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July Patch - Upcoming Changelog Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Hey all,

    And we're back! Kinda. Sorry for the delay, things have been crazy lately. Anyways, after a few days of pouring over your many excellent discussions, and after a few tests of my own, I feel we're getting close to a set of solid balance changes. Here's my WIP changelog, pending some additional tests and tweaks, as well as your feedback. I tried to capture the 'essence' of the changes mentioned around the forum, but please note that not every idea for feedback was included, though all were reviewed. Consider this a starting point for a consolidated discussion from this point until the next patch.

    Code:
    Balance
        Difficulty:
            All difficulties now gain +2 happiness base, removed +2 happiness from tradition palace bonus
           
        Happiness
            Removed specialist unhappy prevention cap
            Need divisors now /50 across the board (were /25)
            Tech modifier now 100 (was 75)
        Growth:
            Function (existing values included in /* brackets */):
                int iBaseThreshold = /*15*/ GC.getBASE_CITY_GROWTH_THRESHOLD();
                int iExtraPopThreshold = int((iPopulation-1) * /*12*/ GC.getCITY_GROWTH_MULTIPLIER());
                iBaseThreshold += iExtraPopThreshold;
                iExtraPopThreshold = (int) pow(double(iPopulation-1), (double) /*2.22*/ GC.getCITY_GROWTH_EXPONENT());
            New values:
                20/13/2.3
            Plot culture cost up as well (uses same formula)
                was 16 multiplier/1.35 exponent, now 20 multiplier/1.40 exponent
        iThreshold = iBaseThreshold + iExtraPopThreshold;
        Buildings:
            Removed base yields from Hospital, Workshop, Grocer
            Workshop now +1 production per 10 citizens
            Grocer now +1 food per 5 citizens
            Hospital now +1 food per 10 citizens
            Workshop loses 1 free urbanization unhappiness
            Library gains 1 free urbanization unhappiness
            Factory urbanization bonus reduced to 1 (was 2)
            Internal TR bonuses on Market/Workshop/Stockyard/Factory changed:
                Now grant a flat bonus to each route yield type:
                    Market: ITR gain +2 food
                    Workshop: ITR gain +2 production
                    Stockyard: ITR gain +4 food
                    Factory: ITR gain +4 production
            Grocer provides +1 happiness
        Civs
            Venice
                UU: can now found Colonia cities instead of special Colonia towns (Colonia town removed)
                    Colonia start with 3 pop and 3 extra tiles, as well as a market and a monument
                    Venice can have max 3 colonia at one time
                Piazza: gains +5 flat supply
                Arsenale: gains +5 flat supply
            Ethiopia:
                UA: removed +1 faith on SR
                UB: culture mod now 25% (was 33%), faith yield now +2 (was +3)
            Celts:
                Epona pantheon: now +10 science/culture/gold (was science/culture/food)
            Arabia:
                UB: now +3 gold (was +4)
            Germany:
                UB: now +4%p per CS TR (was +3%)
                UA: now +2c from CS ally (was +2s/+2c/+2GAP), +2s from CS friend (was +1s/+1GAP/+1c)
            China
                UA - now +1 gold and +1 food for UA (was culture and food), reduces by 50% at era change
            India:
                UB: base yields now +3p/+3f (was +2/+4)
                    Oasis yield now +2p (was +2f)
                    Lake yield now +2p (was +2f)
                    Farm Yield now +1f/+1p (was +2f)
        Policies
            Artistry
                Refinement: Removed +2 specialist no unhappy
            Authority
                Tribute: Food on border expand now Production
            Progress
                Expertise: removed food on building construction, bumpbed culture to +12 (was +10)
                Finisher: now +25g from citizen birth (was +15)
            Statecraft
                Trade Confederacy: added 'Trade Routes to Civilizations with more Techs and/or Policies than you generate an additional +3 Science and/or Culture'
            Fealty
                Nobility: food from Castle now Gold
                Burghers: removed TR to other civs' bonus; added '1 specialist in each city no longer produces unhappiness
    
        Specialists:
            Merchants now +4g base (was +3)
       
        Trade
            Divisor for Culture/Science delta for trade routes now 125 (Was 120) - less c/s from international routes
       
        Units:
            Adjusted CS for infantry line (old/new)
                Fusilier (35/38)
                Mehal Sefari (40/42)
                Foreign Legion (52/55)
                Rifleman (45/48)
                Paratrooper (40/42)
                Infantry (55/60)
                Guerilla (57/62)
                Mercenaries (60/62)
                Marine (60/65)
                Mech Infantry (70/75)
                XCOM (70/75)
    G
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
    saamohod, tu_79, glider1 and 10 others like this.
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I'm guessing the Paratrooper 40:c5strength: ==> 12:c5strength: is a typo?

    Does Caravansary keep its +1:c5gold: to merchants, now that merchants have a base yield of 4:c5gold:?

    Man, workshops and hospitals getting Slammed this patch. You need a population of 50:c5citizen: in a city to match current production/food. Weird that Hospitals have a lower :c5food:/:c5citizen: yield than Grocers, an earlier building
     
    saamohod, mikes61293, vyyt and 6 others like this.
  3. arthurF

    arthurF Chieftain

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    Could someone elaborate on this change for me?


    Happiness
    Removed specialist unhappy prevention cap
    Need divisors now /50 across the board (were /25)
    Tech modifier now 100 (was 75)
     
  4. arthurF

    arthurF Chieftain

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    Yeah...I think maybe there should be slight nerf to this nerf?
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    My notes within the quote

     
    vyyt, Kim Dong Un and CrazyG like this.
  6. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Chieftain

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    The China nerf is a bit much. Losing the culture entirely will significantly change the feel of China - it goes from a culture civ to a growth and gold civ.

    It also seems weird that fealty will get a happiness free specialist but not artistry, which focuses on specialists.

    Is it now the case that a city can have more specialists than happiness but will simply have excess unhappiness as well?

    I also suspect that the loss of food from authority's tribute will be a significant nerf to authority. The ability to settle a city and get 2 population within 2 turns was useful. The production will be good later but it looks like tile acquisition is being slowed, which is another nerf.

    I also appreciate the move to scaling yields but at this scaling, I would only build them in my capital and only maybe.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  7. Tantro

    Tantro Chieftain

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    Removing food from progress/expertise is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I'll put thoughts in the quote, but I want to say this first for the discussion. We do have the option to nerf tradition, rather than buff progress or authority. The +2 culture on baths/gardens and the +1 science on herbalists get complaints on occasion. In particular, the Hanging Gardens is a crazy wonder with that +2 culture. Tradition could lose some food since everyone else did, and the border growth could afford to be slower in the mid-late game.

    1) You can work as many specialists as you want, even if it makes a city unhappy.
    2) Your cities will get less unhappiness from boredom, illiteracy, distress, and poverty.
    3) Researching technologies will cause a bit more unhappiness than before.

    #2's effect should be bigger than #3's so overall expect happiness to be easier.
     
    wobuffet likes this.
  9. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I don't like the majority of the changes - some of these were mentioned once by one guy here or there and they're suddenly implemented. I didn't respond in that thread much and I regret it, how it's shaping up doesn't seem too good.

    I agree with many CrazyG points, but:

    Food removal + Growth change will be too much for sure. Either one or the other would be fine, I think, but I'd prefer if none of that happened. I never feel my cities are too big compared to what they should be, ensuring artificial scarcity of Food might actually make the yield less valuable as a result - if I have to get a billion Food to grow from 11 to 12, I just won't bother - Food will be even worse.
    Border growth change seems too much, it's already hard to grow if you're not one of the certain civs. It'd make new-Acropolis better but that's not enough. I see no point to this change.
    The buildings that lost yields and will get yields per pop seem crappy (excluding Grocer I guess). Workshop especially has turned from a good, but certainly not OP building intogarbage only to be built to allow further buildings of the line. Just removing the free specialist would've been more than enough, this is far too much.

    Germany's change seems weird. The UA is already crappy and not much compared to other similar ones, and it gets a very heavy nerf while Hanse gets a boost. I don't understand it - the civ is definitely not OP like France where UA alone is better than entirety of some civs kits, the Production from conquest alone is basically super early super Hanse which once you get going is very easy to keep permanent - and you get Culture and GWAMs and a great combat bonus, too. I thought Germany was just ok myself.
    China got hit too hard, it might've been OP but I think if that goes through, it needs Papermaker to carry the civ more.
    Venice losing Colonia GPUI might not be worth it considering how crappy those puppets seem. I've expected far more than two buildings, the difference of Colonia>Town might be more yields than the settled city is worth - why not give them both?
    Fealty got more of a buff than Statecraft which is weird, though both need it. Why does Fealty get the specialist unhappiness removal bonus? It doesn't fit, give it something else.
    India might be getting too much, I totally see myself going on a wide warmongering spree with this kit.

    Unhappiness divisor going up seems okay, but tech penalty growing doesn't.
     
    civplayer33 likes this.
  10. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Overall, this looks good.

    Could you pls explain, what the growth change will do? Harder/easier for early/late?

    Removing all that food from progress and authority but tradition didn't get touched seems wrong to me. That +30% growth is able to give much more yields than the other trees are able to. Instead +30% growth something like +10% food and more flat food in capital is better.

    I think the workshop should get atleast 1 hammer per 5 population. Grocery back to a flat value (+2?) and the hospital +1 food per 5 population. Hospital is a very late building and food in that state of the game needs to be noticeable.

    I wouldn't split the ITR yields, or give the bonus to already good buildings. The caravansery/custom house line could get some love, ideally for this buff.

    Absolutely no understanding why Germany got nerfedd again. There were fine, I was even hoping for a small buff, but after reducing the yields from UA by 33%, additional 50% is gone?

    For India Iam not sure. I don't think it's that what India really needs. The amount of farms you work in the late game is getting smaller and smaller, and with it the production bonus diminishes. Lakes and oases are too random to be counted. I was hoping atleast for a change from growth bonus to food bonus by followers. (the side effect would be, that India wouldn't be completely immun to any growth penalty by unhappiness)

    For me this makes absolutely sense. Warmongers get back their tree, cause free specialists are the only way to work specialists in puppets without completely cutting the growth. I could imagine the positive happiness by great works in Artistry could be removed and instead Guilds get a free specialist, additional to the happiness, making it more reliable.

    That Statecraft buff is useless. Everyone will send his trade units to CS to get the +1 Influence. How are additional yields for trade routes with other civs helpful?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  11. Viralvoid

    Viralvoid Chieftain

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    What is stockyard?
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    PSA: stockyard = Agribusiness

    Re: the civ buffs/nerfs:
    India
    +2:c5production: to lakes instead of the +2:c5food: that a normal aqueduct gives seems unnecessary. Why change from base building values?
    The 2:c5production:4:c5food:==> 3:c5production:3:c5food: base yields and 2:c5food:==>1:c5production:1:c5food: on farms seems like enough of a buff.
    With the addition of more yields per :c5citizen: scaling buildings, India is going to feel more rewarding already.

    Ethiopia:
    I don’t think nerfing Stele to 2:c5faith: is necessary yet. With the removal of :c5faith:on SRs and less border growth, that’s enough of a tweak that I feel nerfing base yields is over-correcting.

    China:
    I really feel like this will fundamentally change this civ, and it will feel much weaker. I would have started with increasing the yield degradation alone. China. CHINA. with only 2 more :c5culture:culture on it than a base civ, and instead going for :c5gold:gold? Chinese culture had nothing but contempt for mercantile ventures; their lack of innovation/motivation to develop financial instruments and strong trade relationships is one of the most resilient theories for why they fell behind other nations in recent history.

    Germany:
    Honestly I don’t even know why this civ was even mentioned in any of the discussions. They were fine before. Jarula’s ranting about biergartens notwithstanding, I didn’t see much basis for this nerf in the discussions people were having.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  13. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    "Removed base yields from Hospital, Workshop, Grocer"

    Hey G, if you dare to do that, I'll make a fix in Change VP Options

    :devil:
     
  14. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    The more I think about this change, the more I dislike it, this isnt a buff, its only shifting yields around.
    Why should you significantly remove food from a civ, which is focused on food? With the removal of food, you automatically weaken the other part of the UA, the growth bonus from population and with less population also the religious pressure.
    India still loses a lot of its UA, if I slow down or stop growth. My people will leave the farms and with it, the extra hammer isnt worked. If I want that extra hammer, I have to work food, even if I really didnt want to grow. And with stopping growth, also the growth bonus is gone.
    If I want hammers on farms, I also could pick Imperialismn. If I want big growth modifiers, I try to catch more happiness (10 net happiness in a city has the same worth as 25 population from a city of India).
    Except getting a pantheon on turn 1, theres nothing really unique with India, nor can it really get a unique advantage by its population.
     
  15. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    Totally agree with the specialist unhappy cap removal. Interested to see how the need divisors and tech modifier make happiness feel in the upcoming patch. Others seem to think it will make happiness more manageable overall and if that's the case then I think it's probably good (happiness feels a bit restrictive right now).

    I probably need a layman's explanation like others to understand the result of these changes :). But it sounds like maybe pop and plot growth are going to be a bit harder? Either way, I'm not sure I know enough to have a strong opinion on this.

    I also wonder if Workshop's base production got hit a bit hard here. Admittedly, I think the Workshop is a really good building currently so I would be fine with a slight nerf but maybe this is a bit harsh? I think I probably like the rest here though.

    Venice: I love it. I'm eager to see how this plays out. I'll probably try a Venice play through soon after the patch releases or will at least make sure Venice is an AI in my first game to see how the AI handles the new puppet settled cities. I think the increased unit cap could do wonders for Venice's survivability. Also, I totally disagree with anyone who is saying the settled puppets are a poor consolation prize for the old GPI. Settling those nearby puppets gets you easily protected and defensible land that likely contains your lux monopoly and allows you to purposely settle near strategic resources you might otherwise lack. Strategically it is much stronger than a tile improvement. I would venture that the puppet will also become more rewarding yield-wise quickly as well.

    Ethiopia: I really like this change. I think AI Ethiopia will still found virtually every game but might not so consistently be a top dog and that's good. I'm tired of seeing the same civs at the top of the leader board every game.

    Celts/Arabia: minor stuff so I'm fine with it.

    Germany: I actually think this is overall a buff, or maybe neutral. The yields from CS alliances are obviously lower (+2C now, was +2C/S/GAP) but the yields from CS friends are only slightly worse (+2S now, was +1C/S/GAP). However, the Hanse's production % bonus is significantly stronger. It's maybe a nerf in a situation where Germany has tons of CS alliances (which is maybe where Germany is already running away) while it's a buff to Germany in games where he hasn't yet secured those alliances. Overall maybe it makes Germany more consistent but less apt to run away?

    China: I kinda thought you might just change China to only keep 33% or 50% of yields at era change. This is probably a bigger nerf than I expected. Is there more of a philosophical reason you wanted China to become a gold/food based civ rather than culture/food?

    India: I think India will likely be a much stronger civ which I think is OK because he was on the weaker side before.

    Artistry could have maybe kept '+1 specialist have no unhappiness'? I think I'm probably fine with the rest and will have to see how it feels to play before I would try to argue that the other changes are too much/too little.

    I'm happy with these. It will be interesting to see if the melee line can be effective meatshields with these bumps to CS. I definitely agree that in the mid-late game the melee line is currently not very effective- they typically get picked off without being able to really control the front and aren't often that great at holding ground. These bumps to CS will help them take a beating better but also punish any ranged or mounted units that expose themselves.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  16. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    I usually disable Venice
    Not anymore after July_Patch
     
  17. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    Yeah what is even left on that policy now? +1 happiness per 3 great works in a city? That is pretty negligible unless you are playing super tall, 3 cities or less.

    I think the "in a city" requirement should be dropped. Having to shuffle GW around to unhappy cities messes with theming bonuses and is tediously boring. Is it possible to make it "+1 empire happiness per X owned GWs"?
     
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  18. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Chieftain

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    I don't mind most of the changes tho some are a little too harsh but i was really looking forward to poland social policy buff to bring it in bar or even a little closer to vanilla poland and i'm genuinely disappointed.
     
  19. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    Yeah this shuffle is not really good for statecraft. If you are behind on science and culture, you are probably still fighting for CS influence which is much more important than a slight rubber band mechanic.

    If you want to encourage trade diversity for statecraft, I would lean towards enabling/rewarding tourism. Some ideas:
    Double the culture/science bonus from influence level. So instead of "+4 science/culture/gold due to culture influence over them" at Popular, it would be +8.

    Additional trade routes to the same civ increases instant tourism by 8% per additional trade route.
    For example, 1st trade route to other civ gets you 100 tourism instant yield on completion. If you send another trade route to same civ, the instant yields are now 108 for a total of 216. So you can "focus" your tourism output a little bit more actively
     
  20. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Chieftain

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    I'm actually really excited about most of the changes, save for the following which have given me pause:

    - The changes to the Workshop, Hospital, and Grocer seem overdone. The Grocer change works, but making the :c5production: and :c5food: on Workshops and Hospitals 1 per 10 :c5citizen: is extreme. Outside my capital I NEVER get a city to 30+ :c5citizen: so in most cities these buildings would only be providing 1-2 :c5production: / :c5food:. That's essentially nothing, especially in the mid/late game when these buildings become available. 1 per 5 or 1 per 4 :c5citizen: would make more sense, especially for the Workshop which is already teetering on the edge of niche.

    - The nerf to Ethiopia Steles looks fair, but why also take the :c5faith: from SRs? This was an interesting bonus and I feel like making both changes is too much.

    - The loss of :c5culture: from China's UA makes sense as it was still one of the best UAs in the entire game (culture is king!), but replacing it with :c5gold: feels wrong on multiple levels. On one hand it is a weak/negligible yield and on the other hand it clashes with the historic theme of the UA. I agree that maybe :c5culture: needed to go, but how about replacing it with :c5production: instead?

    - I'm not really sure why Germany's UA was nerfed so much? It's already been nerfed several times through the development of VP, and at this point the yields would feel negligible unless they scaled with era. Also, why make it so that Allies and Friends give different yields? If it absolutely HAD to be changed, why not drop the :c5culture: entirely and do +2 :c5science: & :c5gold: per Ally and +1 :c5science: & :c5gold: per Friend, scaling with era?
     
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