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JohnnyW's Epic Reality Mod (ERM)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Creation & Customization' started by JohnnyW, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    (Currently titled)​

    JohnnyW's Epic Reality Mod​


    I have a grand vision for this mod that probably isn't possible until the main code is released. Even then I am only decent at XML currently so it be a difficult road even then. These are a list of my concerns of vanilla and my ideas for this mod that I would hope to implement. They are in no particular order (and may overlap slightly):


    1) Make the eras longer and seem more important. I don't like how the classical era is almost non-existant in many games (that I play at least). I have several goals with this:
    1a) Make the tech tree more robust with techs so each era has more discoveries and feels more important.
    -this would increase the number of beakers required to get through the era and should also make military units viable over a longer period of time.
    1b) Slow down research rates.
    -this would approach the issue from the opposite angle and would make choosing a tech more of an investment (which should promote more planning).

    2) Make :c5science: tied to :c5citizen: drastically less. I don't like this mechanic as the guiding principle for science. Science is advanced by great minds, creativity and curiosity, not by having a giant mob. Possible solutions (still debating)
    2a) Allow science specialists earlier, but less powerful.
    -this would force early decisions on whether to grow or focus on science. This is my favorite solution of the group, but without any other changes this would promote ICS moreso than now. Other changes would be necessary (see below).
    2b) Each city grants a flat :c5science: and buildings give :c5science:.
    -flat science/city also promotes ICS.
    2c) Have :c5science: tied directly to :c5gold:.
    -I don't like this solution and I don't want to directly replicate a slider mechanic.

    3) Change the meaning of placing a city and how to avoid ICS. This combines many ideas, but this is what I would like to address: I want building a new city to always be an okay decision unless placed in a bad spot. I want smart planning to give more benefits than mindless gridding. To do this several things would ened to eb addressed:
    3a) Make it so not every city is profitable out of the gate unless placed well.
    -Could give cities a :c5gold: maintenance cost.
    -Could alter :c5science: mechanics so a new city provides 0 :c5science: (because it's not tied to population, etc).
    3b) Make the city tile yields less favorable.
    -Without relying on the base yields from a city, smarter placement is needed to ensure that the city becomes profitable.

    4) Rework the happiness system. Right now it has almost no link to its concept.
    4a) Reimplement local happiness in a meaningful way.
    -Make production and WLTKD tied to local happiness.
    4b) Remove global :c5angry: penalty for cities.
    -A silly mechanic used to prevent ICS that should be addressed in a different way.

    5) Make luxuries and resources more meaningful. Right now luxury = +5 :c5happy: and bonus resources are sometimes roadblocks for other improvements.
    4a) Add more luxury/resource dependant buildings, or perhaps even units.
    4b) Improve yields of 'bonus' resources.
    4c) Allow different types of improvements to be built on bonus resources (which would allow specialization at the cost of losing the full potential yield of the tile).

    6) Change maintenance so that a worker =/= tank. Ideally I'd like maintenance to be something I could define by the individual unit, but I could settle for being able to base it on combat strength. IDK if either is possible.

    7) Reimplement changeable Civics. Governments change, and unchangeable social policies don't make much sense, especially when you have various different government types all at once.

    8) Add a new system for culture. I like the idea of SPs, but not their implementation. Reworking them to a cultural values system seems more appropriate. These values would be what your empire holds as guiding principles for their interactions, changing various aspects of your empire.
    -example: the value of "Courage" would increase military strength of your units somehow and the value of "Cleanliness" would increase city health; which brings me to my next point:

    9) Reimplement health. :health: It's silly that they removed this mechanic.

    10) Implement crime. Crime is a very real part of society, and I think it should be reflected in the game. Crime would only be a minor factor unless you ignored it completely and grew big cities. It would allow for building like a Courthouse and values like Justice to have an impact though.
    9a) Crime would reduce happiness as well as :c5gold: output of the local city.
    9b) Order would negate the :c5happy: penalty of crime, but not the :c5gold: penalty. Special buildings/wonders/policies would be needed to address this.
    -They would reduce crime or remove the :c5gold: penalty. Unsure how I'd like to implement it atm.

    11) Reimplement religion. I feel religion is too important to neglect.
    11a) I do not want the Civ4 religious system of racing to research a religion. It was a silly mechanic.
    11b) I want religion to affect AI diplomacy to a great extent if the nation values religion over other 'flavors'.

    12) Address production output and rates. Building is too slow.

    13) Address the problem of the AI using 1upt. This will be difficult.

    14) Possibly rework the tech tree into an 'Innovation' or 'Ideas' tree. Not everything you research in civ is a "technology." To represent this I would like to break down Ideas to use more than 1 type of resource towards their discovery. 'Innovation points' would be like the old beakers - generally good for every Idea. :c5science: would then help towards Ideas, but be more effective when researching a scientific Idea. Same thing with using :c5culture: to boost the research of a cultural Idea (these seem to be a lot rarer so this wouldn't make :c5culture: overpowered relative to :c5science: since it would be used for 2 types of 'research').

    I know this is a very ambitious project, and I don't expect much of this to be implemented before the main code is released. I will be working on the doable aspects before then. I don't know when I will have a version for release as I want it to be more than just minor tweaks when I do.

    Also, I am willing to hear suggestions for further improvements/ideas. Thanks!
     
  2. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    I'm going to use this post to document more specific ideas for change and reasoning behind them.

    City defenses:
    1) Decrease city starting defense.
    2) Increase defense per population.
    Reasoning: Settlers go from dealing no damage and being captured when attacked to being massive combat forces that take several units and turns to take as soon as they found a new city. I think that fresh towns with little population and no defensive structures should be easier to be overrun, but more and more difficult as population increases.

    River tiles:
    1) Remove gold bonus.
    2) Add food bonus? Earlier buildings with population benefits? Not sure what to do exactly.
    Reasoning: Rivers may effect trade, but it would be more appropriate to have them count as trade routes, which IDK if it's possible. It seems to me that rivers have historically held their importance in being access to water which allowed irrigation -> farming. This is approximated by Civil Service I suppose (riverside bonus), but the whole river bonus system doesn't work for me.
     
  3. YourDeath/TSAR

    YourDeath/TSAR Warlord

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    very nice, goot vork! ;)
    crime can get higher if u dont have enough food. to reduse crime u should build tribunals and prisons. crime should also make people unhappyer.
     
  4. MikeJep

    MikeJep Chieftain

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    I have been thinking about Science too. I would propose something different.
    I like specialists, btw.
    What about, graded specialists! Initially you can build n00b level buildings rather cheaply. These buildings allow you to create the base level specialists.

    • (Library)
      Philosopher +3:c5science: +3:c5greatperson:

    • (Market)
      Merchant +15% :c5gold: -1:c5gold: +3:c5greatperson:

    • (Temple)
      Priest +2 :c5culture: +:3:c5greatperson:

    • (WorkShop -->I would combine with the Forge)
      Smith +15% :c5production: +3:c5greatperson:

    • No necessary building required
      Worker +1:c5production
     
  5. MikeJep

    MikeJep Chieftain

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    As technology progresses better (more expensive) buildings are available which give more productive specialists.

    • (University)
      Scientists +6:c5science: -1:c5gold: +3:c5greatperson:

    • (Bank)
      Banker +30%:c5gold: -2:c5gold: +3:c5greatperson:

    • (Opera House)
      Composer + 4 :c5culture: -1:c5gold: +3:c5greatperson:

    • (Forge)
      Smith +10% :c5production: +3:c5greatperson:

    • (WorkShop)
      Laborer +2:c5production
     
  6. MikeJep

    MikeJep Chieftain

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    As you get even further along you can get SWEET (very expensive) buildings and specialists.


    • (Research Labs)
      Scientists +12:c5science: -3:c5gold: +1:c5angry: +3:c5greatperson:

    • (Stock Exchange)
      Broker +45% :c5gold: -3:c5gold: +1:c5angry: +3:c5greatperson:

    • (Museum)
      Artist +8 :c5culture: -3:c5gold: +:1:c5angry: +3:c5greatperson:

    • (Factory)
      Factory Worker +5:c5production -:1:c5gold:

    Power plants should make a new resource electricity/power via some conversion process
    • 1 coal >>> 3-5? electricity/power
    • A solar power plants cost could scale per desert and give one energy per.
    • A nuclear power plant could convert 1Uranium >>> Lots of energy.

    Each energy could be used to upgrade a Factory worker doubling his or hers production.

    I know what you are thinking,... Too much production! Well I really would like to simulate an industrial age (not the BS the game has!!!)
     
  7. MikeJep

    MikeJep Chieftain

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    Along with this I would want to have every build cost :c5gold: to initiate.

    • Rush buys would be replaced with +75% :c5gold: AND -50% :c5production: options for every unit/building/wonder. (Percentages subject to tweaking!)
    • Thus simulating some sort of industrial age (a few developed cities with high production) and peripheral cities which collect resources :)c5gold:).
    • The :c5puppet: and :c5citystate: cities would also be TAXED/Bullied into giving tribute at different levels. Higher tribute would result in greater angst/revolt chance.




    I have already discussed :c5food: trading. I would really like to figure out a way to do this!

    Well I kinda got off topic a bit but yeah. I would love for someone to figure out how to add additional specialists to the game. I tried but I didn't get it to work. Modding is confusing when it doesn't work.
     
  8. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    I'm glad you mention this. I had thought about great people too and wanted to standardize them more. I was going to drop scientists to +2 :c5science: and bump artists to +2 :c5culture: as a start. I also wanted to put a specialist slot back into the library. I think maybe instead of having different specialists for each building the specialists could be buffed at certain tech levels; it seems silly to run a library specialist then when you have public schools giving better people, which is also a "WTF concept" IMO.

    Having more great people with different yields is an interesting idea though. I wonder what other types of great people could be potentially added (and make sense to the game).
     
  9. MikeJep

    MikeJep Chieftain

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    CityView.lua

    Seems to be an important file I am looking through it again...
     
  10. MikeJep

    MikeJep Chieftain

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    I would keep the great people the same (interesting idea though!).
    I think the functions of great people need to change. The 1 free tech is over powered!
    Maybe each type of great person allows you the privilege of building a wonder (make them cost less). Using a GP to "unlock" a wonder would at least prevent loosing a wonder race ( I hate that).
     
  11. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    Unfortunately I don't know LUA, but I hope to learn eventually. I will take a look at this file and see what I can decipher with my limited knowledge.

    edit: yeah....I'm not gonna try to figure any of that out atm...
     
  12. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    Hmm....I just came up with a crazy idea for the tech tree:

    Could different yields give different progress to different "techs"?

    Example: Civ4 included religions and government types in the tech tree. This didn't really make sense in that they aren't technologies. It's also weird when it comes to ideas like chivarly or civil service which aren't really technologies.

    Cultural and technological advancements are tied together in human history, and it makes sense that technology influences culture, and vice-versa. What I am proposing is this:

    Put all advancements back into the "tech" tree, but allow multiple yields to affect research. Specifically, use both :c5culture: and :c5science: to advance the innovations, but at different rates.

    Example: we start the game and research Mining. That's more of a scientific innovation than a cultural one, so :c5culture: would yield 1:1 towards its discovery, but :c5science: would yield 3:1. If we make the innovation cost 80 points, then a civilization with 1:c5culture: and 1:c5science: per turn would make 4 points towards the innovation per turn and get it in 20 turns. If they had 1:c5culture: and 3:c5science: they would make 10 points per turn and get it in 8 turns.

    We could then make each innovation have more appropriate ratios. Philosophy could have a 5:1 ratio on :c5culture: and a 1:1 on :c5science:.

    Or perhaps :c5science: wouldn't even need to increase your progress towards Philosophy.

    This probably isn't doable by any stretch of the imagination currently, but man, it would make for an awesome and more fluid tree IMO. Balancing :c5culture: and :c5science: would become more of a crucial decision as well, depending on how you wanted to advance. Other yields could be created and used also.

    Anyway, I would love some feedback on this specific idea, especially from anyone familiar with if this would be possible when the full code is released.
     
  13. pileofnuts

    pileofnuts Chieftain

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    Very interesting idea! The same things have bothered me too. Most of us have probably entertained the idea of having a culture "tech tree." Your idea would make for a much more elegant solution.

    However, I'm afraid the changes you suggest might make the game feel less fun. I imagine the player feeling like he is wasting beakers/culture all the time. Let's say you produce 10 culture and 10 beakers and you're thinking about getting philosophy. I would feel like I was wasting my beakers doing that since they only give me 1 point towards the tech. On the other hand, if I would be getting metal working I would "waste" my culture output (assuming metal working have the reverse ratios). Of course, it's hard to say if this would actually occur when playing the game.

    The original issue might perhaps be better solved by changing "science" in the game to "knowledge" and changing the beaker icon to a book icon. Having a library would effectively be thought of as generating knowledge instead of science.
     
  14. jtb1127

    jtb1127 Deity

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    Great Idea. I haven't seen a religion mod yet and I'd really like one. I agree completely with you on the health as well. Cows, fish, wheat ect should also give health along with hospitals. With the game's current settings, an entire era can be spent building one thing. Each era should defintly be longer.
     
  15. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    In all honesty, with regard to religion I'll probably wait on DUCKS mod and alter it greatly when it is released (and ofc I plan to give credit if I do ;) ). That type of coding is far beyond me atm.

    I also like the above idea of having a more general name for science progress, but I like having the beaker speciality as well. Because of this I'd like it if at least 3 yields went towards research: :c5culture:, :c5science:, and the new "Innovation Points," which would be the new general research yield. I'm thinking of maybe making it more complex than that (slightly and somewhat intuitively).

    Also, MASSIVE edits to the OP above.
     
  16. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    Another thing I have been trying to figure out is how to balance gold in this game. I want :c5food:=:c5production:=:c5gold: instead of :c5food:=:c5production:=2:c5gold:. I've decided to remove :c5gold: from river tiles and instead make river tiles important for other reasons. This will require changing upgrade costs/hurry costs, etc, as well as trade values, among other things.
     
  17. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    If I wanted to make it so that unemployed citizens added unhappiness, how would I go about coding that? Or is it not easy?
     
  18. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    Very ambitious project indeed. I would love to see religion, health etc back in ciV with improved mechanics. Innovative Points idea sounds interesting too.
     
  19. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    Thanks. I've actually been thinking about that system a lot lately. It's one of the things I would want to include in the mod the most, and is one of the things I most highly doubt will ever be possible. :(

    Basically I would want Innovation points to be the base research level. They would be based off of population much like current research is. Once certain Ideas are unlocked they would unlock buildings/civics/other things which would allow for the production of Science. Innovation and Science would be relatively equal in researching Ideas for some time, with Science becoming progressively more important. Therefore, over time, population based research from Innovation points would become far less meaningful than the Science produced in other ways, but it would still help your research rate to a degree. In this way I would maintain some of the vanilla feel along with the early tech pacing without having to give access to a large quantity of Science producers early in the game.

    Of course I also would like other factors to influence research as well such as Culture for some Ideas.

    I sincerely doubt this will ever be possible in civ5, so the most desired part of my mod I don't believe I will be able to implement. :( Because of this I've been thinking about the other aspects a lot as well, and came up with a few more aspects I would like to change:

    15) Add war weariness.
    Currentyl there's no reason to ever end a war. I would add a 'global' happiness hit to all cities of -1 happiness per 50 turns at war or so. This could alter with civics/buildings.

    16) Add more forest/jungle to standard maps.
    I think more green on the map would be more realistic. There is hardly ever any jungle in the maps that I play, and not enough forest IMO. I would have to change the Iroquois UA (and I would change most civ unique stuff probably) and I would make jungle more hazardous.

    17) Improve combat.
    -Of course this is just my opinion, but I've been thinking lately that reducing the range of combat would be good in general. Ranged attacks at first would go 1 hex (with no retaliation) up to 2 with artillery, or possibly cannons. Unit movement would need to be reduced to compensate (as well as city attack range), which could potentially cause clogups. I see this as an issue with 1upt already, so I would hope altering this aspect wouldn't increase problems too drastically.
    -I would also remove instant healing promotions as well as healing in enemy territory, but I would increase base hp slightly to compensate.
    -I would also like to give the AI %bonuses to combat at higher difficulties, which leads me to my next point:

    18) Change difficulty bonuses.
    I don't want the AI to be able to completely neglect aspects of gameplay because they have ridiculous bonuses (happiness boosts plus free units and tech). I would want them to have more % bonuses that would help make up for poor AI decision making.


    I know this is a ton of stuff. :eek:
     

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