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Jheronimus leader of Germany - for everyone SG

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Jheronimus, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

    Joined:
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    I take your meaning. I never finished that explorer, but then, we'd only get 1 promo doing it right now. (It needs 2 to get woodsman 2). It's in the q if Jeroen wants to change to get one of Vassalage/Theocracy (I'd suggest the latter).

    However, we've got forces over there now. Instead of the explorer, I'd just open the borders and send in the knights and maybe some shallow moves with macemen and/or cats.

    Remember that we don't need to map absolutely every bit of his land. We just need to find out where his roads go. Knights are just as fast as Explorers on roads.

    I'd suggest to Jeroen that we open borders, and you move in to see what you can see.

    Incidentally, if we declare war on him while our units are in his domain, they'll get teleported out. I'm not sure exactly how the game chooses where to put them, but it seems to just pick the closest spot. So, we can use this - once we're happy with the intel, just get the knights most of the way back, and they can teleport the rest.

    One other advantage to sending in some military units is if he has a resource way in the back somewhere that we want gone, along with a non-culture spot in range. We can save time for the invasion by pre-positioning forces back there.


    Yes, and the necessity for cats means (a) crawling up to the walls through cultural zones, (b) knocking down the walls, then (c) losing 1-2 cats while getting the collateral damage necessary (thus needing replacements). Healing battered attackers. All these things take time. Of course, a lot of it can't be cut with any unit. (b) is the main corner that can be cut, or (a) if you've got sea access later in the game.

    The baseline is a longbow in a city with no walls left is 6, +25% fortified, +25 city defense. Khan's defenders will be double or triple promoted, some with city defense promos.

    Our advantage will be greater when we get Riflemen, and Infantrymen. These are my usual attacking units. I don't normally use Grenadiers, but they seem good as well.


    I completely agree with this. Going in w/o enough info is not smart. The only reason I didn't open borders and start exploring myself is that I had a later start-date in my head. But if y'all agree to go with Knights (and I am happy to, in spite of my protestations about being cautious), then I think we should open the borders and get cracking w/ exploration.


    An interesting idea. Not sure if he'll trade us, is World Map red now or not?


    Actually I doubt it. I looked at our trade before choosing Mercantilism; borders were open w/ India. We had only two trade routes, of all our routes (2 in each city) which were with India. And those two routes were each +2; so in net we were getting +2 gold/turn, total.

    Of course, opening routes with Mongols would probably improve that somewhat. But even outside of GPP, Mercantilism gets +2 hammers/turn in most of our cities. Or +3 science, if you want a more direct comparison.
     
  2. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

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    Anyway, priorities for the attack are:
    1. unit builds - keep pumping them out in Hamburg
    2. massing, including getting the roads to the front up. I worked on them a lot, so they're mostly there
    3. scouting out the enemy's homeland

    Techwise, I suggest Chemistry so we can make grenadiers. That's just 8 turns, and they're far superior to musketmen.

    I figure the scouting and building should take another 10 turns or so, leaving Tom with the initial invasion.

    Regarding civics, I am happy enough to leave them where they are; but it may be better to get into one or both of Theocracy/Vassalage.

    As for mix of units, I think Tom had a list back there... hmm, not finding it. Anyway, I'd say initially build cats, aiming for a stack of 5 for the initial attack. Then some macemen; not too many, because they'll be obsoleted by grenadiers. They are for stack protection while moving to the walls. I think we only need a few, and may have enough already. And finally, more knights. They are vital for several reasons. I suggest building them last because they're fast, and can therefore get to the jumpoff point in sync with the slower cats.
     
  3. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

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    The knights will need to take out Iron, Copper, Horses (especially horses, the Mongol UU is the Keshik, which is a type of horse archer that you don't want to face--I consider that to be our major danger) and Elephants.

    Once you get Chemistry, I would suggest going for Liberalism for the extra Tech, followed by Military Tradition (getting Nationalism on the way) and then beeline to Communism. The latter will allow us to use State Property to eliminate the distance costs of any empire we rule as well as giving us the Kremlin which would halve the cost of buying units or buildings (I believe that this applies both to whipping and buying under Universal Suffrage.)

    Types of units that we need--Note that in order to get the maximum XP to start, we need to be running Vassalage AND Theocracy: (Vasslage also removes the support cost from the first dozen units, I believe.)

    Typical Initial "Army"

    9 Knights--4 for pillaging improvements with Flanking promotions, 5 for city attack with Combat 2. These can be upgraded to Cavalry when we get Military Tradition.

    5 Macemen--City Raider 2. Macemen do *not* get upgraded to Grenadiers, they get upgraded to Riflemen. However, note that they carry along the City Raider promotion when they do. If we preserve them, we can actually have infantry with City Raider promotions. [Grenadiers do NOT get City Raider, they're meant to be used to counter Riflemen in later wars.]

    2 Catapults plus a suicide cat for each city, total 7. Barrage 2 promotion.

    2 Musketeers for every city that we wish to keep. City Garrison 2.

    2 pikemen for every stack we intend on using. This will prevent the enemy Kesheks from harrying our stack. Combat 1 and Cover.

    The number of stacks we field will, of course, depend on how our enemy is laid out. Once we start the war, we should phase in wartime production in our cities, holding other production for later. Once Khan is conquered, we can take 10 turns to build more infrastructure and 10 more to make sure our army is of sufficent size to eliminate Asoka.

    I want to strongly recommend against "taking a city and seeing what happens." You do not attack until you have sufficient troops to eliminate your opponent within a very short time. So, we attack, we attack some more and then we kill them all.

    Tom
     
  4. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

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    Location:
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    Ok I've done my turns, the log, savegame and intelligence will follow in some hours.

    To give you some info already:
    -didn't start war yet
    -didn't change civics, it's a waste to have yet an other anarch after 2 for nothing...
    -found 3rd en 4th opponent on their continent
    -builded up some extra troops (mostly Knights)
    -scouted out every square of Kublai's territory
    -good news: Khan has only one resource of horse, iron (near our border, easy to take) and copper.
    -bad news: Khan has a relative strong army with lots of Keshik's 6 in strenght, they are even scouting out our lands when I've got open borders.
    -placed a knight directly outside his borders near the horses to pillage it straight away as soon as war comes.
    -I've made screenshots of every city he owns, with troops list, following later.
    -Khan has 5 cities in total, with an avarage of about 4 units in defence. He's got about 10 units outside his cities. Three even exploring our territory and 1 in one of our cities. Be careful with them, as soon as war starts they will be teleported out, make sure you'll have forces there to defend our lands. I follow them already with some forces to be near when trouble comes in.
     
  5. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

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    Very good work on the intelligence. It would have been better if you had made the civic switch *before* making the units (even one would have been better than nothing.

    I'm not going to comment on what specifically I'm going to do until I see exactly what we've got in the way of troops. One of the good things is that our resources are well to the rear of our territory in the case of the horses and medium in the case of the iron. The large pillaging army means that we'll need about five additional knights to serve as anti-Keshik units.

    An alternative to building them would be to bribe Asoka to attack Khan a couple turns before we do. He would, at that point, head his troops in that general direction to pillage Asoka's lines. That would probably take care of our defensive problem. The downside of that is that it is possible that Asoka might get some juicy cities out of it. (I doubt that, since last time I looked, they had virtually the same sized armies.

    I am not going to be able to do my next turn until after class on Tuesday night, so we have a lot of time to discuss what to do next. I want to make sure this time that we are in agreement on a course of action before I commit to it. We lost a couple turns, some GPs and some money by going in two directions recently and we can't afford too many gaffes like that.

    As far as the Defenders in the cities go, the standard AI operating procedure is to attack stacks beseiging the cities by the excess over two of the defending units in a city. This means that two of our units would get a promotion before they even fire a shot at the city.

    Does he have any elephants in his cultural borders?

    Tom
     
  6. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

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    Tom, it's up to you to start the war, or if you don't think we're ready, build up as you see fit and handoff to me. This time I think we're ready.

    Incidentally, do not give "cover" promos to the pikemen we'll need to deal with Keshiks. Cover is for use against archers, but Keshiks are horse units. In any case, pikemen won't need promos to deal with Keshiks; they are twice as strong and will eat them alive unpromoted.

    Also: the two of you may have noticed that I do not promote units when I build them. There's a reason for this. Promoting does make units more powerful, but it also heals them instantly, on the spot, and can heal them even after they attack. I like to leave units unpromoted until I need it. All units should try to stay in cover as much as possible. Unpromoted ones may also be stacked with other units so that they won't get attacked. So defensively they don't need the strength augmentation. If they need it before making an attack, it's there. Don't take any unnecessary risks. But if they don't need, don't take it. Then you have a built-in heal to be used at a dire moment.
     
  7. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

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    This doesn't matter to me, I already thought we where moving to fast. One day I play a session and when I look the next day, you guys already played yours :lol: so I can start a new session every day. My advice take your time not too long ofcourse but also not to fast and talk your strategy over before you do anything. So no need to hurry our game sessions phase is already very fast, doesn't hurt to wait a day.

    No he doesn't have them, so no worries about war elephants.

    Intel comming soon first got to take a bath here, playing this game makes your armpits smell :lol:
     
  8. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

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    Very good advice. The healing through promotion is less well-known than it should be. I also didn't realize that the Cover promotion doesn't work versus Keshiks, so it's good to have that knowledge.

    What techs did you guys pick up? I'm at work and can't open the file. I want to think about tech paths for a bit.

    Tom
     
  9. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

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    Looks like my server is down, but above this line should be an image of our current tech progress.

    We've got Divine right, paper, banking and all that comes behind it. I'm researching printing press. complete in 5 turns
     
  10. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

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    So, we have Civil Service, Philosophy/Divine Right and Music.....

    We also have Gunpowder as a Tech and horses hooked up.

    We're 2 1/2 techs away from Cavalry if we want it. If I go for Nationalism, then Military Tradition, will we have enough production available for 120-hammer units by the time we've got the latter finished?

    Tom
     
  11. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

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    Right, cavalry costs 96 hammers and our largest hammer producing city is Hamburg, it currently produces 69 hammers/turn.

    I'll put an accurate intel report up as soon as the server is back online, hope and suspect it to be soon.
     
  12. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

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    Location:
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    Here's my log file: (currently in the process of typing)

    '>' means: next I go for
    ':' means: has build

    Turn 1 1610AD: We invent Engineering > Devine Right (6 turns) to get in more money = more economical growth. Berlin: Bank > Globe theatre (6 turns) so we won't have any unhappieness anymore. This way Berlin can grow to size 22 or more! It's only limited to it's health and the workable tiles within it's fatcross. Dortmund: Forge > courthouse, since this is the fastest way to build an improvement wich earns most money compared to it's construction time. Munich: Maceman > market. Joseph the Axe kills a barb Axe near our only source of Iron. Bram the Axe kills a barb Archer. Put the workboat to work at the fish site within Mannheims fatcross. The caraval 'Bismarck' found some land in sight after crossing the ocean, no traces of any civ yet. Moved the settler wich was sleeping in Munich towards our blocker cityspot, because our finances allow the building of a city again.

    Turn 2 1620AD: Hamburg: Maceman > musketman. Tecklenbourg: Market > Bank. Frankfurt: Taoist Temple > courthouse. Essen: Library > Forge. Decided the time was right to Sign an open border agreement with Kublai, to explore his territory with our Knights. Maceman 'Johannes Kepler' defeats a barb Axeman. Caraval 'Bismarck' spots a new civ! It's territory appears to be yellow-green.

    Turn 3 1630AD: Asoka comes in with a proposal: he offers sheep in return for dye (we both have one spare), I accept. Hamburg: Musketman > Maceman. Caraval 'Bismarck' moves in on the borders of the yet unknown civ... It appears to be Montezuma, leader of the Aztecs. He's really in all ways, he's only got a score of 492 compared to our 1374. He's the founder of Judaism and has only got 5 cities in total. The caraval 'Das boot' spots also some land a little to the North of the other caraval, it appears to be the same continent. I move the knights across Kublai's territory and spy on his cities using my mouse pointer and the print screen button :lol: I've also spotted the capital of Asoka named 'Delhi'.

    Turn 4 1640AD: Kublai asks us Philosophy for nothing; oke we help him with that, the poor bastard, gave him the tech for free, just joking :lol: ofcourse he didn't get it for nothing, it ain't no rose garden either :lol: Hamburg: Musketman > knight. Cologne: Market > courthouse. Al-Razi born in Berlin (great scientist), didn't know we'd already had islamic people living in Berlin around the 17th century, but hey, it's a great scientist so he's always welcome! Kublai Khan converts to hinduism?! Asoka won't like it now when we attack his brother... We've been beaten from the first place in GNP (see demographics) we are 2nd now ): I use wrker 'Gabriel Fahrenheit' to connect the mongolian empire to our empire, so we can invade them more easily and faster in the future. They probably have no idea why we are building these nice roads, well to invade you mud-suckers :lol: I use the Great scientist as a specialist in Berlin, our capital of science. We now produce 133 science beakers compared to 122 before, nice!

    Turn 5 1650AD: Frankfurt: courthouse > Bank. Hamburg: knight > knight. Munich: Market > Grocer. Founded the Blocker city Stuttgart, it costs us an aditional 13 gold/turn on distance and maintenance! Pfff, that's a lot but ok.

    Turn 6 1655AD: Essen: Forge > Bank. Caraval 'Das boot' encounters the last unknown civ on the same continent as Montezuma, it's Huanya Capac, leader of the inca's. His score is better than montezuma's, he's got 611 compared to our 1369 right now. He's the founder of budism and he's got 7 cities in total. Some forces of Kublai start to explore our territory, but I can't do anything to stop them other than declaring war and we're not yet ready for that, so I decide to watch their moves closely.

    Turn 7 1660AD: Matthias the Axeman defended the newly founded blocker city against a strong barb swordsman, but he won! We've found out devine right > paper only 1 turn. Berlin produced the Globe Theatre! it can now expand almost freely. No unhappiness here, Berlin will grow to dizzeling sizes :) > The Spiritual Minaret, this will draw in even more gold, making this city even produce more science then it already does! It's 10 turns to construct, a little long, but stone is almost hooked up and will reduce this number. To reduce it even more I'll chop down some forrests. Cologne: Courthouse > Barracks. Mannheim: Workboat > Christian Temple, I decided to hurry this last one since the growth here is really fast (due to all the resources within his fatcross) and we've already got one unhappy citizen. The Islam has been founded in Dortmund, our 4th religion :lol: due to being the first to discover devine right. The Islam spread emmidiately to Stuttgart.

    Turn 8 1665AD: Asoka wants our world map for his, don't think so, I manage to get his for 60 gold without giving mine, we should keep our territory secret to everybody, atleast I always play it this way. We discover paper > Printing press to get some extra money from our cottages. Tecklenbourg: Bank > Barracks. Mannheim: Christian Temple (hurried) > courthouse. Confucianisim spread to Ning-hsia, great! +1 gold Ning-hsia is Kublai's border city closest to our empire (next to the city where we dropped the culture bomb). Maceman 'Johannes Kepler' defeated a barb Archer. The stone is hooked up! great building time of the Spiritual minaret reduced.

    Turn 9 1670AD: While defending Axeman 'Franciscus' killed a barb Axeman. Cologne: Barracks > Christian Temple. Munich: Grocer > Catapult. Hamburg: knight > knight.

    Turn 10 1675AD: Hamburg: knight > knight. Dortmund: courthouse > longbowman. Tecklenbourg: Barracks > courthouse.

    due to my downlike server I'll add the pic in an other way

    Intelligence:​


    The 5 cities and it's forces of Kublai Khan caught on camera! Note: by the time we attack they might have more units inside their cities!




    overview:

     
  13. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

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    Its hammer production is increased by 50% while building military units.

    This would mean that it would be producing two two-promotion cavalry every three turns.

    Oh, I like this.

    Tom
     
  14. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

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    Location:
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    Here's my savegame attached:
     
  15. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

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    Still haven't had a chance to open the file--quiz tonight in class. If I cannot finish the 10 turns tonight, I'll have to wait until Thursday to do so. Is that acceptible?

    Jher, can you look over your intelligence and provide us with a list of the resources contained within the fat cross of the five Mongol cities?

    We can decide which ones we want to keep ahead of time.

    I will wait for the Minaret to finish before switching the Civics. I will leave Slavery and Mercantilism intact and switch to Vasslage and Theocracy to make the replacement units with 2 promotions. I'll let any cities still building things to continue to do so until they finish, then switch them to military production if they can make units within 10turns, otherwise continue their use for financial purposes.

    Tom
     
  16. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

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    From a fairly brief inspect last night, it looks to me like we'll want to keep Karakarum and Turfan. Karakorum has the Great Lighthouse, it appears. And it is a pretty good city site. Turfan is just a massive city site. And it also sits nicely at the border with India, for our next war.

    As for resources, there's one in Turfan (copper IIRC) that needs pillaged early. So, put some knights in India. Then the other resources to worry about are in the north fairly close to our borders. But do make your own observations... I was just looking around, not too carefully.
     
  17. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

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    Hmm. Ok, if we want Turfan, we don't want India to come in as an ally. It'll probably be the last city taken and we don't want them to come across the border and end up with it. It'd be just one more thing we have to capture from them. It should make a good base from which to launch the second phase of our continental conquest. Is there a third enemy civ on our continent? I recall Jher saying he saw a Japanese? missionary earlier.

    Once we clear out the territory, Asoka's going to leap in with settlers. This'll be slowed down *somewhat* by the fact that the AI hates jungle. If you guys get any Great Artists, *save* them until we've got Kharkorum and then Turfan captured for culture bombs to grab all the surrounding territory quickly.

    Tom
     
  18. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

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    I didn't say that. There are only four opponents: 2 on our continent and 2 on an other.

    Acceptable, for me. (isn't it acceptable not acceptible?)

    Here it is:



    The really white icon between the two banana icons is sugar, in case you couldn't recognise it.

    I'd say keep their capital Karakorum and their most southern city Turfan.
     
  19. TCGTRF

    TCGTRF Warlord

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    Ok, I misread you. No problem.

    We've got Khan, Asoka, HC and Monty, right?

    With any luck at all, Monty'll be dead by the time we get over to their continent in force.

    We'll have to make sure we get Combustion sometime early in the Industrial Age. By the time we get over there, they'll probably have the continent sewed up and we'll have a hard time finding a city site--we may have to capture one.



    Tom
     
  20. Jheronimus

    Jheronimus Warlord

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    Right :goodjob:
     

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