, Caste System and Theocracy. Science has dropped (temporarily) to 30%. That's ok. While be build and conquer, we can use the Great Scientists from Berlin to pop techs that we can use. First six units from Hamburg are 2 knights, 2 macemen and 2 catapults, all done in 10 turns total.

    Turn 2--1300AD Anarchy turn.

    Turn 3--1325AD. Banking comes in. 4 turns to Compass. Start pair of galleys in Cologne and workboat in Manheim, which is now ours.

    Turn 4--1350AD. Started market in Frankfurt. We should set up most of our cities now as commerce cities, we'll need the money.

    Turn5--1375AD. First knight completed--2 full instant promotions! Trained him some more on some barbs nearby. Checked--Khan has only 5 cities to our 9, should be a breeze to conquer. I figure we need about 5 knights to pillage his resource base, 5 macemen to hit the cities after we knock down their % with the catapults. We'll need a couple longbowmen per city once we capture them and a constant replacement of macemen and knights once the war starts.

    Turn 6--1400AD Start market in Essen and Theatre in Mannheim to pop borders. Munich loses mine to Barb and goes angry, queue Colisseum. We'll need to rebuild the mine or a windmill when we get a chance.

    Turn 7--1425AD. Compass pops. Optics next. Chopping explorer to run through Khan's territory when we open borders for intelligence.

    Turn 8--1450AD Got great scientist in Berlin, use him to immediately get Optics--see how convenient the specialists are? Start a pair of Caravels in Cologne to find the other continent. We should maintain open borders with the nations over there to spy on them and to get money, this closed border stuff is driving me nuts. I never, never NEVER have closed borders in my games, but you guys seem to like it. If they build a cut off city on the far side of my territory, it's just that much easier to conquer later.

    Turn 9 and 10, 1475AD, 1500AD, nothing special happens, some barbs show up near Cologne.

    Turn 11--1510AD (I hit return by mistake). Sent workers to complete road between Berlin and Hamburg. Jher, do NOT freak out about the low science rate, you have to do that to fight a war, with Markets, Grocers and Banks, we'll soon be back at the 70% level. We are currently 7+ techs ahead of Asoka and 9+ techs ahead of Khan. We should roll over him.

    After gunpowder comes in, I am perfectly happy with going for the techs Jher has outlined above.

    Tom
     
  15. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

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    OK, got the turn... will only be playing 9 to get us back to semi-even end dates.

    OK, first thing is to get Mannheim to pop, to get those other seafood working. Great, 3 pop, ready to whip. What?? Can't whip. Um... oh, wrong civics.

    I have to say, I really dislike caste system. We are paying $8/turn for that, and it is not getting us anything -- there's not a single specialist we have that needs it. Meanwhile, caste system means no slavery. I can't whip. And we need the whipping.

    Hmm, this is a hard decision. I don't like to waste 1 turn of 9 on a revolution. But... well, what other civics do we have? Feudalism? Hmm, I never use that either. But it does have benefits, at least... though, we're mostly building, not making military yet. And we're losing 24 commerce per turn in Berlin for not running Bureaucracy. And 4 hammers. On economics, we now have access to Mercantilism... which would combo decently with caste system, at least make us able to make certain people. But it's also fine on it's own. Almost any city can use *1* specialist. Finally, we're in Theocracy, not Organized Religion. Is this justified? IMO, no... not for my 9 turns anyway. I'll be making a handful of military units, but I'll be making a lot more buildings. I'd rather have +25% extra in 8 cities than 2 extra EP on a handful of units. Let them kill a barb if they want level 2.

    Yes, revolution it is. Sorry Tom. Guess if you want it back, you can put it back. You'll have a nicer empire to do it with, at least.

    Other things... lot's of minor MM in cities I won't detail... wait. There's an explorer?? in the queue in Dortmund (eastmost river city). This is nonsense. Take it out and there's an almost-finished worker. Well, that's what it needs. Worker reinstated. Who wanted an explorer? For what? Guess I'll finish it (for the caravel I intend to make). But really!

    Finally, I see some an axe and a macemen up near Essen guarding. Well, we don't need them guarding there any more, because there's no FOW up there any more. Hence, no barbs are possible. And certainly nobody else is coming in up there. So, moving those units out to see if they can't find some barbs to play with. Mmmm, experience.
     
  16. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    298
    OK, Caste system may or may not have been a good idea. I will restrain myself from using it in the future. We have one tech that we would not have if we hadn't had it, I guess it's not a fair trade.

    That explorer has a real purpose. As soon as he was finsihed (and he was being chopped) I intended that we open the borders to the Mongols and send him in. In a dozen turns, he would know the location of every strategic resource that the Mongols have and we would be able to castrate Khan by taking them out in the first half dozen turns of a war.

    Khan has 5 cities and is over 9 techs behind us!!! If you look at the original victory conditions of this game, it can ONLY be won by military victory. This means that all of the building that you guys are doing is going to be for naught if we cannot do that. We have an entire other CONTINENT to take in addition to this one, (and it's already the 16th century) and this game is not being run at normal or longer speed. It is a quick game. The AI has a heavy military advantage on quick games, since there is less time for conquests, so its tactic of sending huge stacks works better.

    In any case, it's you guys' game for the next 19 turns. You've got two each of knights, macemen and catapults. Store them at the front for me, I'll make some more when it's my turn.

    You can whip anywhere you like EXCEPT Berlin. Berlin needs a *minimum* of two scientist specialists working there at all times. It's nearly too late to use it properly. All the Great Scientists that we got earlier *could* have been used to get us techs. Had we done that, we might be close to Cavalry right now, or at least Grenadiers.

    In my opinion, the best choice for us would be a fast war, right now to eliminate the Mongols while we can. Don't keep any cities without resources we don't have--keep the capital.

    I look forward to seeing what you guys do with this--don't get me wrong, I'm not really upset or anything, it's just as if you didn't read any of my commentary before my turn--I clearly said why I was doing what I did.

    I guess that in a Conquest-only game, I get itching to do just that--conquer, and our enemies are before us on a silver platter.

    Tom
     
  17. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Messages:
    331
    1510 - see above. Jiggle, jiggle.

    1520 - both barbs near cologne stomped. I review the new specialists (from Mercantilism); everything seems fine. They're all Engineers.

    Out of anarchy. Research rate was 30% -- now can do 50%, still gold-neutral. Why so much more? Because of the extra 24 commerce in Berlin which is being turned into gold. Also, less expensive civics.

    1530 - looking around for what to do with workers... we've got both sugar and deer now in our cultural area, but not hooked. Health! Happiness! I must have them! (Build, build, build.) Several other cities start workers...

    1540 - Bram the Axeman takes on a barb axeman and a barb warrior... beats 'em both. Hills/forest are nice. Once more barb over there looks to pillage a road. Grrr.

    Mannheim popped its borders, just 2 turns after the theater pop-rushed. Hmm, wheat! Fish! This city is going to be huge when I am done with it.

    Sistine chapel competed. Now all those free specialists also pop borders. Woopie.

    1550 - barb archer cuts road to Mannheim. It goes unhappy. Still growing strong, though.

    1560 - a Great Prophet is born. Well, this time I am getting my shrine for sure. He moves out towards Hamburg.

    1570 - You have entered the Renaissance! Gunpowder. What's next? I decide on engineering. Massing forces is taking a long time. I think after this we should go for Riflemen, but if y'all want to go for an attack at our current tech level... fine w/ me.

    I am tempted to start Notre Dame somewhere... but no, we've got stone in range. Wait to hook it up.

    1580 - Lighthouse rushed in Mannheim. The overflow should be near to completing a workboat. Since the first rush finished a granary, this city is set to go. Four food resources! You rarely see that.

    1590 - The Kong Miao is up! Income jumps by $7/turn, just from that. I go to 60% science. Only $7... oh I see, haven't any gold buildings there. Well, Munich is now our Wall Street. Queuing market/grocer/bank there.

    Hmm. Turned out that we had a second galley out, and I had not even noticed it. Finally, it wants order. Well... just keep driving around our continent, dude! See you in another 30 years!

    1600 - Not much big happening. I dance with some barbs, to try to get them to attack us. Outcome of this is left for Jeroen. I've massed some force near to the enemy border, but there's more probably needed for that.

    Engineering is 1 turn away. This should help, since it speeds up road movement.
     
  18. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Messages:
    331
    OK, here's the game: View attachment 118669 .

    I've massed some force near to Mongols. Perhaps enough to grab a city; whether or not to go for it is up to Jeroen. If you do, definely go for his iron and pillage it. (Or put a unit there to deny it to the enemy if you can capture the city quickly.)

    Now that I've read the explanation of the explorer, he makes more sense. But we can explore just fine w/ knights, too, right? So we can open the borders and send them in to find the resources. Seems like a good idea. The reason I've not wanted to open the borders is to not let through enemy settlers. But with war on the offing, that's less of a worry. It would also be helpful to know more or less what he's got back there.

    As for our overall plans... I realize we must conquer. However, I'm usually not very happy to go to war with just a relatively minor advantage, such as I think we have. I mean, we'll be facing, what. Archers, at least. Axemen. And those, behind cultural defenses of 40%. This means slow going. Not only do we crawl up to the walls, we then sit there for 4 turns while the cats work on them.

    Also, it's not clear to me but Mongols may have longbows. If so, we can forget about conquering him with mere knights and macemen. We can get to grenadiers reasonably fast, so that might be what we need to do to make it happen.
     
  19. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Netherlands, Velp & Groningen
    I always read your commentary and also that of Wreck. I also always keep it in mind during my playtime, I actually print your commentary on A4 in the form of a briefing, to look at it during the game and watch it carefully, then I decide wich I think is usefull and wich is not.

    Great move Wreck :thumbsup:
     
  20. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    298
    Explorers have an advantage over knights in that they ignore ALL terrain effects. In addition, they begin with both guerrila 1 *and* Woodsman I. If created while running Vasslage and Theocracy in a city with a Barracks and State Religion, they're just plain scary in how fast they can move--they can scout out an enemy country in a half dozen turns.

    Knights go through Longbow defenders like a knife through butter *if* you've used catapults to remove the cultural percentage of the cities first and send in a suicide cat with heavy collateral before you start. (It's Pikemen, which require engineering that take out knights. In addition, he would need Crossbowmen which requires Machinery to even touch our Macemen.) If we're not keeping cities, we could probably take Khan's entire civilization right now with 15 military units.

    Once the other civilizations meet each other and start trading techs, they're going to catch up with us. We will never be at as great an advantage over our opponents as we are right now.

    Military intelligence is essential. We need to map his entire civ before we start. The good thing is that it's small. One thing that you could do is get Paper and then trade a minor tech for their World Map. This would give us all the information we need without having to use the explorer.

    Part of the reason that we've got a lower-than optimal money supply right now is our closed borders. Try this as a demonstration, take your save, remove mercaltilism and go back to Decentralization. Open the borders with Asoka and Khan. Count the money that you're now getting from all of our foreign trade routes. Move up the science slider. I do not know for sure, but I'd bet good money that you'll increase our booty by a great deal (Plus the amount we can get selling them our surplus resources--after all, why have all these extras if we're not going to trade them for cash?)

    THE MANTRA OF THE WARMONGER:

    Before you do anything, ask yourself the following questions:

    A) Does this increase our military technological advantage over our opponents?

    B) Does this increase our financial ability to support our armies and/or upgrade our units?

    C) Does this give us a temporary ally, improve our lines of communication or give us a new resource?

    D) Does this increase the rate at which we can produce units or increase our ability to train them?

    E) Does this harm our enemies?

    F) Does this help war-weariness or pop our cultural boundaries?

    If what you are planning to do does not do one of the above, it is at best a distraction, and at worst a detriment.

    We could conquer the world by 1900, but we can't do it by being defensive.

    Tom
     

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