Jumpmasters 1B: Power is Knowledge (Vanilla, GOTM mod - Emperor - No research)

[nikof]

Okay, finally installed. Bit of a pain-didn't install cleanly on top of my existing GOTM package. Don't know why, but installed fresh from the cd with all updates and it works now.

I shadowed AlanH's game with moderate accuracy. His Wheel hut was deserted for me - glad you were playing, Alan! But I got Masonry from the northern hut, so my luck isn't all bad.

Dot map looks real nice. Definately agree on building northward towards Han first, maybe even trying to grab the two northern yellow dots as cities number 4 & 5 before competing the inner ring (city 3 is the green dot N N from KK).

Fully agree, I might even have been tempted to go for the northern yellow dots before the green by the wheat, but I will follow the advice of wiser heads. I guess we want 2 settler factories sooner because we have a lot of ground to fill. Big island, contact with other civs - sorry for doubting you, mad-bax!

Q1a: I'm very tempted to move the scout E onto the mountain, to get a look at Han territory. Han is polite, so this seems like a risk worth taking. However, I've been burned before by "provoking" other civs early on Emperor. Thoughts?

Q1b: Not sure I see the need to move Warrior2 back home. Han is polite, we have Warrior1, Ta-tu could make a barracks in 5 and warrior in another 2 if need be. I'm tempted to scout him north a bit more.

Q1c: Since I'm scouting near Han - it may be possible to do some mild blocking of Han settler units, just to slow him down a bit. But someone declared war on me in a recent game immediately after I did that. Is it a dire provocation, coincidence, or just not worth the effort?

Q2: Rocks? Okay. Do they do anything like block ships, or are they just a bonus?

Q3: Is naval movement different than vanilla? I can't keep track of the rule mods.

Comment: I've found the discussion of FP corruption and "disc placement (tm)" very helpful, hadn't quite picked this up from the War Academy. <thinks about how much more productive GOTM32 could have been...>
Thanks!

nikof
P=K!

 

[AlanH]

maybe even trying to grab the two northern yellow dots as cities number 4 & 5 before competing the inner ring (city 3 is the green dot N N from KK).

Agreed on early city order. Those are all high food sites with FP in their radius. If we can road the tile north from Karakorum to city 3 ASAP then settlers will only take 2 turns to reach the next two sites north of there. One road on the tile north of city 3 connects both those nrthern sites, and one more road on the furs brings us a lux.

I might even have been tempted to go for the northern yellow dots before the green by the wheat

Two issues here - food and speed. The green dot gets access to the 4 ftp wheat, soon to be 5 fpt. The yellow dots don't, so they will be at 2 ftp until irrigated. Settlers would take four turns to reach those yellow dots. A settler can reach the green dot in 2, and a worker can then add roads to put the yellow dots only two turns away from Karakorum. If you work out the total food production difference between the two options it's quite significant over the next 15 turns or so. [EDIT] Repeat the mantra: "Food is Power, and Power is Knowledge".

We're not threatened for space by the Han in those next turns, and they have a nearer source of furs and horses, so they are not going to come after ours. Settling the furs earlier won't get them hooked up earlier, in fact it may take longer. So there's no compelling reason to walk a long way to settle.

Q1a: Scouts aren't seen as a threat. I wouldn't worry about it. Priority for the scout (our only one at the moment) is to fill in the map as much as possible so that we have valuable map to trade when Map Making arrives. If the mountain move gets us a lot more visible tiles then go for it.

Q1b: You are probably right. I tend to try to slow the AI down whenever I get the chance, and this was one such opportunity. But I think you're right, there's little point in racing the Han warrior back to base. A single warrior won't go for us, and we will have a road between the two cities in another few turns anyway so our existing warrior can occupy whichever the warrior chooses to approach.

Q1c: Coincidence I should think. Blocking units seems not to be considered provocative. I don't think the AI has that level of intelligence. It just looks at what moves it can make now and makes one. If you block it will just move back again without realising what's happening. I'm not sure you have enough resources to do it, though, and you might end up just delaying our own progress on exploring.

Q2: Rocks are just a bonus. 1 spt, and maybe 1gpt IIRC. Check the Civilopedia. Don't bother with them until we can build a harbour, as it's still only 1 fpt and we have more powerful tiles.

Q3: Dunno. We'll have to check with m-b or Scout. Are you lurking?

Good luck, nikof...

 

[Karasu]

Just as Alan said -we should chase nearby food-rich locations with the highest priority.

We should also take the fist opportunity to build another couple workers, either in Karakorum or in another city.
If our target for the game is a military victory of some kind, we can start building warriors, archers or horsemen in any city that is not busy with settlers/workers or granaries/barracks.

Good luck from me too

 

[nikof]

Here we go.

Turn 0, 3000 BC:
AlanH left everything shipshape, no surprise there! We are at +8 gold with 20% lux.
My goals are to set up the settler factor, MM well, and keep exploring.
Mentally toy with MM ideas to get a faster growth or granary in KK, but can't improve on AlanH's plan.

IBT - Han Warrior heads west.

Turn 1, 2950
Warrior N.
Scout E to mountain in Han territory. Sees size 2 Beijing, on a river, with 2 furs (one roaded), a Warrior in city, a worker working.
F4 (should do this first...) - no new techs, Han and Korea both have a second city.
F1 - all's well.

IBT - Wu Ti politely disturbed by troop build-up, I apologize and bow as I back out of the room. Han Warrior South towards us, disappears into fog.

Turn 2, 2900
F4 - nothing of interest.
Warrior N.
Scout S, SW to fill in black spot since he may not pass that way again soon. He'll go North, West of Han borders after that, and may meet Warrior1 up North.
Ta-tu Worker completes road. Goes SE to mine for another useful square, after that he may work/road the square SW of KK, while other Worker heads N. Other option was to cross river, irrigate & road towards horses. But rivers slow us down right now, and since we're in REX mode we probably don't need horses for a little while yet. Comments welcome. (later edit - but rivers give gold, too...)
F1 - the land is strong.

Turn 3, 2850
F4 - nada
Warrior N to North coast. Will check NE just to see if there's a land bridge. Time-consuming and not too likely, but it's pretty important info IMHO.
Scout S, SW. Pretty furs abound.
Ta-tu will grow in one. Put governor on "emphasize production". NOTE - also checked that as default for new cities.
F1 - Mongolia, love it or leave it!

Turn 4, 2800
F4 - nada
Scout W, N
Tatu has grown to pop2. Ah, can't finish barracks next turn because 1s lost to corruption. Still, I want it faster and will sacrifice 1food to MM forest this turn only. (Breaks F=P rule).
KK - MM an i-FP to get one slower pop growth while Granary completes, and an extra gold.
F1 - Mongolia 'tis of thee.

IBT - Han warrior reappears N of our wheat square, as expected. Han still polite, not expecting any monkey business.
KK nice full Granary! -> Settler

Turn 5, 2750
F4 nada (I'm gonna keep writing this, because it makes me remember to check!)
Scout NN, Warrior NE - peninsula ends.
Return Ta-tu to 2f.
KK about to grow. MM from wheat to iFP, so get an extra gold and only waste 1f. This city may be a MM dream, but I can't squeeze any more shields from it usefully. Should get 8+10 from chop next turn, so can have 3-turn settler anyway.

IBT- Han respects borders, goes SE. Chop done.

Turn 6, 2710
F4-0
Warr SW, Scout NN to hill.
Ta-tu will have a Warrior in 5 (can hurry if need to), growth in 9.
KK - huh, governor must have not put new citizen on forest, only have 16s in bin. I think I can do Settler in 3, with 4 pop after, or settler in 2, with 3.5 pop after. Taking option B for faster expansion. That means I'm going to speed up the Warrior in TT to 3 turns too, with that Han lurking.
Set worker SW of KK to road, to have defense network, noting that there's a river between KK and next proposed city anyway.
F1-lux 30%, so we're only +7.

IBT-Han Warr W

Turn 7, 2670
F4-0
Warr W, pretty sea-shell. Scout NE, hill.
KK - MM to 6s (no waste), +4f.
TT-leave alone.
F1 okay.

IBT-Han Warr W, KK Settler -> Settler, and new contact!
Baekje is Polite, has 1 gold, 1 city, and is 4 techs behind us.

Turn 8, 2630
F4-0
Warr W, sees new Han borders. Scout N.
Settler N from KK, with Warr escort.
TT - MM to Warr in 1, +2f.
KK - MM to +4f for growth, 4s. Not sure if need to apologize for faster early Settler, but delay in factory.
lux still 30%, because moved Warrior from KK.

Turn 9, 2590
TT - Warr -> Warr
F4-0
Warr in TT to KK along newly completed road for MP. lux to 20%.
In the North, Scout N, NW to hill. Warr NW.
Worker near TT finishes mine, set to road for gold as am now working that square.
KK - return to +5f, only 4s.
Worker to KK.
Settler + Warr N

IBT - Han Warr disappears N.

Turn 10, 2550
F4-0
Kazan founded! Great name! Well, I did something right. Fortify Warr there.
In the North, Warr N (spots Shanghai and a veteran Warr), Scout NE, NE. Terrain mostly tundra now, but will fill in map.
Fortify vet Warr in KK.
Set Kazan to work the wheat for now, since it doesn't really help KK get a faster settler, I think.
Lux remains at 20%.

Finishing thoughts:
Ta-tu is building a Warrior, but may be better off switching to a Worker. I'll leave that decision to the next player. Maybe KK should push out a Worker instead, after the next Settler?
KK has a little way to go yet before becoming an efficient factory, with Kazan using the Wheat. Mining the hills and irrigating the other FP would probably do it, I haven't run the numbers.
Feel free to reverse any of the MM or production decisions!

Sorry for not posting a screenshot, I'm getting pressure to get off the computer and do something useful. If anyone else has time that would be great - but I wanted to get the save posted as soon as I could.

Eagerly awaiting commentary,
nikof

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Temujin,2550BC.SAV

 

[Karasu]

I got it -downloaded in a flash while leaving the office
(btw, remember to zip the saves, this will help prevent our file from getting corrupt during transfers)

I will read the log this evening (CET) and post tomorrow morning. I might even be able to play during the day (yeah, that's a long story...)

---Roster---

- AlanH
- Nikof: Just done
- Karasu: almost playing
- Grunthex: warming up
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit

 

[nikof]

Go Karasu!

 

[AlanH]

Good stuff, nikof. I've had a look at the save, made some notes on the log below, and done a couple of screenies. You can click this one to get to the close-up of Mongolia, or right click it to open the other in another window.

@Karasu: During the whole of the SGOTM2 sequence, we had 13 teams, 64 players and 346 non-zipped .sav files exchanged via the SGOTM server. There have been a few problems with players' installations, but none were due to corrupt saves as far as I am aware. I was watching this carefully, as I was aware of the theory that .sav files could get corrupted. If you know of any that were, I'd be interested to hear of them, and perhaps have a look at them. I must say I've always been suspicious of the theory as the upload protocols are pretty well protected, with error checking on every packet and sequence numbering to ensure that packets don't get lost or out of order.

Ta-tu Worker completes road. Goes SE to mine for another useful square, after that he may work/road the square SW of KK, while other Worker heads N. Other option was to cross river, irrigate & road towards horses. But rivers slow us down right now, and since we're in REX mode we probably don't need horses for a little while yet. Comments welcome. (later edit - but rivers give gold, too...)

I think I would have prioritised the development of the settler factory. It can do 5 fpt now, but it needs a shield or two more to get to four turn rate.

Tatu has grown to pop2. Ah, can't finish barracks next turn because 1s lost to corruption. Still, I want it faster and will sacrifice 1food to MM forest this turn only. (Breaks F=P rule).
KK - MM an i-FP to get one slower pop growth while Granary completes, and an extra gold.

Completing the barracks one turn early is good.

Set worker SW of KK to road, to have defense network, noting that there's a river between KK and next proposed city anyway.

Good point, and you should very rarely leave a tile without roading it first. Leaving it costs a move you'll have to make later to get back and road it. Roading it while you're there may imrove mobility later, and should give us more gold.

new contact!
Baekje is Polite, has 1 gold, 1 city, and is 4 techs behind us.

This is interesting. We should discuss whether we want to gift them some techs to get them to help with research and/or to reduce future tech prices. Do you know how we were contacted?

Settler N from KK, with Warr escort.

We've not seen any barbs, and the AI is very unlikely to attack an unescorted settler at this early stage, so I don't usually bother.

Sorry for not posting a screenshot, I'm getting pressure to get off the computer and do something useful. If anyone else has time that would be great - but I wanted to get the save posted as soon as I could.

Here you go. This image is a link to a close-up ....

 

[nikof]

Thanks AlanH!

This is interesting. We should discuss whether we want to gift them some techs to get them to help with research and/or to reduce future tech prices. Do you know how we were contacted?

One of Baekje's Warriors showed up on the peninsula E of KK, the one touching our border. Went away the next turn. So Korea has some competition, which is probably another good reason to gift Baekje some techs.

 

[Mistfit]

I know it's a bit premature but are we thinking 3rd ring at 8 or 9?

Also we may want our FP on this Island it seems to be quite large. Bejing might make a nice spot for it dependant on how much more land there is to the north.

Edit: Korea has 2 workers for sale right now

 

[AlanH]

I know it's a bit premature but are we thinking 3rd ring at 8 or 9?

Also we may want our FP on this Island it seems to be quite large. Bejing might make a nice spot for it dependant on how much more land there is to the north.

Edit: Korea has 2 workers for sale right now

Well spotted . I wonder if they are at war with Baekje or if it's barbs?
We should definitely buy those workers !!

 

[nikof]

I was about to do this :suicide: in shame and embarrassment - but I don't see the workers! I even downloaded my upload, and don't see them in the F4 screen.

 

[AlanH]

I was about to do this :suicide: in shame and embarrassment - but I don't see the workers! I even downloaded my upload, and don't see them in the F4 screen.

Yeah! I took Mistfit's word for it, but I've reloaded 2550 BC and there are no workers for sale here either! Equally

 

[DJMGator13]

I was about to do this :suicide: in shame and embarrassment - but I don't see the workers! I even downloaded my upload, and don't see them in the F4 screen.

Don't think they are actually available. They show up on the Trades tab in MapStat but not in the game. I have noticed this in some of my other games as well. I was going to pose that question/issue over in the MapStat thread.

Here is a look at an RCP8 & 9, with Alan's green & yellow dots included. Looks like only 1 river city either ring. RCP9 puts us closer to the lamb, sheep & a horse but all can be grbbed in a culturally expanded RCP8 city as well.

 

[AlanH]

The next cities after yellow and green will be rank 11 or greater. If we get there in time we could even settle a couple more across the water at RCP 5, making the next ring rank 13 or even 14. I don't know what the OCN for this map is, but I suspect those are all going to be pretty corrupt, so we should probably ignore RCP in that ring and concentrate on finding good locations that will become productive when we build an FP. If we can find a few locations with water that wll be within radius 5 of the proposed FP, then those should be our next sites.

Incidentally, looking at this shot, the southern yellow dot should prolly be one tile SW of its current location to grab more territory.

My 2¢

 

[Mistfit]

Hmm... Dianthus is so rarely wrong.. sorry for the excitement

 

[DJMGator13]

Incidentally, looking at this shot, the southern yellow dot should prolly be one tile SW of its current location to grab more territory.

The yellow dot is currently on a desert tile, while the SW tile is a BG. If we leave it there we get +2f+1s from that desert (which is why you probably selected that tile originally ).

Agree on the RCP issue, after 2 rings I usually build in best location because of the corruption.

EDIT: I have posted the Trade tab/worker question in the MapStat thread.

 

[AlanH]

I agree, Dianthus is usually reliable.

No problem, and no harm done, except maybe a short term blip in nikof's heart rate . It's all useful information, and you shouldn't hold it back. We now know that we need to cross check important data like that in the game itself.

 

[AlanH]

The yellow dot is currently on a desert tile, while the SW tile is a BG. If we leave it there we get +2f+1s from that desert (which is why you probably selected that tile originally )..

Undoubtedly . It's not so clear in the RCP plot. I need to remind *myself* to consult the game itself before making rash statements

 

[Mistfit]

Thank you Gator for bringing that up to Dianthus. It may help me from making silly statements like that in the future....but I doubt it.

Note to team: I believe I have just made my last turns in the SGOTM so I will be spending more of my efforts here. Now if I could just figure out a way to never work again, I'd be all set.

 

[AlanH]

Now if I could just figure out a way to never work again, I'd be all set.

Hint: Retire. It works for me