Jon Shafer leaves Firaxis!

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Windsor, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. 7thFloorDown

    7thFloorDown Chieftain

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    Some of you are really ignorant in the ways of debating an issue. When the poster stated that there is a "difference between taking responsibility and demonizing" and then later indicated that he/she is not American, it is possible that English is a second language, and thus, they may not have noticed the error. Even if English is their first language, the ability to manipulate language in written form is not indicative of intelligence. Moreover, in a forum such as this, where age and nationality vary so greatly, poor sentence structure should be a somewhat forgiveable offense. Very few posters to this forum possess fantastic sentenceforming skills, and only a few more possess fantastic logical reasoning skills. Thus, to call someone out for displaying one or the other is petty and fruitless.

    What they obviously meant is "there is a difference between calling for a leader to take responsibility and demonizing that leader"... and I'm pretty sure most of you should have figured that out. You were simply jumping on a grammatical mistake because the poster was otherwise correct in his or her statements. Even if you disagree with those statements, you obviously did not have the counterpoints to attack, or else you would have rested your argument solely on your legitimate points and not on what amounts to a "point of order" due to someone's lack of control of a specific language.

    Stick to the point, which seems to be a pointless debate about what effect, if any, Shafer's departure will have on the future of the game.

    Personally, after Civilization IV:Colonization, I decided to not purchase Civilization V until well after its release. They showed some EPIC mistakes with Colonization (such asthe impossibly tedious task of selling commodities without a Customs House, which the original version included) and I saw no reason they would not make these mistakes again. Sadly, I was correct in that. I do agree that a leader has to take responsibility for the project- regardless of salary. In the end, when you accept a position, you are responsible for negotiating the financial incentives and then you are liable for the product. In the end, we all want the same thing: the gaming experience we are used to, with a better AI, better graphics, and more complexity and "real world" challenges.
     
  2. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    Wow. This thread is amazing, and not in a good way. Not the part about John Shafer leaving; people DO decide to move on to other jobs, and/or companies do decide to let people go. That part I'm indifferent on, because I don't think that this'll do anything to the direction the game goes.

    No, my amazement is primarily that none of you seem to enjoy the game.

    Seriously, go over to the Modding forum, and the feel is VERY different. With some relatively minor tweaks, people have made all sorts of changes to make the game better. Tired of ICS? There's a fix for that. (Several, actually.) Want a better map script, a building that generates strategic resources for you, or a different city growth curve? Yep, all been done. There are several "balance" mods that tweak a wide variety of numbers to make the game more even, depending on your personal preferences. There's a mod that basically adds a whole new religion/philosophy system to the game in a way that's superior to what Civ4 had, and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a mod adding new UI elements. And there are a few content mods out there that add new units, new eras, and new wonders.

    I haven't played an unmodded game of Civ5 in the last two months, but all of the games I've played have been enjoyable. Ironically, the most negative comments I've seen were after the last patch, because it broke so many of the most popular mods (hence the hotfix). So I have to ask, are all of these complaints by people who just don't feel like taking advantage of the MASSIVE modability of Civ5? It's far more modifiable than Civ4 was, and we're still finding new things to add. (It's only been three months, after all.)

    And on another note, the whole argument about number of stars is flawed. Personally, I automatically ignore any rating of 1 or 5 stars, because people who think a product is THAT good or THAT bad are nearly always ignoring reality. If a product has substantial flaws then you can't justify a 5-star rating, but if it has any redeeming features or enjoyment then it can't be really a 1-star product. A 5-star rating is the sign of a delusional fanboy, while a 1-star indicates an inveterate complainer.
     
  3. kosak

    kosak Chieftain

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    A high salary commands high responsibilities. Another real word factoid.
     
  4. blind biker

    blind biker King

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    I presume you didn't intend to direct this to me, did you? I never said Shafer shouldn't participate in the forums. If you ask me, I think he should. At least we would have the opportunity to ask him "what were you thinking???????!"
     
  5. blind biker

    blind biker King

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    It's called taking responsibility. I know, that died for company executives in the USA some time ago, but we still remember the concept, don't we?
     
  6. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    No, taking responsibility is on the part of our lead designer. Our part is treating the guy fairly, and a lot of the comments here are unfair to him.
     
  7. blind biker

    blind biker King

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    I agree with that, of course.
    And all I am saying, of all the people in the world, the most responsible for what Civ V has become, is Shafer. That's not being unfair, that's being 100% rational.
     
  8. Maplehurst

    Maplehurst Northern Hermit

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    Thank you.:goodjob:

    The real problem, I think, is that it is rather difficult to tell which mods are good/bad. To me, Civ5 is really CivMod. Unfortunately, there is no effective review system built into the packaged downloader. CivFanatics doesn't have any kind of mod review system either. I suggested this, but the responses were: "Who would do it?" OR "Who would moderate it?" So most Civ5 players are ignorant of the mods that exist.

    Case in point: I've never heard of the religion/philosophy mod. What is it? :confused:

    In addition, most posters on this thread don't play Civ5. They clutter the boards with worthless complaints, and make it difficult for people who play the game to enjoy it and improve it. :sad:

    To these posters: If you don't like the game and can't offer constructive criticism, perhaps you should find another way to spend your time.

    Edit:
    The playerbase has done far less to fix the problems with Civ5 than they had for any other version. Too many players act like petulant children and hope that by throwing a temper tantrum they will get what they want. While Shafer may be *most* responsible for the problems, we are *most* responsible for them not being fixed.
     
  9. Garett20

    Garett20 Prince

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  10. blind biker

    blind biker King

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    We are not in any way responsible for anything. Just what the heck are you talking about? We are the paying customers, not the developers, designers or product managers working for Firaxis.
     
  11. dragomaster

    dragomaster Warlord

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    I see your point in making this series and espeshaly this episode better. But that shafer was shown the door is realy a good thing. Manily becous he was the leader of this project and as in many kind of subjects the leader is ushally the one that will be shown the door first when something is wrong. He realy did an auwfull job and we most remember that he implimented his id's and his version, not anyone els was the manager of this. The result with him as boss of the project was horrid, we can blame many people about this and with all rights but att the end of the day he was the most responsible.
     
  12. Bad Brett

    Bad Brett King

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    I think you're wrong. I think Shafer was a puppet in many ways. I think 2k Games are the real bad guys.
     
  13. kosak

    kosak Chieftain

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    I don't understand. What can paying customers do to make a game better other than trying to galvanize the developers to see what's wrong and make suggestions on how to fix it? I guess you can call that being petulant but we can't really do much else...
     
  14. Maplehurst

    Maplehurst Northern Hermit

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    I'm guessing you only read the last sentence of my post? tl;dr? In your response you seem to miss my three major points:

    1. If players are unhappy with Civ5/CivMod then they should join the modding community here and work towards improving it.
    2. This community has already created several mods which address some of the major issues with Civ5/CivMod. Unfortunately, we do not yet have a good rating system that advertises these mods.
    3. Many of the posters in this thread are not paying customers. Many of them have never even played the game. Yet they will readily spew hatred directed at the game's lead designer.

    I would like to see constructive criticism - which may even "galvanize the developers," but some of the vitriol expressed in this forum is useless.

    Thanks! I'm going to check this out tonight.
     
  15. Androrc the Orc

    Androrc the Orc Emperor

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    Then he should have resigned - as should the rest of the team. That they didn't shows that they were at the very least complicit with the direction the project was being taken.
     
  16. Androrc the Orc

    Androrc the Orc Emperor

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    That is simply not true. While LUA may provide more possibilities than Python, the lack of a modifiable DLL means that, as of now, Civ4 is still vastly more modifiable.
     
  17. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    In a way I feel sorry for Jon Shafer.

    Don't get me wrong here. Shafer 5 is still an unmitigated debacle.

    However, I think Firaxis and 2K Games had an overall vision that they wanted to achieve.
    In other words, make the game for the mass market. Jon Shafer had to go with the flow so to speak.

    Jon Shafer made a lot of mistakes with the game but in the end, I think the greed of 2K Games in getting the game out way too early made the game even worse.

    Really, I think Jon Shafer did the best he could with the resources he had. The big problem was he was handicapped by the incompetent Firaxis and 2K Games. It's like running a marathon with 20 pound weights strapped to your legs.

    Firaxis and 2K Games now have to fix this disaster which is mostly of their own doing.
     
  18. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    That's nonsense.

    As much as I appreciate mods (Rise Of Mankind or BuG I'm looking at you) I see nothing good about bazillion of mods a'la Oblivion, that I have to spend half of the afternoon to install and make sure they won't crash into one another. And even if I will manage to do all that and play few games that will be somewhat enjoyable - credits are for fans, not devs - the people I've given my money.

    Most importantly - with so many little mods here and there there's simply no way I can discuss Civ5 with fellow gamers in the way I did with previous civ games - if everyone has different version of Civ5 how can I immerse myself in debates about winning strategies or participate in something like ALC series?

    And to generalize - "oh you who don't like the game are spewing useless vitriol instead of fixing the game" - stop being silly. If not for all those "haters" then who knows how long we'd be waiting for Horsemen nerf, Diplo improvement (yeah ok still waiting, but at least we can all now see how psycho AI is) or remember that amusing stuff like Engineers giving same amount of hammers as Citizens or Wealth at 10%?

    Just because people dare to criticize the game doesn't mean they should be shot, stop whiteknighting failed release and accept that there's thin line between love and hate.
     
  19. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    Well, judging by posts in the steam forum, it looks like civ5 is still much better received than even Modern Warfare 2.

    http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1679004&highlight=civ

    People who keep referring to the game as a disaster are deluding themselves IMO. Sure, you mightn't like the game, but stacked up against a lot of other recent games from major publishers it fares pretty well. It's just the enormous success of civ4 and bts are hard to beat.
     
  20. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    Ah yes, and the mandatory "it's not that bad, could be worse y'know". Mediocre is not good though it's new standard nowadays. Lets keep our delusions to ourselves okay?
     

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