Jotnar - Giant Civ for Fall from Heaven. Download Here.

[Lemminkäinen]

Ok, time to get on with this. I'm going to try to make Jotnar work on latest Fall Further this weekend.

\o/ Yay! Happy times - can't wait!

 

[Arctic Circle]

Excellent.

But a question, why do they gain experience slower?

I thought the jotnar were already handicapped, by having limited numbers of military units. Seems like it would be rather weak to have them be levelling slower too.

I haven't played this yet, though. I would like to, hopefully you can get it compatible with the current patch soon.

Trust me, they -are- handicapped, but their units do make up for it. They have problems handling early rushes of multiple 10+ stacks, but when armageddon counter rises to 30+ they can mass-build orc arrowfodder and in late-game they have some of the most horrible units in the game.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Progress report, most things seems to be working with the latest FF version. Have even started on change requests.

For example the Thrall Militia 1/2 warriors with +50 city defence now also can be sacrificed to hurry production of buildings with 2 hammers (they cost 10 to build).

Will also look at a solution to the 'jotnar hill giant' vs 'standard hill giant' issues. I will maybe do some more invasive changes to standard giants.

Also a event that anyone can get that gives the magic item 'sling of david' or similar, that gives +30% vs giants. And a giantslayer promotion that can be used by the FF team, I read in the old descriptions that Soilders of Kilmorph was intended to have the Giantslaying promotion. It will give +20 or +30% vs giants.

We'll see, I'm starting with the red stuff in this thread.

 

[Arctic Circle]

this is a misspost

 

[cIV_khanh93]

this is a misspost

you meana doublepost? Also, does this mean we have to keep waiting?

 

[WarKirby]

Trust me, they -are- handicapped, but their units do make up for it. They have problems handling early rushes of multiple 10+ stacks, but when armageddon counter rises to 30+ they can mass-build orc arrowfodder and in late-game they have some of the most horrible units in the game.

Why do they have a unit tied to the AC?

I turn the AC off in quite a few of my games. Unless I'm going for epic good/evil battles, I don't really like the world going to hell around me. And that blight gets mighty annoying when the AI just razes cities without a care.

Also, those thrall militia sound pitiful. Even with 50% city defence, that still makes them weaker than normal warriors.

I look forward to playing this, but it's sounding like a militarily crippled civ, to me.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Also, those thrall militia sound pitiful. Even with 50% city defence, that still makes them weaker than normal warriors.

Warrior 3/3
Thrall Militia 1/2

Thrall Militia defending city against warrior is 3 vs 3 (2 + 50%).

They exist for early defence. Not expansion. Often also, Jotnar can build their new cities inside their own cultural borders.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Why do they have a unit tied to the AC?
I turn the AC off in quite a few of my games. Unless I'm going for epic good/evil battles, I don't really like the world going to hell around me. And that blight gets mighty annoying when the AI just razes cities without a care.

True, but there are many other units tied to AC, dragons and end-game units. The mithril golem etc.

Perhaps time and development have passed me by, if desired I could remove the armageddon counter pre-requisite and add instaed some technology. Any suggestions?

 

[WarKirby]

Warrior 3/3
Thrall Militia 1/2

Thrall Militia defending city against warrior is 3 vs 3 (2 + 50%).

They exist for early defence. Not expansion. Often also, Jotnar can build their new cities inside their own cultural borders.

Yes, but warrior 3/3 +25% city defence
Other civ's warriors are better at defending your cities, than these thralls.

True, but there are many other units tied to AC, dragons and end-game units. The mithril golem etc.

Perhaps time and development have passed me by, if desired I could remove the armageddon counter pre-requisite and add instaed some technology. Any suggestions?

And think of what effect those units have on the game?
zero.
They're almost always only built when you're already winning/have already effectively won, because they come so late. If you're fighting a losing war, and you'd actually NEED such units, you'll never be able to research the tech in time anyway.

Having a base military unit require the AC, is pretty odd unless it's a demon. Orcs are all over the world before Armageddon comes into it at all.

I think a tech requirement could be good. Or maybe the ability to hire them at goblin forts and such. Perhaps both of those.

But generall, the Armageddon Counter represents hell creeeping into the world, and any units tied to it which aren't either from hell, or designed to oppose it, is a pretty strange thing, I think.
I don't believe there's anything demonic about orcs/trolls, so some other, non-ac related way of getting them would be best.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Yes, but warrior 3/3 +25% city defence
Other civ's warriors are better at defending your cities, than these thralls.

True. But Thrall Militia are not really organised warriors in the same way as the 'standard warrior', you can also look at the Jotnar 'scout' (The Wild Troll) that is a 4/3 unit with regeneration. I'm sure it will be fine. Also Thralls have a lower production cost, -and- can be sacrificed to Hurry construction (20% of their production cost).

Thralls therefore is not only combat units, but also a way to pool production to counter some of the effect that you will have many small cities and not few big ones, since I've seen a real problem in being able to compete and build for example wonders.

I have seven size 8 cities, but I can build a certain wonder in 22 turns. My wife build the same wonder in her biggest city in 9 turns. While I can't beat her even with a zillion Thralls, this helps.

Jotnar is different, but not unbalanced in the wrong way. For example if you are really lucky and stumble on some gold early, perhaps you can overwhelm your neighbour with a rush of Trolls. Sadly the big problem is you really can't afford to take risks with your units. Its a little like you have to preserve the Adventurers playing Grigori.

I think a tech requirement could be good. Or maybe the ability to hire them at goblin forts and such. Perhaps both of those.

I am thinking perhaps Bronze Working and Currency. They have to throw some coins at the Orcs to make them sign up? Is Military Strategy instaed of Currency to much?

If you choose the evil leader Uxol, he is Barbarian and Arcane. Then you can. Uxol also have a unique unit (or rather an Evil Jotnar civ have), the Thrall Cultist. Fanatical humans that are worshipping their Jotnar masters as gods, or at least divine.

 

[Tarquelne]

But generall, the Armageddon Counter represents hell creeeping into the world, and any units tied to it which aren't either from hell, or designed to oppose it, is a pretty strange thing, I think.

Aren't they just an adaptation? As the AC goes up "Jotnar spawning" goes down and they become desperate enough to take on the orcs, ogres, etc. (I'm assuming that's still planned,)

I think python can check for the activation of a game option. So if AC is off the O-units could be made available another way. (OTOH, maybe they wouldn't be needed.) Not necessarily bad that they're made available other ways, too. But so far as I know the basic rationale for them is fine.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Aren't they just an adaptation? As the AC goes up "Jotnar spawning" goes down and they become desperate enough to take on the orcs, ogres, etc. (I'm assuming that's still planned,)

I think python can check for the activation of a game option. So if AC is off the O-units could be made available another way. (OTOH, maybe they wouldn't be needed.) Not necessarily bad that they're made available other ways, too. But so far as I know the basic rationale for them is fine.

Among my priorities, this is a low one, so if I can make it work < 30 minutes it sounds great. Otherwise I will go with Tech requirements.

Jotnar spawning drastically decreases as armageddon counter rises, it is tested. However it might not be noticible depending on how much one sprawls cities. With 40 cities of size 8, there will be quite a lot new Jotnar regardless of Armageddon counter. This is however a mathematical formula that can be adjusted after people actually played Jotnar as a part of FF and give feedback.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I like the AC prereq for the orcs. it's kinda cool to see the giants forced to fight alongside with them when they become desperate due to the AC rising and their births crumbling.

it's something unique and as such it's gonna be more fun than yet another tech prerech... it's the FFH way

 

[sylvain5477]

it's something unique and as such it's gonna be more fun than yet another tech prerech... it's the FFH way

Totally agreee with this.
Disabling the AC is a choice anyway, so anyone can play with it (FFH style).

 

[WarKirby]

Hiring them as mercenaries would be a fun way too.

I can see the argument that the jotnar would become more desperate as the AC rises. but they would also become desperate when a huge army rolls into their territory. Or when orthus shows up at a barely guarded city. If "desperation" is the prereq, why can't they hire mercenaries then too?

Tying a non-divine unit to the Armageddon counter, just doesn't make sense. Mercenaries have uses at all times. not just for desperate circumstances, but also when you need a little extra support in a war, etc.

Orcs are already out there. See the Clan of Embers, or the Entire Orcish Savages barbarian faction. If you wanted to hire them as mercenaries, you could do so. I'd imagine they don't much know, or care about armageddon. Or anything beyond having a full belly and something to kill.

I'd much rather have a boring old tech prereq, than an AC requirement. And especially not an AC requirement of 30. That's when the blight hits. it's something you avoid at all costs.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

and when the blight hits, with the Jotnar you get a new fodder unit to make up for it. it's something the other races don't get, which is what makes it good

 

[WarKirby]

and when the blight hits, with the Jotnar you get a new fodder unit to make up for it. it's something the other races don't get, which is what makes it good

But what do they have in the meantime?

Their units seem to be limited in both quantity, and experience.
Do they have enough military options to be competitive without the mercenaries? How can they stand up to 100-unit megastacks? What do they have to counter big invasions and such?

 

[Tarquelne]

I can see the argument that the jotnar would become more desperate as the AC rises. but they would also become desperate when a huge army rolls into their territory.

There's a difference between the between a merging of the world with hell - made undeniable by a worldwide Blight - leading to a twilight of the race, and a huge army. No, really. Just because you can rightly apply the label "desperation" to either result doesn't mean the civ will respond in the same way.

Or when orthus shows up at a barely guarded city. If "desperation" is the prereq, why can't they hire mercenaries then too?

So: The answer would be that a rising AC sets of a bunch of changes in Jotnar society, the willingness to take on the (possibly resurgent) Orcs being one result.

That isn't the way it *has* to be, of course. But having AC count be the sole pre-req doesn't really pose a problem to the civ background or logic. That's an awfully poor route to go when arguing for a change anyway: Gameplay or balance reasons are much more to the point. Rationalizations are too open.

And especially not an AC requirement of 30. That's when the blight hits. it's something you avoid at all costs.

And yet sometimes it happens anyway. For the Jotnar it'll mean Giant "spawning" gets that much lower. If only there was something they could do about the chronic giantpower shortage...

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I think the fodder should stay tied to AC. They may not have a large army, but they DO have a very powerful army, especially considering they get stronger as they age. Allowing them to train the fodder units at all times, especially seeing as they don't have to produce their regular units, would allow them to steamroll everyone... not something that fits with the idea you've laid out.

However, I COULD see Uxol hiring them instead of goblins at the barb camps, would be pretty cool. Shouldn't be hard to change either.

 

[Arctic Circle]

I had a major meltdown, sitting late and tweaking something I'm causing a windows error.. that I cannot trace whatever I do. So I have to back down, and put in my recent changes slowly.. testing to see what it is that is the problem. A favorite is something in my changed python. This is what you get poking at the code without backup and when you are too tired to see straight. This is shameful for someone that actually calls himself an IT-professional.

However, the result is that I will most likely not do much more this coming week and weekend but making the whole thing work again. My goal is present a package for testing by the FF team EOW. And most likely I will not have time to deal with the Orc Conscript issue.