Jumping on the bandwagon: Ask a Homosexual

[C~G]

That the desire for a family is greater than the desire to engage in that type of behavior.

What you mean by "that type of behaviour".

One of the most strongest natural urges is to feel accepted and loved as you are including your need for intimacy and sexual contact with other people. You cannot possible deny that possibility from gays and thinking that their sexuality is more perverted than yours when most straigth guys enjoy looking of porn.

We are not animals, doomed and trapped by our urges. We have minds. And we can control ourselves. Or at least we should control our choices in life and weigh them against one another. My opinion only.

Apparently you couldn't control your own natural urges and you ended up with wife and kids.

Why to deny the same possibility of following their natural urges from anyone even if they aren't exactly the same as yours if they don't hurt anyone outsider?

And really...the system army has shouldn't be the system society and world in general should have since if some system is perverted that is. Still it might work for that particular niche and people when entering it acknowledge it even though they can try to change the system. When you are born and raised in the world and end up being homosexual, you haven't chosen that status. Society has to offer some sort of solution to all people while army doesn't.

Society has a life but army has only a mission.

 

[toh6wy]

croxis, has your own image (reflection in mirror, photo, etc) ever turned you on?

 

[MobBoss]

You cannot possible deny that possibility from gays and thinking that their sexuality is more perverted than yours when most straigth guys enjoy looking of porn.

I place both within the bounds of sexual immorality.

Apparently you couldn't control your own natural urges and you ended up with wife and kids.

But I readily accept that doing so was my choice and that I certainly had a choice in the matter. I wasnt forced into anything there.

Why to deny the same possibility of following their natural urges from anyone even if they aren't exactly the same as yours if they don't hurt anyone outsider?

How do you know peoples actions dont hurt other people merely because you cant see it?

When you are born and raised in the world and end up being homosexual, you haven't chosen that status.

We disagree on this. I happen to believe for many that it is a choice.

Society has to offer some sort of solution to all people while army doesn't.

Who says? I think that is up to society.....and certain societies have different rules.

 

[croxis]

The things you have listed here fail to inspire or convince me that you feel second class.

This is my challenge to EVERYONE here. It doesn't matter what your views on this topic are, I challenge you to do this. It will only take five minutes of your time.

It is very often difficult to physically put ones self into other peoples shoes. Sans a couple of TV shows which explored this issue, most whites don't put on makeup and wigs to be black for a day. Except for this.

Find a same sex friend who is willing to participate. Go to a mall or in town. Pick a direction and walk, holding hands, for five minutes and pay attention to peoples' reactions around you. If you are too nervous about it get your significant other or another friend to do the same thing.

Can you even get the courage to try? Why is it so hard? Can you do it for the whole five minutes without letting go?

Why is it so hard?

 

[El_Machinae]

It's actually very effective to get two friends to do it, and watch people while trailing your friends. As well, for the truely adventurous, try it with two females instead of two males.

 

[C~G]

I place both within the bounds of sexual immorality.

Yeah, there lies the problem.

But I readily accept that doing so was my choice and that I certainly had a choice in the matter. I wasnt forced into anything there.

Of course you we're forced or otherwise face the things you described. Second option is to leave the community which when entering you accepted it's rules to command you.

But it's pretty hard for person to leave his community if all communities are against such thing.

How do you know peoples actions dont hurt other people merely because you cant see it?

Well, if something hurts you or society, it's you duty to provide evidence it does, not the other way around.
Currently I see that such behaviour only can cause harm because the society doesn't accept homosexuality as normal behaviour but as freaking exception leaving people under the stigma of being second class citizen towards those that are "normal".

We disagree on this. I happen to believe for many that it is a choice.

Actually we don't so much.

I believe quite many people are normally bisexuals and for them homosexuality is a choice but we don't know the amount of these people and since there exists such people that cannot possible example sleep with women why they are denied the possibility of intimacy and the status of being equal citizen?

You can say the world isn't fair and I can say if something is broken you have to fix it. Of course for you it's apparently not broken but if you would be gay...thinks might look a different.

Who says? I think that is up to society.....and certain societies have different rules.

You remember the freedom thing and pursuit of happiness stuff, something like that.
It's rather strange if non-american have to teach true american what it is all about.

If the society doesn't offer solutions to all people indeed we should raise higher than our natural urge to control other people and allow them to be equal to us by controlling the society and leading it to trail that leads towards freedom (for all). Don't ya think?

 

[croxis]

I leave for one year and I get replaced by Mobboss and El_Machinae I love this place (no joke). It's a good addition to the community's collective voice.

WELCOME BACK!

ok croxis, here's a personal question since I know it depends on the invidual. How do you feel that your own movement towards acceptance is directly tied to the rest of the "queer" community such as post-surgery transexuals or what have you? Does your desire for social freedom and it coming from a sexual discrimination make you feel camraderie which such other members of the umbrella-queer community or do you wish you wouldn't be so closely associated so that you wouldn't be tied to a harder to accept (from the mainstream) group like transexuals?

Transexuals have it even worse that homosexuals do. Despite often being grouped together I really consider their issues separate (still important however) than that of sexual orientation. Homosexuality scratches on gender roles, but transsexuality flat out challenges it. That doesn't answer your question.

I don't really affiliate myself with the queer community. I feel very out of place. I think not being able to dance is a factor. I've developed a few friends who are gay, and we somehow met for that reason (such as dating at one point), but it isn't the defining factor of my friendship.

My ex and I were bored one night so we watched the auditions for American Idol on TV. There was one... contestant who identified himself as male but was so effeminate I wanted to stick a plastic spork in my eye. He was rejected because he couln't sing (not that those on the show can sing anyways), and was then wailing about discrimination and yadda yadda. I said, "well, gay rights just lost abot 5 years of ground."

I don't think that answered your question either. I tried.

No one awnswered my question!

What was it?

Croxis, has being openly homosexual affected your choice of church and/or your relationship with God? For example, I belong to a Religious Science church, and we have a slightly higher-than-average percentage of gay members. We are very accepting, and have many members who have been "cast out" of other churches.

I was never part of any church really. I call myself atheist or agnostic but neither of those is accurate. (Side tangent, pm if you would like, I am assuming the Religious science church is not Scientology? Related? Am I crazy?) I do believe that we are all looking at the same thing and that people of different faiths are just seeing things in different ways/finding their own paths to God(s). I do have a form of spirituality and I am quite aware that I am probably very off the mark of what "It" really is.

croxis: What homosexual "heroes" do you look up to, if any?

I nominate this question for having the greatest potential for hilarity!

LOL. AS long as they are in tights

Honestly. I don't have any. There really ISN'T any. I have admiration for those who put in blood sweat and tears for gay rights, but those who I identify as my heros are for reasons that have nothing to do with their sexuality.

But it does allow those who care about you know that they can help you, instead of simply assuming

I see where you are going, though. Self empowerment is hugely important for success regardless of one's circumstance, and seeing oneself as a victim creates victimhood. However one can believe he is just as capable and important and destined for success and still acknoweldge he is a second class citizen. Such recognition can be empowering too if used as a productive tool. I love the old positive thinking, pull-myslf-from-me-bootstraps, but lets remember we can give one another a loving hand as well, in numorous different mediums.

Bingo. I'm going further and doing more with my life than many other people I know. If I was any less of a person or my circumstances in specific situations were only slightly different, I would be dead. I've been that low and that close to giving up. So the I-am-mightlyer-than-tho not going to answer the question on deconstruction of privileged attitude makes me go "whope de do, good for you, so what."

I have to get back to work, I'll answer the rest when I get back.

 

[MobBoss]

This is my challenge to EVERYONE here. It doesn't matter what your views on this topic are, I challenge you to do this. It will only take five minutes of your time.

It is very often difficult to physically put ones self into other peoples shoes. Sans a couple of TV shows which explored this issue, most whites don't put on makeup and wigs to be black for a day. Except for this.

Find a same sex friend who is willing to participate. Go to a mall or in town. Pick a direction and walk, holding hands, for five minutes and pay attention to peoples' reactions around you. If you are too nervous about it get your significant other or another friend to do the same thing.

But I doubt most of you have the guts to even try, much less go for five minutes without letting go.

As I see people where I live do this almost every day, I am unsure that I would actually notice anything. Especially up in Seattle. Heck, I already get looks because I am a big, mean looking white guy. People already litterally cross the road to avoid me. I am willing to do this...however, trying to find an accomplice could be another matter....

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I have run into several gay people or couples lately, in this job and my last. It barely registers. Does it matter to you that much how complete strangers look at you? I got some pretty nasty looks as a missionary, meant nothing to me.

As far as the Army, I don't think the system is "perveted". it is perfectly effective for what it does, but for that very reason can't apply to anything else. After all, the ultimate purpose is to get perfectly rational people to put themselves in harm's way. It may be necessary but it requires the suppression or sublimation of several important instincts.

 

[MobBoss]

Of course you we're forced

Sorry, C~G, but thats just flat out wrong. I wasnt forced to do anything I didnt want to do. All you are doing here is classic blame shifting...if one is 'forced' to do a thing, then one is removed from all responsibility for that choice.

You remember the freedom thing and pursuit of happiness stuff, something like that.
It's rather strange if non-american have to teach true american what it is all about.

Actually, I think your idea of it is warped. Remember, its 'pursuit' of happiness....not a 'gurantee' of happiness. Society is not responsible for you being ultimately happy.

So, no, its not strange that a non-american doesnt quite get it. Thats ok, I forgive you.

 

[Veritass]

I am assuming the Religious science church is not Scientology? Related?

[TANGENT]
Religious Science is not at all related to or similar to Scientology. It is not currently related to, but shares some of the original teaching and philosophy, of Christian Science. It is a monist philosophy, and it therefore very inclusive. It is most closely aligned with such teachings as Unitarianism.

I won't go into any more, as I don't want to sidetrack the thread.
[/TANGENT]

 

[C~G]

Sorry, C~G, but thats just flat out wrong. I wasnt forced to do anything I didnt want to do. All you are doing here is classic blame shifting...if one is 'forced' to do a thing, then one is removed from all responsibility for that choice.

So if I point the gun to your head and tell you to kill someone, you aren't "forced" to do so since you still have choice to make?

Oh, well....

I guess the definition of "forced" for you is something like that of prison and something "negative". For me it can also mean something you choose to do but is "forced" by the conditions as the most optimal choice.

Actually, I think your idea of it is warped. Remember, its 'pursuit' of happiness....not a 'gurantee' of happiness. Society is not responsible for you being ultimately happy.

So, no, its not strange that a non-american doesnt quite get it. Thats ok, I forgive you.

I knew as conservative you would rally around that flag of "it doesn't mean guaranteed happiness".

Who never said it is guaranteed?
But here you are fighting your own system. When it comes to economical happiness, one could think that one can raise himself from the gutter and get rich through hard work.
But you are saying that someone whatever he does cannot get accepted unless he changes behaviour that is inherently his being. But apparently you think that gays are totally free to do this choice even if they would feel desperate about it. Of course you aren't "forcing" them to anything, just saying that you can be either unhappy or...even more unhappy which kind of puts indeed new twist to the "pursuit of happiness" term.

I think "freedom" doesn't mean man, wife, two children, nice house and SUV.
I think it means something for everyone in understandable boundaries. Don't see how gays get feel their freedom in society that doesn't appreciate them as equal citizens towards those of "ideal family citizens" especially since they cannot ever achieve the same as they aren't allowed to do so with each other.

 

[El_Machinae]

I am willing to do this...however, trying to find an accomplice could be another matter....

This is a bit offtopic, so a quick answer is all I need. If you try this experiment, could a bad-string of luck lose you your job? (An officer observing you, or something?)

Even so, I still recommend observing from while trailing, it's a very different perspective. People won't look if they can tell the couple is looking (so you have to be sneaky); they WILL look when others (not the couple) is looking.

 

[MobBoss]

This is a bit offtopic, so a quick answer is all I need. If you try this experiment, could a bad-string of luck lose you your job? (An officer observing you, or something?)

Even so, I still recommend observing from while trailing, it's a very different perspective. People won't look if they can tell the couple is looking (so you have to be sneaky); they WILL look when others (not the couple) is looking.

Good point. Perhaps I will forego that experiment in order to avoid, ah, situational compromise.

As for the observing while trailing you are also correct. Last Friday we experienced a wind storm with 70 mph gusts here in the NW. Power was out all over the place, so I took my wife out to eat lunch Friday afternoon..and the only place we could find with power was....Hooters. My wife had more fun watching other men watch the women! Funny stuff.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ergo, I may be attracted to women....it doesnt mean I have to act on that attraction, nor is it always a good idea to.

We are not animals, doomed and trapped by our urges. We have minds. And we can control ourselves. Or at least we should control our choices in life and weigh them against one another. My opinion only.

I suspect Croxis or your average homosexual doesn't act on every urge either.

 

[JollyRoger]

Good point. Perhaps I will forego that experiment in order to avoid, ah, situational compromise.

"Situational compromise" is just a fancy way of saying "being treated like a second class citizen."

 

[El_Machinae]

My wife had more fun watching other men watch the women! Funny stuff.

You know what I'm talking about, then!

 

[shadowdude]

What was your relationship with your parents while you were younger?

Did you like your mom or your dad more?

 

[Yeeek]

What was it?

My question is in my post, page 5!

 

[El_Machinae]

My question is in my post, page 5!

When bringing up a question or comment again, it's prudent to quote it.

Now edit your post and link to your question!