Jotnar Balance and Discussion

Valkrionn

The Hamster King
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May 23, 2008
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With the new patch, the Jotnar have been changed extensively. Have any questions or complaints? Post them here. ;)

Spoiler :


  1. Civ-Wide Changes:
    1. No city size cap.
    2. Jotnar Staedding added by palace rather than python code.
    3. No link to AC for spawn rate. Too limiting for evil Jotnar.
    4. Kindred Promotions (Woodkin, Seakin, Firekin, Frostkin, Stonekin, and Stormkin)
    5. Palace mana Mind, Creation, and Law. Spirit is pretty useless for them. Life is also a possibility to replace Mind.
    6. Unique monument. Gives +1 gold and +1 culture. Spawns a Jot Adult when built.
    7. Unique barracks. Gives +1 happy, 10% commerce bonus. Requires code of laws. Allows them to build Thrall Axeman (replacing orc conscripts)
    8. Staeding gives +1 food to water tiles. Encourages coastal starts.
    9. Changed flavourstart to weight coastal start, riverside, hills.
    10. Changed starting techs to seafaring and crafting. Allowing them to use water techs immediately is very important, as I changed the flavourmod settings to drop them in coastal starts. They don't have any DOMAIN_WATER units, so essentially all seafaring is doing is letting them work the tiles and use pearls. Crafting lets Hephaustus or Father beeline the metal techs.
    11. Traditions civic loses number of cities maintenance bonus entirely. Gives 25% enslave chance.
    12. Archery techs, Poisons unblocked. Mounted line techs blocked.
    13. Eliminated distance maintenance entirely, +50% number of cities maintenance. The Jots can wander all over the map and settle the nicest spots they find...but if they try to spam cities their economy will tank.
    14. 2.25 food per population. Not a huge nerf, but it does noticeably slow early growth.
    15. +100% trade route income. Might dial that back some...but it seems a better solution than adding gold to buildings. Encourages playing them as intended.
    16. Civ bonuses to improvements....gone. +1 :food: on water tiles, improved fishing boat(sea farm). That's it.
  2. Leader Changes:
    1. Mother Enningas:
      • Spiritual/Financial
    2. Father Kasghenal:
      • Conqueror/Slaver
    3. Uxol the Half-Breed:
      • Arcane/Treacherous/Raiders/Pretender
        • Pretender: Grants Estranged to all Melee and Disciple units.
      • Egrass becomes an Arcane unit for Uxol, is able to take Channeling 2 at KotE.
    4. Hephaestus:
      • Blacksmith/Veinhunter/Emergent
  3. Unit Changes:
    1. Thalls:
      • Slaves receive an effect promo. Changes the name to thrall. Thralls can be used a couple of new ways. "Long Pork" is a heal spell that sacrifices a thrall. "Conscript Thrall" converts a thrall to a Warrior. "Recruit Thrall Guide" converts a thrall to a scout.
      • Unit_Warrior receives an effect promo that changes their name to Thrall Conscript. More likely to defend the stack, defense only (preventing them from having spirit guide XP land on them), free unit.
      • Unit_Scout and Unit_Hunter receive an effect promo "Thrall Guide". Defense only, free unit. They can't pop lairs, but they can explore.
      • At Deception a promo becomes available for Hunters: "Thrall Cultist". Overwrites Thrall Guide, -1 Combat, Invisible_Animal, can pillage, extra first strikes and withdraw, infects culture, can explore rival territory, some other minor stuff. Expendable terrorist units, essentially.
      • At Code of Laws + Bronze Working barracks can be built, which allows Axemen. Effect promo renames them "Thrall Militia". They can attack. Considering giving them some penalty. Combat % penalty outside borders? Abandon % outside borders?
    2. Jot Citizen:
      • No big changes here. They can only upgrade directly to bottom-tier units (Cyklops, Wild Troll, Huscarl, Worker, Settler, Jot Adept, Reaver). When in a city they gain a promotion that adds 2 hammers to the city production, "Artisan".
    3. Worker:
      • Made them eligible for the Age upgrade promotions. Also eligible for "Artisan"
    4. Melee Line
      1. Huscarl:
        • Available at Mining. 4/6, can use bronze weapons. Eligible for "Artisan". Huscarls were historically laborers when they weren't fighting.
      2. Hill Giant:
        • Cartography, Bronze. Can use bronze, iron weapons. No building requirement.
      3. Wielder:
        • No change other than tier from 2 to 3.
      4. Berzerker:
        • 13/8. Fire theme stripped. Randomly go enraged. Immune to and cause fear. Heal after combat, blitz, pillage on move. No national limit.
      5. Jotun:
        • 16/16. Can cast Warsong. Buffs stack w/blitz, pillage on move, march, +1 move. Horribly powerful...but an end-of-line super-expensive unit should be.
      6. Titan:
        • Currently unchanged.
    5. Archery Line: This is mostly accomplished through promotions rather than unique units...
      1. Hurler:
        • Requires Archery. -2/+2 Combat/Defense. 3 Ranged Strength, 1 range, 15% limit. Bonus to city and hill defense. +1 first strike. Costs 50 gold, requires archery range, available to melee. Changes unitcombat to archer (which is needed for the subsequent promotions)
      2. Strong Arm:
        • Requires Bowyers, Fletcher, 50 gold. +3 ranged combat, +15% limit, +1 first strike.
      3. Deadeye:
        • Requires Bowyers, Age 100, Bowyer, 50 gold. +3 ranged combat, +15% limit, increases range to 2, +1 first strike.
      4. Tryggvi.
        • Actual unique unit, upgrades from Wielder. With all the archery promos (it only comes with the first one...but buying the rest is a no-brainer) it is a 10/18, ranged strength 12 (70% limit, range 3), collateral damage, marksman, 6-9 first strikes engine of shooty death. Of course, by the time you have it you've sunk about 600 gold into the thing + the cost of all the buildings and tech. National limit 4.
    6. Recon Line:
      1. Wild Troll:
        • I added Hidden Nationality back...but will probably remove it again. Too big a nerf for Uxol. At Hunting they get an effect promo that allows defensive bonuses, +1 move, +1 defense.
      2. Troll Hunter:
        • Not available until Tracking. Otherwise similar.
      3. Troll Ranger:
        • 9/8 (9/9 with effect promo), available at Animal Handling. 3 First strikes.
      4. Troll Elder:
        • No major changes.
    7. Disciple Line:(Need Cyklops art for all disciples, or need to drop the Cyklops entirely.)
      1. Cyklops:
        • Requires Mysticism, pagan temple, Education. 4/4, starts w/channeling 1, creation 1, medic 1, divine. All jot disciples can use the spread state religion spells.
      2. Mouth:
        • Requires Priesthood. 6/6. Starts w/channeling 2, medic 2, jot spellcaster, mind 1, law 1. Can only be upgraded from Cyklop.
      3. Voice:
        • Equivalent of High Priest. Requires Theology. 8/8. Add channeling 3, mind 2, law 2. National limit 4.
    8. Adept Line:
      1. Sloegrrekkr:
        • Basic adept. Requires KOTE, no building. 4/4. Jot spellcaster, channeling 1, spirit guide.
      2. Speaker:
        • Unchanged
      3. High Speaker:
        • Boosted to 8/8.
    9. Naval/Mounted Line: No actual unitcombat Naval units.
      1. Reaver:
        • 5/5, 2 move, unitcombat mounted. Requires Bronze Working and Sailing. Upgrades from Jot Adult. No bad goodies, access to Bronze and Iron weapons, can cast escape (sneak away and return to port).
      2. Freebooter:
        • 10/10, 3 move, air combat 8/range 1/60% cap, collateral 100/60/7, Blitz. Expensive tier 4, upgrades from Reaver.
      3. Reaver(Promotion):
        • Promotion that Reavers start with. 5 gold earned per successful combat, amphibious/waterwalking/boarding, +50% pillage
      4. Longship(Promotion):
        • Autoacquire promo, requires reaver. When the unit steps onto a water tile their art changes to lOngship art, +1 visibility, +2 moves, +2 power/defense, +15 withdraw, +3 cargo.
      5. Pirate(Promotion):
        • Promotion available at Optics. 100 gold cost. Can gain hidden nationality, +2 Combat, +1 move, +100% pillage, pillage on move.
      6. Longship2(Promotion) (needs new name):
        • Autoacquire effect promo. Requires Astronomy, Pirate. +2 move, +2 combat, +1 visibility, +15% withdraw.
  4. Kindreds:
    1. Woodkin (Troll only):
      1. Available to recon only through spell, requires Hunting, 100 gold. +25 attack/defense% in forest&jungle. Forest stealth (added as prereqOr along w/Forest Stalker).
      2. Woodfather: Requires Woodkin, Age 100. Doubles attack bonus in forest&jungle, Nature affinity 1.
      3. Woodkin spells/prereqs
        • Bloom: Woodkin
        • Poison blade : Woodkin + age 50
        • Mesmerize: Woodkin + age 100
        • Entangle: Woodfather
        • Summon Treant: Woodfather
    2. Seakin (Troll only):
      1. Promotion requires 100 gold, Fishing. Must be adjacent to water when transformation spell cast. -25% combat and -1 move on land. +50% combat on water, + 5 move.
      2. Triton: Requires Astronomy and age 100. Gives Water affinity 1, some other stuff.
      3. Seakin spells
        • Sea farm: Build Order, rather than a spell. Creates an improvement that is essentially a slightly improved fishign boat. Considering a gold cost. Represents Seakin actually herding/farming the sealife. Might disallow workboats for Jots...as sacrificing units doesn't feel right.
        • Submerge: Spell gives stealth on water. Have it available with just seakin right now...open to increased prereq if needed.
        • Capsize: 1 turn bonus to first strikes and withdraw, + 50% vs. unitcombat naval. Requires age 50.
        • Summon Water Elemental: Requires Triton
        • Tsunami: Requires Triton. Same effect as OO spell.
    3. Frostkin:
      1. Requires Philosophy, 100 gold. -1 Combat, -25% on desert. +2 cold damage, +25% on tundra and snow.
      2. Mulcarn's chosen: Requires Theology, age 100. Ice affinity 1.
      3. Frostkin spells
        • Freeze: Turns tile to tundra or snow. 2 turn delay.
        • White Out: Snow Stealth. Requires tracking.
        • Frozen lands: Same as old version, does a small amount of damage.
        • Summon Ice Elemental: Yup. Requires Mulcarns Chosen.
        • Snowfall: Requires Mulcarns chosen.
    4. Firekin:
      1. Requires Warfare, 100 gold. Reverse terrain bonuses of frostkin. -1 Combat, +2 fire damage.
      2. Efreet: Requires Rage, age 100. Fire Affinity 1.
      3. Firekin spells
        • Scorch: Considering a delay...otherwise the same.
        • Fireball: Requires age 50.
        • Ring of flame. Like the AV spell. Requires age 100.
        • Summon Fire Elemental: Requires Efreet.
        • Pillar of Flame: Requires Efreet.
    5. Stonekin:
      1. Requires Construction, 100 gold. +2 defense. +25% on hills and peaks, -25% in marsh. Immune to first strikes, +25% workrate.
      2. Juggernaut: Age 100, Blasting powder. Immune to magic, ignore building defense, Earth affinity 1.
      3. Spelunker(Promotion): Hills invisibility. Autoacquire, requires sanitation.
      4. Stonekin Spells
        • Earth's Boosom: Turns tile into a hill. 2 turn delay.
        • Earthquake: Requires age 50.
        • Stoneskin (affects whole stack): Requires age 100
        • Summon Earth Elemental: Requires Juggernaut
        • Crush: Requires Juggernaut.
    6. Stormkin:
      1. Requires Trade, 100 gold. Aircombat 2/range 1/15%, +1 first strike, +15% withdraw, Defensive strike 10/5, -3 Strength, +2 Lightning, Immune to Lightning. Allows Hurler, Flying.
      2. Thunder: Requires mercantilism. +3 air combat, +2 moves, +15% withdraw, +10/5 defensive strike, Air affinity 1.
      3. Stormkin spells
        • Windtalker: Create building in city that gives +1 research/+1 gold, disappears if the caster leaves.
        • Lightning Bolt: Summon lightning elemental. Requires age 50.
        • Bellow: Same as Dragon's Roar. Age 100
        • Summon Air Elemental: requires Tempest
        • Maelstorm: requires Tempest.
 
The spawn rate on citizens might need to be toned down some, I don't ever remember seeing something like what's in the attached image.
 

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They do need some new documentation, thought.
 
Wow. I'm playing a game right now with the Jotnar under Uxol. I guess I'll see if I get swarmed by giants. I'm the Bannor, too, which is gonna bring a negative between me and him. Crap.
 
15 turns later and I have another 10 citizens :lol:. Also the city maintenance penalty is either not enough or not working properly, I have 7 cities running 100% research with a 14 gold surplus per turn.
 
Hmm... That's only 3 citizens per city, but given the turn might be a tad excessive. What speed was that on?

To clarify, the max amount of giants went from this:

Code:
iMaxGiants = 3 + (3 * pPlayer.countNumBuildings(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING'))) - (CyGame().getGlobalCounter() / 5)

To this:

Code:
iMaxGiants = 4 + (6 * pPlayer.countNumBuildings(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING')))

Higher base value, more per city, and no dependence on AC... I think the number per city will be first to drop down again if we decide to nerf them.



As for Pearls, in my view it's a side effect. These are Nordic inspired giants, not Greco-Roman... Meaning a push towards coastal cities and raiding is a must. Seafaring accomplishes that, and allows us to give them a flavourstart value for coastal terrain. Fishing is too strong, as it allows immediate improvement, and allowing you to work water tiles with Traditions is a bit off... Mostly because it leads to NOTHING along the Naval line. Pearls are a minor thing. :p



About documentation.... Will be working on that. Hopefully Vermicious will do it, as he made the changes and knows them better... If not, I can root through the code. Something like the pages for the Malakim and Doviello.... Need to make one for the Mechanos and D'tesh as well. And eventually the Bezeri. :p
 
I'm at home on dial-up so the posted picture is taking forever to load...how many citizens are we talking?


I found myself with about 2-3 per city hanging around as garrisons/production boosts for most of the game (normal speed, diety). Are we seeing far more than that on average? I know you can get some absurd turns where 5 pop....but that is a side effect of the randomness. Easy to change the formula, happily.

I'm more concerned about the economy not scaling properly. I was tweaking that down as I tested...further tweaking is not a problem. We can crank the number of cities maintenance up as high as we need to.

Documentation...I will do. I'm going to be out of town for a week (and drunk for most of it, hopefully) so it won't be immediate. :p
 
....and a lot of the spoiler list is out of date, I see. :lol:


If you have questions over the next couple of days feel free to bombard me. I'll answer them as quickly as I can. :D
 
Any chance you could post an updated list then? :lol:

As for the screenshot, 12 adults, 4 cities. Didn't strike me as an issue until I saw that it was only turn 76.


Yeah, I will when it isn't 2:30 in the AM. :lol: Most of it is on the team board already.


As for 12 adults...he started with 2. 4 cities means 4 monuments, so that is 4 more. So 6 spawned over 76 turns? That strikes me as OK. Unless he has lots of upgraded giants running around, of course.
 
Yeah, I will when it isn't 2:30 in the AM. :lol: Most of it is on the team board already.


As for 12 adults...he started with 2. 4 cities means 4 monuments, so that is 4 more. So 6 spawned over 76 turns? That strikes me as OK. Unless he has lots of upgraded giants running around, of course.

I only had 2 huscarls but I easily had the cash to upgrade all of them to hill giants within 6 or so turns. Their economy especially with RoK seems to be a little too good.

Attached image from a quick game because I need to sleep. Oh forgot you're on dialup. I had 8 hill giants 5 cities 11 citizens 4 workers by turn 60ish with the ability to pump out a hill giant every other turn.
 

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Mostly because it was an arbitrary limit. They are still limited to one ring of worked tiles, lost all bonuses on improvements, and only get +1 :food: on water tiles. In addition to that, they take more food than normal per pop point... It was 2.25 last I saw any hard numbers, but it might have gone up.

So basically, it's still there, just slightly higher. Most cities will top out at 10-12 pop. Only an exceptional city will get much higher... Yggdrasil would do it.
 
Ok :)

FYI, I'm adding such a system for the Ngomele, using the DLL. They will start out with a pop cap and buildings, technologies and civics will be able to modify it :)
 
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