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Josef The Immortal - Need some help with this start

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by elitetroops, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    I realized I haven't played aggressive or industrial leaders in a while, which is why I for this game picked none other than the great Stalin.

    I started this on my own, got to the point where my first settler, escorted by a warrior, bumped into a barb archer and would have had to turn back after the escort was killed. The start is tricky and I had made many bad choices before that, so I don't mind starting over. I think this start has potential for some really fancy stuff, but it also presents some quite tough challenges, so I need some help. For starters, I can't figure out what would be the best build and tech order here.

    The start:



    Looks like there's plains 2N and 2N1E of settler, probably some resources there. When starting next to marble hill, I always consider settling on that, but I don't think it is smart in this case. I would lose anything in the fog to the north and also both clams until I can get a workboat to the other side of the landmass, which might be soon or very far in the future. Also, I'm already on a PH and the marble hill would only gain me one hammer. Scout can move 1N to reveal all eastern water tiles that I would gain from settling on marble, but even if they were both fish I would still prefer SIP because of the resources that should be to the north. Any other ideas?

    Marble and IND will probably call for some wonders and a lot of failgold. But at the moment, the marble hill is the only tile a worker could work, until I research BW, AG or AH (depending on what is up north). Unfortunately, I don't have fishing either... But could this be a start where it is worth it to go fishing first while building warrior, then WB and worker at size 2?

    Some info from demographics screen:
    Spoiler :


    Mansa Musa is in the game! :yeah:


    Forgot to mention map info:
    Spoiler :
    Fractal - normal size & speed - no huts/events
     

    Attached Files:

  2. OJimiJam

    OJimiJam Warlord

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    Without the time/energy/cognitive capacity to work out the optimal i like:

    SIP

    BW > Fish while working the marble, building a worker. Worker mines marble then chops a wb. Any free time can be spent pre-chopping forrests.

    GLH looks pretty excellent even at this early stage (and we will be picking up a lot of the techs for it anyway). Then we might even have a late shot at oracle w/ marble, some commerce from seafood, industrious and some trees to chop.

    If no copper probably try and get by with agg warriors for a while.

    May play this one tomorrow if im not still kanckered
     
  3. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    That's an interesting plan, definitely worth considering. And a lot better than what I did on my first try, which had my worker sitting several turns unable to do anything until I got in BW...

    And yes, please, go ahead and play it! :) I said this start has potential for some fancy stuff, but actually, I should have said that it probably requires some fancy stuff. Not the easiest one based on the little I saw on my first try.

    Anyway, have to go to sleep now, but before that I moved scout SE and SIP in hope of comments on how to proceed. This is what I see:



    Not the strongest start food-wise, but plains cow+marble give plenty of early hammers. And then there's some choppable material. Is BW still the strongest open here? Appart from 1C on marble there is absolutely no commerce at all until I'm working those clams or have chopped some riverside tiles. That's why I was thinking fishing first could be good, to speed up research of BW and AH, but perhaps the difference in research from the two clams isn't enough to justify that?
     
  4. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    I like fishing > bw > sailing (LH) to start off with. PH start lets you grab two more aggressive warriors on your way to 2 pop and then max hammers on FB in 5 turns > 2nd FB in 6 turns by working clam/marble.

    Would grab some workers after reaching 3 pop, 2nd worker chop assisted. No clue about math....but it's what I'd do.
     
  5. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I'd go: Animal Husbandry ---> Fishing ---> The Wheel ---> Sailing ---> Masonry ---> Bronze Working. The Plains Cow is still a strong tile, and, more importantly, you can see a Grassland Cow within easy reach. A city settled on the Desert can share the capital's Clam or Plains Cow while it grows. The Wheel gives your Worker something to do.

    My attempt, up to 1200 BC, T70:

    Spoiler :


    Great Lighthouse in. The second city was badly settled. :crazyeye: I should have taken the spot 1E of the Gold. I think I miscounted the number of tiles between the current location and the Fish (at present, there's only room for one city). Apart from that, I'm happy with the locations. North of the capital has space for two or three good cities.

    Stalin is Industrious and the capital has Marble in the BFC. No Forests have been chopped yet, so the Parthenon and Great Library should be easy to pick up. Then I'd head towards Lib.

    Finding Horses was lucky, but Agg. Warriors are more cost effective than Chariots. Some Horse Archers could be chopped to capture barb cities.
     

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  6. Smilingrogue

    Smilingrogue Raging Barbarian

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    @ Doshin

    Spoiler :

    Could you please explain your reasoning behind settling Rostov where you did? I realise that doing so allows you to get access to fresh water. But wouldn't settling it 1 East on the coast make for a stronger city out of the gate by being on the coast and gaining two trade routes with the GLH? It would still pick up bunches of flood plains for food and the health problems from losing freshwater wouldn't be crippling until much later and harbours should take care of that. I would appreciate it if you can explain what I am missing. :)
     
  7. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    @Smilingrogue

    Spoiler :
    It was a bad settle too. Your reasoning is entirely correct. I have lost 4 trade routes in total. :(

    So, in short, my save presents an excellent example of how not to settle cities. But the general thrust of my settling pattern was, I think, correct. Push out towards the AI, settle city #2 for the commerce boost, and then later you can backfill. The GLH can boost at least 9 good cities, and still more if you send Settlers into the SW Tundra. Because the capital has five resource tiles to work, there's not much reason to whip. And production is high for this stage in the game due to the capital's three hammer tiles and Industrious trait.
     
  8. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    Personally I would go fishing>AH>Sailing>masonry>BW
    With sailing in hand really can't see much of use on wheel early on.
    I would also start with worker [partial] switch to 6 turns to make workboat and finish worker enjoying clam commerce.
    On check i think GLH is finished before BW in totally safe time.
     
  9. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Wow, so many openings suggested that I would have never thought of. I've played way too many AH-AG-BW-Pottery-Writing games lately... This gives me a lot of food for thought.

    At what point in the teching would it be necessary to aim for PH for the Oracle? I'm assuming that's a good one to get with IND/marble.

    @Doshin:
    Spoiler :
    You seem to be doing very well. It's funny how I look at a start and think it's really difficult, but in the hands of a capable player it looks so easy!

    In my first attempt I had planned to place a city just where you had Rostov, but as Smilingrouge suggests, 1E with GLH is probably better. 1E would also leave more options to pick up the stone. So thank you for making this mistake for me! I like learning from my own mistakes, but it's even better to learn from other peoples mistakes. ;)

    There's the ugly gap with desert, some grass and no resources between your three settled cities. Are you planning to do anything about that or just let Pacal fill it with crappy cities?
     
  10. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Well, assuming that I had settled like a player who knew what he or she was doing (St. Petersburg 1S2E, Rostov 1E) the gap would be a little larger. Even so, I don't think it really matters. What does the desert have to offer? Some Stone? A hidden Iron, Oil, or Uranium? Gambling on the possibility of Iron seems a little premature, and the other two resources come so late in the game that you should have long taken charge of that land.

    That leaves the Stone, which would be nice, but can you justify settling an expensive and unproductive city just to gain access to this resource? Maybe, or maybe not. Remember that every city you settle costs 100 :hammers: and, once settled, incurs maintenance each turn. Personally, I would be happy to let Pacal take the spot while I head towards Cuirassiers. :hammer:
     
  11. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Thanks, that actually also answered a question I knew would be coming up later. When to war. With horses as the only strategic resource and Pacal and his Holkans as the closest neighbour, early war seems out of the question...

    Are you planning to keep your capital in Moscow? When I saw gold+FP my immediate thought was that I should consider moving capital there later, which is why I was looking at the spot where you are now, with more floodplains. I can't recall when I would have ever built a palace, but could it be worth it in this case? Would also reduce maintenance in the Mayan cities once they are incorporated into our happy Russian federation.
     
  12. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I don't think I'd move the capital. Here's the thing: the Palace contributes 8 :commerce: per turn. A coastal capital with the GLH will contribute at least 8 :commerce: per turn. That goes up to 10+ commerce with Currency, and increases still further with Harbors, overseas trade routes, larger cities, and so on.

    Even if you manage to settle right in the middle of the Floodplains, how are you going to both (a) build a new Palace; (b) grow Cottages to a sufficiently large size to outpace the coastal trade routes; and (c) set up infrastructure in time for your first Great Scientist? (Which will, as a rule, build an Academy in the capital to boost the Palace's commerce in addition to the standard tiles).

    The FPs spot would eventually prove to be a better Bureaucracy site, but your current capital could be much worse (hammers get boosted to!). Moving the capital will have much less of an impact upon your chances of victory than, say, figuring out how best to generate several Great People of your choice.
     
  13. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    But Pacal is a big panzy lol. I don't know exact numbers or peace weight modifiers but if you steal a worker, or just declare on him in general he will do a peace treaty extremely soon.... and even open borders up with a pretty big negative diplo number.

    I'm actually in the process of moving the Capital in my game lol. Should be finished before 1AD and at around 5-6 Pop lol. But then again, I didn't go TGL route after all, but rather, The Pyramids!! I'm opting for a slow game with less trades and mass settling of great people. And my tech route was wacky! Fish > AH > Wrt > Alpha (lots of trades though, seriously!) > Aesthetics > Lit > TGL finished pre 500 BC. Um, can you say about 10 turns of workers doing nothing (cause early tech path) =/.

    Kinda just messing around in this game but around 1AD I'm looking at 7 cities with 9 workers and decent research.
     
  14. Thrar

    Thrar King

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    I'd start with BW->Fishing (chop WB)->AH->Masonry and on towards Oracle. That lets you see both copper and horses early, so you can settle your second city accordingly.
     
  15. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    My attempt until 1 AD:

    I followed Doshin's early tech path, which proved to be quite effective.

    The lands in the west were too good to be left to Pacal, so I did some very aggressive settling towards him, putting my first two cities very far from capital. 1st on horse/gold, second on gold/stone. The barbs built a city north of my second city and Mansa Musa was kind enough to kill all their defenders, leaving only a slightly wounded archer for me. :)

    By 1 AD I have 7 cities and just finished a settler for my 8th. Have built GLH, Mids, Colossus and TGL. I just traded for calendar and am considering putting NE on hold in cap to give MoM a shot. Other civs have had Cal for quite a while, but if I chop a couple of the remaining forests... who knows. Am aiming for Music and the GA powered GA next, so MoM would fit nicely into the picture.

    My first GP was a GM that I used to bulb MC. At that time Mansa was the only one with Aplha and I was horribly behind everybody in tech. I traded MC and Aest for alpha, math and some other filler tech, then I was able to catch up by trading filler techs from other leaders. Second GP was a GS that built academy in cap.

    After getting currency last turn, I am making >100 :science:/turn at break even and am quite happy with my situation. :)

    My empire:
    Spoiler :

    The south with two planned cities and a barb city:
    Spoiler :

    Tech situation:
    Spoiler :

    Wonders:
    Spoiler :


    Hmm... somewhere out there, most likely not on my continent, there is a lone wonder whore.
     

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