Just a little clarification

Marshall Ney

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I want to know if in the city view, is the tile usage still two tiles deep as before or can usage be more later in game(like Civ V)??? Or is there a option to be able to use more tiles used in city??? The reason I ask is the the borders on big map expand much more than I remember in vanilla.

Also, if city usage is just 2 tiles, but there is something within borders more than two tiles away, can it be developed and used by one's empire?? by the way great mod; best I have come across in any genre.:crazyeye:


Thanks,

MN
 

Thunderbrd

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Cities can expand to use the 3rd tile radius. How they do this is dependent upon whether you're using the game option that controls that... something like Larger Cities without Metropolitan Administration or something. If it's not on then you must build a Metropolitan Admin building to get the 3rd tile access but if it IS then you simply need to get your culture up to a very high level (Influential I think).

I prefer the culture method since I feel that makes culture more valuable in play.


About your second question, forts can capture out of radius improvements but the fort type must count as a city and I think there may be an oversight in the improvement texts on fort improvements that let you know which is which. From what I can tell, Forts (as named) and better will accomplish the goal. You'll need a route to the resource as well. And you should make sure to staff the fort because they're very easily turned against you if you don't. City defense values count when on such a tile though.
 

BlueGenie

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You need both Infuential AND a Metro Admin though T-Brd. And there is too much culture in the game again, currently. The levels for expanding culture need tweaking every now and then according to how many +culture things are added in the game.

As for teh second question: you can place a normal improvment on the resource and gain access to that resource in your empire. Some resources, like Camle, Horse, Elephant, Iron, Copper, then grant a "National usage of resource" type of national building you can build in any city then to get City Vicinity access to that resource. Other than that you only gain access to the resource itself, the +:) and :health: it grants, but NOT to the special buildings the resource would unlock in City Vicinity cities.

T-brd answered a different quesion but that one is valid too. *smile*

Cheers
 

JosEPh_II

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You need both Infuential AND a Metro Admin though T-Brd. And there is too much culture in the game again, currently. The levels for expanding culture need tweaking every now and then according to how many +culture things are added in the game.

<snip>

Cheers

-1 :shake:
When was the last time you or an AI in your game had a Cultural victory? The latest culture additions were to correct this Lack of culture.

Please consider that there are still players who would like for a Cultural or Religious or Scientific Victory to still be relevant. With the Push to try to get everyone to use Mastery Victory condition these other conditions just get weaker and weaker. Not everyone wants to play every game as a Conquest Victory. And That is what Mastery really ends up being. I wish it (Mastery Victory) would have never been introduced into any Mod as it weakens all other Victory conditions save Conquest and Domination. And because of it and other changes Culture is weak not too strong. When was the last time you Flipped a city by Culture?

Culture levels do not need tweaking to lower but just the opposite. Culture needs more increase.

And this early game Unit maint. tweak, just recently implemented, is stopping the AI from expanding. You can't have more than 5 units and your research slider is down to 10-20% or lower. I really dislike what has been done to the 1st part of the game now up to Tribalism.

JosEPh
 

BlueGenie

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I increased the number of free units in the early game Joe.
The first 10 units are without upkeep, more due to Handicap level and only if you are in Anarchism and want to War would it cost you too much, or if you wanted to keep hoards of animals for later use.
As Alberts removed the +1 per military unit cost for Anarchism you have even more leeway when it comes to units even when going to war or having loads of animals saved.
When I start a Small, Epic, Monarch game on current SVN I end up with 18 (eighteen) free units before upkeep starts kicking in @ turn 1. So 5 units is BS, and 3 out exploring is too.
Sorry Joe, but that one you are wrong about, not just an opinion, but numbers do not lie.

Your opinion about how you dislike the part up until Tribalism is noted though, and if you can point to what in general it is you do not like (and not the units as you have plenty with 18 free units) then something might be able to be done about it.

As for maintenaces, yes, they were raised, BUT the modifiers from Civics were largely removed or reduced and that results in a net value of a slight reduction if expanding slowly, and a slight increase if expanding more, and a very high increase if expanding very fast.

As for Culture Victory, yes, I can do that, not too hard, but the question is WHEN do you think a win by Cultural Victiry should be possible? By Reinassance Era? By Modern Era? Which Era should it at first be possible to win by Culture?
Right now I think it can come too early but you might think my too early is too late. *smile* Though if it should be possible earlier then there should be ways to counteract it too, without having to resort to war and take a city out to stop a rival.

Cheers
 

JosEPh_II

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I increased the number of free units in the early game Joe.
The first 10 units are without upkeep, more due to Handicap level and only if you are in Anarchism and want to War would it cost you too much, or if you wanted to keep hoards of animals for later use.
As Alberts removed the +1 per military unit cost for Anarchism you have even more leeway when it comes to units even when going to war or having loads of animals saved.
When I start a Small, Epic, Monarch game on current SVN I end up with 18 (eighteen) free units before upkeep starts kicking in @ turn 1. So 5 units is BS, and 3 out exploring is too.
Sorry Joe, but that one you are wrong about, not just an opinion, but numbers do not lie.

Your opinion about how you dislike the part up until Tribalism is noted though, and if you can point to what in general it is you do not like (and not the units as you have plenty with 18 free units) then something might be able to be done about it.

As for maintenaces, yes, they were raised, BUT the modifiers from Civics were largely removed or reduced and that results in a net value of a slight reduction if expanding slowly, and a slight increase if expanding more, and a very high increase if expanding very fast.

As for Culture Victory, yes, I can do that, not too hard, but the question is WHEN do you think a win by Cultural Victory should be possible? By Reinassance Era? By Modern Era? Which Era should it at first be possible to win by Culture?
Right now I think it can come too early but you might think my too early is too late. *smile* Though if it should be possible earlier then there should be ways to counteract it too, without having to resort to war and take a city out to stop a rival.

Cheers

Don't call me a liar BG. No I do not have 18 Free units, never have. And I have screenshots to Prove my number of units AND their Maint Cost. Your "numbers" are "off". And it's Not my opinion.

And again This is Beginning game up to Tribalism. Most units I had in the game at the same time during this time frame was Tribal Guardian, Brute, 2 gatherers, 2 Stone thrower and 2 stone Spearmen that the stone throwers popped from goody huts. I lost both stone throwers shortly afterwards. By the time I got Clubman researched and then Spiked Club researched I had lost both spearmen. My sole Clubman built after losing the spear was upgraded to spiked and I built another spiked club. The Brute was upgraded to clubman (at 64Gold!) wanted to upgrade him to Spiked but Not for 108 gold!!!, as my treasury could not support that. So I've had for most of this time frame 2 units in city 1 gatherer making improvements and 2 or 3 "hunting" units out exploring and trying to subdue animals.

At NO time in this game have I had 18 units in the game at the same time PERIOD! My total units (including those killed by animals and animals subdued, which has been few and used immediately) up to tribalism have not totaled 18 units.

I resent you thinking and posting that I'm just "throwing my opinion" out there. The game is Off since your changes. The AI is not being able to grow sufficiently to make even a slightly challenging game on Monarch. This was Not the case before your additions.

JosEPh
 

BlueGenie

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@Joe. Never said you were a liar. Take that back. I said "numbers do not lie".
Do you per chance play with a trait that gives you less free units? Alberts found one such and changed the Anarchism unit cost because of that.
If you do play with such a trait then you probably had the same problem before the update too. If not then something else has been changed.
But that is not a maintenance fault, it is a traits fault. Not because of any changes I and SO made though our changes might have served to SHOW these other problems that need fixing.

If you want to put blame somewhere then put it where it belongs. Science being too fast, or traits being unbalanced for start, or AI being too afraid to move it's settlers out, or anything that is actually at fault.
I know the changes I helped SO set up are not making your units cost more because the ONLY thing I did to units was to INCREASE Base Free units in GlobalDefines.xml from 6 to 10.
Checking the XML I see that someone has set it back down to 4, even less than before. This is NOT in the changes I made. (this makes your base free untis at 10 from Monarch and 4 from Global, so 14, then that is reduced by Traits and that is it as far as I know)

Now, Joe, what is wrong with me thining you are throwing your opinion into the C2C community? I throw my opinion in here from time to time and sometimes I get listened to, sometimes I do not. Mostly not. I mean, it is your opinion you are stating, is it not? The part about how you dislike the part of the game before Tribalism? Which is what my comment about your opinion was about.

I'd do another check but your screenshots leave a lot to see, like the number of free units allowed by your civ, and what leader and traits you have. but then again you are with your screenshots proving that City Maintenace (the ONE things SO and I changed around with) is NOT the culprit here but your UNITS are, which we did NOT touch (though someone set them down to 4 base free units).

Cheers
 

Marshall Ney

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I didn't mean to start a arguement!!! But thanks for all your replies.:goodjob:

I wasn't sure that the larger city option allowed what I was asking about since I just played Civ V w/mod that allowed same.

Again, thanks, for all the work on this mod.

MN
 

JosEPh_II

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@Joe. Never said you were a liar. Take that back. I said "numbers do not lie".
Do you per chance play with a trait that gives you less free units? Alberts found one such and changed the Anarchism unit cost because of that.
If you do play with such a trait then you probably had the same problem before the update too. If not then something else has been changed.
But that is not a maintenance fault, it is a traits fault. Not because of any changes I and SO made though our changes might have served to SHOW these other problems that need fixing.

If you want to put blame somewhere then put it where it belongs. Science being too fast, or traits being unbalanced for start, or AI being too afraid to move it's settlers out, or anything that is actually at fault.
I know the changes I helped SO set up are not making your units cost more because the ONLY thing I did to units was to INCREASE Base Free units in GlobalDefines.xml from 6 to 10.
Checking the XML I see that someone has set it back down to 4, even less than before. This is NOT in the changes I made. (this makes your base free untis at 10 from Monarch and 4 from Global, so 14, then that is reduced by Traits and that is it as far as I know)

Now, Joe, what is wrong with me thining you are throwing your opinion into the C2C community? I throw my opinion in here from time to time and sometimes I get listened to, sometimes I do not. Mostly not. I mean, it is your opinion you are stating, is it not? The part about how you dislike the part of the game before Tribalism? Which is what my comment about your opinion was about.

I'd do another check but your screenshots leave a lot to see, like the number of free units allowed by your civ, and what leader and traits you have. but then again you are with your screenshots proving that City Maintenace (the ONE things SO and I changed around with) is NOT the culprit here but your UNITS are, which we did NOT touch (though someone set them down to 4 base free units).

Cheers

Numbers can be manipulated and provide false data.

No, I do not "knowingly" use a leader with less units as I do not use Any of the Trait Options at game set up. I stopped using them along time back.

Actually it is "a" maint. fault. Any time you had more than 2 movable mil units in the game Unit Maint starts/kicks in. As you've since discovered and have had alberts2 remove.
But now, after Chiefdom Civic is activated, each city above 1 (your original) increases the City Maint costs by 7 gold for the 2nd and 3rd cities till the combined cost is 21 gold. Then after you have reached 4 cities the City maint costs have increased to 36 Gold. And the 5th city jumps it to 78 Gold. So here is an "opinion" I'll "throw out", Bah Hum bug this is exorbitant. And it stifles the AI's growth.

Science is not too fast for Marathon or Epic game speeds, imho (oops another opinion). I do not play Eternity or Eon as those are boring click turn click turn do nuthing fests for me. And you based your research off the longest gamespeed (Eternity)and Highest Difficulty level (Deity) which in turn has skewed the whole output data. I have been down this dust road way too many times over the last 7 years where deity players try to impose their way of playing onto everyone. And it inevitably screws the game.

Again I don't use Any of the Trait Options so I play with stock traits.

And by saying my screenshots and data sample are opinions you did basically call me a ****. But I will take it back... this time. Don't do it again, okay?

JosEPh
 

Thunderbrd

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Guys, I know sometimes I get embroiled in this kind of stuff myself so I think I'm qualified to try to remind both of you that we're all trying to help in the best ways we know how. Please try not to take things personal.

It's also easier said when I haven't had time to playtest much lately of course.
 

BlueGenie

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You are pointing on things I have not even said, but whatever.
I still believe it is better to have the right measurements taken and tweak and work around from that than the patchwork that was done before.
But when you are not even reading what I am writing properly then I can not discuss it either, as it makes no difference what I say then.
I. Only. Said. Opinion. About. Your. Feeling. Of. The. Early. Game. Until. Tribalism. Nothing else.
But, whatever, I'll just butt out and do my thing instead of trying to help.
 

Thunderbrd

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But, whatever, I'll just butt out and do my thing instead of trying to help.
Now that is entirely not the attitude to respond with. If there's a mess and you've contributed (and trust me I know how often it appears to be a mess when you've begun to clean up less visible but more real problems) then it's your responsibility to continue to help to get things back into a balanced state.

btw, are you officially ON the team yet or just working through SO? I'd almost prefer it if you were just part of the team and making your adjustments, taking accountability for them if others aren't satisfied and trying to bring us all into a more rational game balance. You've proven you can spot problems and can think quite deeply to address them but this whole thing about contributing through another team member is hindering your ability to fix issues more directly or even comment on them as there's been numerous times when I've read that you meant for one thing or another to take place when it hadn't and that threw things out of whack. Wouldn't it just be easier to actually directly contribute, playtest against the core mod, and take some responsibility for these kinds of balance issues in general? You'd have more of a leg to stand on to defend your choices but at the same time you'd have to at least try to keep complaints like those from Joseph here in mind and try to dial things back when they've become too severe.

Wouldn't it be easier to work these problems out that way?
 

Snofru1

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Science is not too fast for Marathon or Epic game speeds, imho (oops another opinion). I do not play Eternity or Eon as those are boring click turn click turn do nuthing fests for me. And you based your research off the longest gamespeed (Eternity)and Highest Difficulty level (Deity) which in turn has skewed the whole output data. I have been down this dust road way too many times over the last 7 years where deity players try to impose their way of playing onto everyone.

I am definitely not a deity player (usually monarch or lower) and I play snail. And I have also observed that science is way too quick compared to unit or building construction (you could also say unit and building construction is too slow). This is in the game for a long time now and I would really like to see it being changed.

Of course just another opinion...
 

JosEPh_II

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@BG,
It's all right if you want to get :mad: at me, I'm used to it. Just don't take it out on the mod. Reconsider what ThunderBrd is saying.

I've decided that I'll just let other ppl speak up with the obvious. DH has already supported my position and that's all I need. Whether your changes Caused or Revealed a serious AI problem is now moot. There is a consensus now that the AI is hindered at the beginning and early part of the mod. Warning: And ppl better be watching the changes going on with crime too. Opinion: it's going to go thru the roof again.

JosEPh
 

Hydromancerx

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I am definitely not a deity player (usually monarch or lower) and I play snail. And I have also observed that science is way too quick compared to unit or building construction (you could also say unit and building construction is too slow). This is in the game for a long time now and I would really like to see it being changed.

I agree and think this needs to be fixed ASAP. The mod is made around the whole concept that techs take longer to research than units or buildings do to get (no necessarily wonders though). Having the opposite causes things to be completely unbalanced. Rather than being able to slowly progress and enjoy the buildings as you go you are rushed though the techs and buildings become obsolete before you can even build them.

Remember this game is made for a slow and steady pace. While little changes add up over time to make big changes. C2C is made to be a marathon, not a sprint.
 
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On Snail/Noble teching is way too fast. Both before and after alberts changes.

When alberts made his small change to maintenance recently my game went from 60% science and -2:gold: per turn with 5 units (including the tribal guardian) to 100% science +4:gold: per turn and 15 units! This is a major change for something which is supposed to be minor.

Warning: And ppl better be watching the changes going on with crime too. Opinion: it's going to go thru the roof again.

JosEPh

I keep trying to get a deterministic solution in place for this, ie some direct action that the player can do, but I just don't have the time. My current thoughts are three fold
  1. A national anti-crime effort - at the national level you spend a lot of money and for a short while crime is reduced in all cities and your cultural lands, criminal units caught, expelled or killed. Causes unhappiness for the duration and you can't build criminal units while active
  2. A city based anti-crime effort similar to the above but for one city only
  3. A unit mission for crime fighting units that puts them on heightened activity. Costs, causes unhappiness may result in the loss of the unit - they get killed in action or just give up. This one may be a bit too much micro management.

The big part of this that takes time is changing the Domestic Adviser screen to permit these.
 

Yudishtira

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I keep trying to get a deterministic solution in place for this, ie some direct action that the player can do, but I just don't have the time. My current thoughts are three fold
  1. A national anti-crime effort - at the national level you spend a lot of money and for a short while crime is reduced in all cities and your cultural lands, criminal units caught, expelled or killed. Causes unhappiness for the duration and you can't build criminal units while active
  2. A city based anti-crime effort similar to the above but for one city only
  3. A unit mission for crime fighting units that puts them on heightened activity. Costs, causes unhappiness may result in the loss of the unit - they get killed in action or just give up. This one may be a bit too much micro management.

The big part of this that takes time is changing the Domestic Adviser screen to permit these.

Great ideas! And why should it affect the Domestic Advisor? (Regrettably I don't understand this statement enough to ask a more specific question.:p)
 
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1. is done from the Domestic Adviser screen. Along with nation wide anti-terrorist or multicultural stuff ie most of the stuff we want from the WLBO mod
2. is probably a process like Produce Wealth (I originally thought of it as something done from the Domestic Adviser screen).
3. is a mission/action for the unit.
 

Yudishtira

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1. is done from the Domestic Adviser screen. Along with nation wide anti-terrorist or multicultural stuff ie most of the stuff we want from the WLBO mod

But couldn't it just as easily be a mission for a judge/lawyer, or even a national wonder?

ETA: ....or a Heroic achievement (in fact there already is one...)
 

alberts2

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On Snail/Noble teching is way too fast. Both before and after alberts changes.

When alberts made his small change to maintenance recently my game went from 60% science and -2:gold: per turn with 5 units (including the tribal guardian) to 100% science +4:gold: per turn and 15 units! This is a major change for something which is supposed to be minor.

Exactly Snail is alot to fast.

The main reason why i removed the unit maintenance from Anachism was fairness. Because of Traits Players start with different numbers of free Units(from -6 to ~20) with a 1:gold: per Turn cost the start of the game was very unfair.
 
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