Another question that will probably never receive a public answer: Is it Jon Shafer or Firaxis who have to be blamed ? Who is "guilty" of this failure ?
Even if an answer won't changed the fact that Civ 5 is a "rotten game", Sid should take care that his baby won't die.
We all have to wait now.
Is it called "Jon Shafer's Civilization 5" or is someone else's name in the title? I'd think it was ultimately THAT person's responsibility to ensure their name continued to mean what it used to, or to have his name removed from the product's title.
Öjevind Lång;10049948 said:
I enjoyed Civ IV a lot, but I''m becoming just a little tired of it being canonized as the Unsurpassed, Holy Game Blessed by the Seven Popes (and a Kangaroo).
Okay, now you're just making fun of kangaroos. There's no place for that here.
IMNSHO the main fault of Civ5 lies with all the people who bought it like sheep. Companies exist to make money, and if they can make money by selling junk then they will.
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But the main blame lies with the fans - you should know by now that PC games companies use early adopters as beta testers, what you do with your money really counts, what you say afterwards really doesn't.
Absolutely. If they weren't doing their due diligence to make sure that what they bought was what they wanted, or at least raised holy hell about it if they couldn't get their money back, then they've just told the corporates that we're here for the express purpose of being ripped off. Fools and their money deserve to be parted.
However, I'll disagree with your last sentence. Spore didn't sell nearly as well as it could have because of MASSIVE complaining about its lameness. I would've bought it, but thank God I heard the ruckus first. Maybe it's a cute game for kids, but it's not what I want to play.
Öjevind Lång;10053857 said:
Here we go again. I just meant that those complaints have been going on for months. They are perferctly legitimate, but it seems a bit fixated to keep complaining for an entire autumn and winter. Why not play Civ IV instead?
For the same reason you're complaining about the ruckus?
Jon Shaefer isn't the only one to blame. Firaxis has to take a large part of the blame. I understand their desire to charge $5 for each mod to what seems a rather poor game but feel it's too much gouging. And that is probably what motivated releasing the game too soon and turning a lot of the loyal fans into unpaid beta testers.
Jon Shaefer at 24 is too young to be lead designer. It isn't his fault he jumped at the chance, it's Firaxis for hiring someone that young and inexperienced. He was in over his head but he saw his chance and he took it.
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I think the people who are upset at shelling out $50 for this game should blame Firaxis for this. For not having a more experienced, better lead designer and putting the game out far too soon. Although it looks like the patches aren't fixing the basic problems.
I'll tell you what: at 15 I had the talent to design something like this. Age doesn't matter. However, experience and attitude do. Jon had certain constraints placed on what he could do, most notably conforming to a schedule. If he didn't have enough force of personality or clout to get his way when he needed it to, then that's an experience problem, not an age problem. There are people who have become self-made millionaires before reaching puberty. Stop harping on the guy's age.
It seems to me that many people who complained about Jon Shafer dumbing down Civ V don't remember that Civ I was considerably less complex than the latest iteration. If Sid got the kind of grief from gamers that Shafer is getting, Microprose/Firaxis might not have continued with the series. Perhaps Civ IV was suffering from feature creep and it was time to prune back and make way for new improvements in the next version.
Civ4 DOES have a lot of feature-creep. I wouldn't recommend it to any casual player. Civ 5? I don't know. There are more casual players than complex players, that's for sure, and they're dumber about their wallets, making them good targets.
However, this community was sold on the idea that Civ5 was going to be the next step in Civving. It was asserted or implied that it was going to be... ummm... more complex than it turned out to be. Most who feel betrayed do so because of that. We were lied to. Having more or less learned my lesson, I had cautious optimism, and a firm decision to wait for non-pulp reviews before buying. My (irrational?) dislike of Steam destroyed almost any possibility for me to buy the game, though, so I was out of the running a little earlier than most.
Everyone always wants to blame someone. He is blaming people who bought the game.
It's fans faults?
because after Civ 4 success, they expect something just as good... and it's their faults for Firaxis making a crappy game?
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E.G. A guy gets robbed.
He says "Well it's his fault for standing there; the robber is innocent"
<faceplam>
Yes, it IS fans' fault. They didn't do their due diligence. It's our own responsibility to make sure we're not getting ripped off, and that means NOT buying something too soon. Lots of people impulse-buy. The marketing industry gets that, and sells them crap to get them to buy impulsively. They know A LOT about how to push our buttons and get us to do things. I've been studying this for a while now, and it's scary what we now know about the human mind and how it works.
If fans would STOP pre-buying, if they would DEMAND that reviews be HONEST, and if they would REFUSE to be treated like ATMs, companies wouldn't pull this kind of crap. A bunch of people bought the game because Civ4 was great, and because the marketing people promised the new game would be better than the old. They skewed the information to give us a faulty picture. Originally this was innocently done because details weren't known and were subject to change, but later, it was done purposefully with the bogus reviews, and it wasn't until the game hit the shelves and people could see it for themselves that the game wasn't what they wanted.
I get why the game mags cave to the pressure. I've had a few people ask ME to do reviews of their products on my site, for which they'd pay me. I took a look at their product, and told them what I'd be saying about it, and I never got the go-ahead to publish. Funny, that. Lucky me, I don't need their money, so I can afford to have integrity. If we demanded that from ALL our news sources, we'd start getting it. They wouldn't dare do a puff piece for fear of losing their customers overnight.