[RD] JK Rowling and Explicit Transphobia

[Arwon]

No, it's not. It is a scientific fact that one cannot change their chromosomes, but the scientific term sex long predates our understanding of genetics. You can redefine sex to be wholly chromosome-based if you want, but it's reductionist.

Stem cell and bone marrow transplants actually can change, or at least add to, the DNA and chromosomes present in someone, too.

Basically: gender and sex in biology and medicine are a lot messier than the neat pre-existing linguistic and social categories we've tried to back-fit them onto.

 

[Zardnaar]

Stem cell and bone marrow transplants actually can change, or at least add to, the DNA and chromosomes present in someone, too.

I think the main point is you can't flush things out and create something new.

It's like a Toyota, you can repaint it and slap a new badge on it but it's still a Toyota not a BMW.

Fanatics on both sides would hate my wurld dictatorship. A spades a spade but said spade would get more rights than what the other fanatics oppose. Hell more operations would be available for surgery under the public health system.

 

[Arwon]

Car paint and endocrine systems are the same thing, sure dude. Expert level stuff here.

Sometimes you don't have to post, yeah?

 

[Zardnaar]

Car paint and endocrine systems are the same thing, sure dude. Expert level stuff here.

Sometimes you don't have to post, yeah?

I get what JK Rowling is trying to say, she's not going about it in the best way.

It's just a stupid situation. Generally I believe you can do whatever you like (within reason).

It's fairly obvious to anyone with half a brain there's a difference between cis women and trans women but people are trying to create an emperor has no clothes situation.

By that I mean a climate if fear where people can't state the obvious without being called a bigot.

Going the other way the you shouldn't be allowed to creat a climate of fear where trans people can be targeted for assault etc and all the other stuff.

Call yourself whatever you want, anyone else can stick whatever label they like as well.

Anyone crossing the line gets my usual suggested punishment.

That punishment being throw all the nutters into a stadium once a year. Add weapons and let them sort it out. Use machine guns and napalm on any survivors.

I bet within 5 years sanity prevails and people start treating each other better.

Government enforced be nice to each bother. Or else.

 

[Zelig]

It is a scientific fact that one cannot change their chromosomes

Not yet we can't.

Not that it should particularly matter.

 

[Crezth]

So called cis women clearly have their own experiences which are unique. Why shouldnt we respect that?

No one in this thread said "disrespect ciswomen." By the way, dissing transwomen is not the same thing as respecting ciswomen.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Not yet we can't.

Not that it should particularly matter.

I don't think it matters much because even if chromosomes could be changed nothing about the person would change other than complex esoteric biology stuff. They'd still be the gender they identify as.

People who make the argument that X = woman and Y = man would have to move on another excuse.

 

[Inhalaattori]

Stem cell and bone marrow transplants actually can change, or at least add to, the DNA and chromosomes present in someone, too.

Basically: gender and sex in biology and medicine are a lot messier than the neat pre-existing linguistic and social categories we've tried to back-fit them onto.

Well I guess they are not as black and white as many people think. I mean there are intersexual people, which does make things more complex. But we must often make things simpler just so we can talk about practically anything. Its just practical to talk about men and women in certain situations for the sake of practicality. There are always exceptions no matter what we are talking about.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, it's not easy. It's just super-weird that progressives find it easier. It's just words, but the ability to bring on new vocabulary is strangely partisan.

 

[El_Machinae]

The issue I see here is that "trans people" are the supposed "weirdos." Inclusivity of trans people somehow equates to the permissible presence of predators. The only way this works is if trans people are inherently predatory, which they clearly are not.

No, you're misreading me. And I cannot figure out why. Even my analogy very clearly distinguishes between those who present the (perceived) threat and those who are injured by the protections from that threat.

The issue is one of conflation. People are phobic of transpeople, and part of that is because they're cautious about something else that they associate with transgenderism. You cannot encourage their enlightenment until you're able to tease apart the concerns.

We used to live in a world where people had too much discretion with regards to who they could expel from certain locations. That's a Type 1 problem. The Type 2 is people not being able to nip a potential problem early enough to prevent a victim.

It's the masks-in-a-bank problem. There will be a ratio of people who bare the injuries either way.

 

[emzie]

I get what JK Rowling is trying to say, she's not going about it in the best way.

It's just a stupid situation. Generally I believe you can do whatever you like (within reason).

LMAO dude.

dude.

DUDE. You think I like being a transwoman? If I ever kill myself -- and statistically, that's a real possibility -- I already know exactly how I'll do it. The entire reason I transitioned was because I got to the point where I was like, "well, might as well try this thing first...." and ya know what, it worked! But socially? I am a leaper. It's horrible, lonely, and perhaps shines light on why I frequent the alcoholism thread.

It's fairly obvious to anyone with half a brain there's a difference between cis women and trans women.

Yes.

By that I mean a climate if fear where people can't state the obvious without being called a bigot.

Going the other way the you shouldn't be allowed to creat a climate of fear where trans people can be targeted for assault etc and all the other stuff.

Call yourself whatever you want, anyone else can stick whatever label they like as well.

Anyone crossing the line gets my usual suggested punishment.

That punishment being throw all the nutters into a stadium once a year. Add weapons and let them sort it out. Use machine guns and napalm on any survivors.

I bet within 5 years sanity prevails and people start treating each other better.

Government enforced be nice to each bother. Or else.

A climate of fear? My existence is literally a public debate. I have structured my entire life so that I don't have to use public restrooms unless I must. I'm afraid to join a gym. Even in situations not divided by gender, every interaction with a stranger is still a low-level panic attack at first. You wanna debate transwomen in sports? I get it. You don't want to date someone who you couldn't have kids with? Valid. You want to have a conversation about my right to exist in public? Bigot.

 

[Crezth]

It's fairly obvious to anyone with half a brain there's a difference between cis women and trans women but people are trying to create an emperor has no clothes situation.

By the way, this difference between cis and transwomen cannot be expressed in the sentiment "women are people who menstruate." What truly makes a woman is a question of real significance and a matter of a lot of established feminist scholarship. There is no trace of this tradition to be found in Rowling's statements. Simone de Beauvoir was grappling with Rowling's underdeveloped notions in the 1940's, long before Rowling had even germinated an inkling of a kernel of a notion about womanhood. If Rowling really wanted to be taken seriously as shining a critical light on this issue, I'd expect her to be addressing this in an academic fashion - not via the medium of her legions of devoted fans! The situation being what it is, it's clear she has no actual interest in critically examining the transfeminine mystique: she is merely interested in having her voice heard, and to hell with the consequences.

Even for ciswomen, "people who menstruate" is not sufficient to describe even the shadow of the female gender. As De Beauvoir put it, writing in 1949: "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."

 

[Zardnaar]

LMAO dude.

dude.

DUDE. You think I like being a transwoman? If I ever kill myself -- and statistically, that's a real possibility -- I already know exactly how I'll do it. The entire reason I transitioned was because I got to the point where I was like, "well, might as well try this thing first...." and ya know what, it worked! But socially? I am a leaper. It's horrible, lonely, and perhaps shines light on why I frequent the alcoholism thread.



Yes.



A climate of fear? My existence is literally a public debate. I have structured my entire life so that I don't have to use public restrooms unless I must. I'm afraid to join a gym. Even in situations not divided by gender, every interaction with a stranger is still a low-level panic attack at first. You wanna debate transwomen in sports? I get it. You don't want to date someone who you couldn't have kids with? Valid. You want to have a conversation about my right to exist in public? Bigot.

This is why I think it's more important how you treat each other in day to day life.

I'm not a fan of social ostracized things. People are gonna disagree over all sorts of stupid things.

 

[innonimatu]

How many of those people were sexually assaulted by "men masquerading as women" in the women's washroom? Making up a problem and then saying we should take the problem seriously seems a little obtuse.

Speaking of which, isn't the problem of everyone with an appendage between the legs using the men's room the same, fear of violence?
And do people have guards on the bathroom doors or what? I never understood why this discussion exists in the first place, neven saw one bathroom police in my life fining people for using the "wrong" bathroom according to common sense and personal sensibility.

I dont see anything wrong with so called cis women wanting their own spaces. So called trans women have different experiences and they should respect so called cis women. Biological women have unique experiences that so called trans women dont experience.

Oh, please! How many bathrooms are we going to end up with? We already need to have three with the one for people on wheelchairs. You're arguing for more?

Simone de Beauvoir was grappling with Rowling's underdeveloped notions in the 1940's, long before Rowling had even germinated an inkling of a kernel of a notion about womanhood.

I wonder how women could exist in the long dark age before Simone de Beauvoir grappled with her developed notions of womanhood. Poor people, they didn't knew how to be proper women then?

Her latest foray into the topic is to misgender transmen and then repeat her basic claim that allowing transwomen into female changing spaces is dangerous on the basis of cismen taking advantage of it to sexually abuse women, which in itself is a transphobic argument often used by terfs to scaremonger about transwomen.
...
Where she equates transmen to women, an act which in and of itself is transphobic.

You do realize that the vast majority of people doesn't even understand what the hell you're talking about, with all the cis and trans, men and women combinations? Not to mention "terfs". And never will. If you think this is the path towards even a semi-normal life, thing again.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Oh, please! How many bathrooms are we going to end up with? We already need to have three with the one for people on wheelchairs. You're arguing for more?

The state should bend over backwards to not discriminate since they are impossible to sue/fight most of the time.

I think in public there should be 3 bathrooms, with 1 that anyone at all can use.
That would make everyone happy wouldn't it?

 

[Crezth]

I wonder how women could exist in the long dark age before Simone de Beauvoir grappled with her developed notions of womanhood. Poor people, they didn't knew how to be proper women then?

Well you could try reading The Second Sex for yourself and answering this idiotic rhetorical nugget with a bit more context under your belt, but why don't you tell me what you think it means to be A Man and then see if that's how all men feel about it?

We are all humans, and yet human nature constantly defies our understanding.

 

[Arwon]

Well I guess they are not as black and white as many people think. I mean there are intersexual people, which does make things more complex. But we must often make things simpler just so we can talk about practically anything. Its just practical to talk about men and women in certain situations for the sake of practicality. There are always exceptions no matter what we are talking about.

Yes, social norms and language concepts do also exist. But this is worlds apart from asserting "scientific fact" in the face of the existence of trans people in order to, what, deny they exist? To what end?

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, social norms and language concepts do also exist. But this is worlds apart from asserting "scientific fact" in the face of the existence of trans people in order to, what, deny they exist?

No one's denying they exist.

Might deny some of the labels they use or not know what the hell they're talking about.

It's disingenious to claim otherwise. If you stake out a position and then claim everyone who disagrees with you is a bigot, wrong etc you're also not helping things.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

So if science and facts dont fit your SJW world view - change the science and change the facts? Its hard to find anything wrong with what she said. Is it not a scientific fact that you cant change your sex? Gender is cultural. Gender is fluid. Acting certain way or wearing certain clothes has nothing to do with being a biological man or a woman. Being a biological man or woman is not based on persons feelings. I dont see anything wrong with so called cis women wanting their own spaces. So called trans women have different experiences and they should respect so called cis women. Biological women have unique experiences that so called trans women dont experience.

Its so weird to see America going so far with these issues so fast. Using all these different "phobias" to demonize and bully people needs to stop. Lets just discuss the issues. Issues are complex.

So called cis women clearly have their own experiences which are unique. Why shouldnt we respect that?

These are terf talking points.

The insistence that transwomens experiences somehow corrupt or denigrates cis women's

The insistence on biological determinism

The claim that people are being bullied when they receive pushback for wanting to discuss whether transpeople deserve basic rights we all take for granted.

 

[Arwon]

I'd be pretty surprised if there were a "unique experience" to cis women that is universally experienced specifically by cis women and is also not experienced by any trans men, trans women, non-binary people or intersex people (noting that last group can overlap with any of the others)