Just a random map

[BornInCantaloup]

In any case, Astronomy comes with many benefits.
It unlocks 2 trading partners (resources, gold, techs), trade routes, opens up invasion possibilities.
If/when I do an overseas invasion, I'd like Riflemen + a navy to bombard. Siege can be minimal (Cannons would help but are not a priority).
I thought I'd be able to trade for Astronomy with Hannibal but it seems like I'll, at least, have to research along the line (Compass, Optics). It can be fine.
At this point of the game (t125, write up incoming), I'm reluctant to trade with Mansa, since it will be increasingly difficult to keep up in techs with him if he's my only trade partner.
--> Getting trades with Justinian/Pericles is sort of a priority. I'm willing to backfill techs instead of beelining.
--> Either I can race towards Economics, either I'll research Compass myself.

Otherwise, @ beeline, I have my eyes on Steam Power.
What I've been thinking is that I can trade Assembly Line for the whole of Physics, Biology, Communism.
For this to work, I need several trade partners (advanced AIs).
Also, early Astronomy, possibly. Trading Astronomy puts the AIs on their way to Scientific Method and helps ensure the Assembly Line trade is a working thing.
It wasn't easy to assess whether those AIs would need my help (I get Astro first) or whether I would be the late one (Steam Power beeline).
However, it was certainly my fault that I realized I was cut off trades with Carthage 15 turns after the fact ^^

 

[Rusten]

Hannibal and Mansa -- name a more iconic duo.
I assume they're friendly towards one another in your game? They seem quite the pair -- even leaving people like Pericles (with a great start) and Willem so far behind.

Good thing I nipped that relationship in the bud.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, I'd like to keep them a strong teching duo.
They're not actually Friendly with each other. Mansa isn't friendly with anyone and he has a -4 peaceweight penalty with Hannibal.
If they both adopt Free Market (fav civic) and Mansa remains Jewish, then they'll both be Friendly with each other.
Diplo glance from t122 :

Spoiler :

Write up to t125 :

Spoiler :

So, 25 BC,
My stack is at the gate of Amsterdam. Woodsman Mace has found its first worker. Warwick has whipped its Forge, into a Library and now starts overflowing hammers into the National Epic.
We're PHI, so the National Epic has less value than usual but it's still an important building to complete. Next, Warwick will have to unlock specialist slots (Market).
York has grown into unhappiness, a galley is in its build queue and it now starts on a settler (claim Crab).
Medic scout is out next turn :

Spoiler :

Oh, and Education is complete. This is the turn when I could have started working on Compass.
I can remember now : I was very much hoping to be able to trade for Guilds / Banking and open up Replaceable Parts. Won't happen.
Mali has Guilds, Engineering next turn. Carthage has Engineering and Optics.

You can see how I've started to distract from military production. My stack doesn't need much to be maintained, mostly Cats.
One turn later, the settler from Hastings is out to go claim the gems. And I actually devote a lot of workforce to make sure he gets there (3 workers road and will set up the jungle city) :

Spoiler :

"c" spot is a backfill location for whenever I got the time. Can be a helper, work cottages and produce units.

Willem finally has Machinery + Civil Service, i.e. Crossbows and Maces. I suppose that's fine. It means I will need to sacrifice about 4 catapults on Amsterdam.
Woody Mace goes from a worker steal to a double worker steal. First worker goes NW, NW and hides in the shadows (3 tiles away from any city). New workers will be easier to get back in my territory. They'll just go NE, NE :

Spoiler :

t118 we attack and capture Amsterdam. I'm starting to get 3rd promotions on my units.
Amsterdam... doesn't even have an Academy, nor a river, a single seafood. It will never be a tremendous commerce spot. Maybe I'll keep it as a production city :

Spoiler :

I actually quite like this above screenshot. Especially the number and variety of Willem's units.
The axeman accompanies a settler ; there's a spear under the catapults, the crossbow and the elephant are targeting Utrecht.
I think we can see this amount of movement because I cut Willem's territory from North to South, instead of going from one edge of his territory to another. This encourages him to move his units East-West and makes it so we can fight in the field as well as in cities.

Mansa is getting Education in 5 turns ; I'm getting Printing Press in 5 turns. Awkward.
Remember I put a turn or 2 into Liberalism after Education ? This is how far down the tech I am. It's close, it's very close. If Mansa goes Education into Liberalism, things will be bad :

Spoiler :

The two above pictures are taken from the same turn. We get to see something interesting.
The southern stack will move against Nijmegen. As I mentioned, the amount of siege I have available is what I try to monitor, in order to keep pushing into Willem's.
Well, as it happens, I've got 6 catapults in the south and will have 3 in Canterbury on the next turn. And a couple of macemen, and a crossbow, and my woodsman mace has had vision over Maastricht for a while, now : I'm very much aware there are only 2 units to defend it. The city doesn't have Walls, 3 Cats are perfectly fine to start with.
--> It's time to split the army and make a secondary stack. Ideally, I'd have roaded the tile SW of Canterbury (speeding up movement can be equal to 1 less defender in Maastricht) but I didn't anticipate enough.

t120 : I'm running dangerously low on gold.
Stacks have reached Nijmegen and Maastricht, will bombard next turn. Willem sends units out of Nijmegen to target Utrecht, Amsterdam.
Oxford is settled inland, claiming rice + 4x gems :

Spoiler :

t122 Nijmegen falls, then I can clear lots of units in the field and capture a couple of workers with my remaining WEs :

Spoiler :

In the north, Warwick whips a settler (overflow into Nat Epic) that will claim a 2x fish island to the West. Border pop in that city will let me reach yet another island.
Newcastle is doing a fine job at supporting offshore expansion :

Spoiler :

As it happens, Mansa goes Education into Liberalism. It's a close race and, more importantly, I'm short on gold.
Cities start building wealth but it's almost moot, since I have so few hammer tiles. It's too bad but London cannot complete its university yet.
t124, I can capture Maastricht, which is a life saver :

Spoiler :

Funny thing : I only have 1 maceman in the city and Willem doesn't take it back.
In the East, units are just coming back from Nijmegen and will target The Hague, next.
Either I merge my stacks, either I send the units from Maastricht over to the West. Willem has 3 more inland cities : 2 to the south, 1 to the West.

And 250 AD, t125, I need about 100 gold to complete Liberalism before Mansa does.
Despite my best efforts, I only have 6 catapults left (good argument for merging stacks and taking the time I need to heal my melee units :

Spoiler :

War unhappiness is starting to kick in : -4 happies in London due to that. Fortunately, I'm getting my first gems online on the next turn and I'm capturing valuable resources from Willem (dyes, spices, wine).
Settler for Crab island is out :

Spoiler :

Tech trade screen :

Spoiler :

That's awful. I'm locked into Liberalism --> Nationalism (no other option).
And, which is more, I need to trade a tech to Mansa or Hannibal if I wanna have enough gold to do so.

I'm probably trading Printing Press for Guilds and bulbing Nationalism.
Next turn, I'll see what Mansa researches and head either towards Banking or Compass.

At least, it seems like Pericles and Justinian are catching up.

Up to 14 workers and maybe 40 jungle tiles in sight. I might need a worker burst in order to develop the land faster.
I'm also at a point where, siege excepted, I might want to focus on infrastructure. I could use the Forges, the Libraries, the Universities, and maybe some Courthouses as well.
Still need a lot. A couple of settlers as well (2x fish offshore to the NE and helper city in the jungle).

 

[Rusten]

We're PHI, so the National Epic has less value than usual but it's still an important building to complete. Next, Warwick will have to unlock specialist slots (Market).

Do you have Drama? Theatre is a superb building for GPP when you're not running caste. Only 50 hammers which is affordable for low-prod cities and even gives +1 happy here.

Close call on Liberalism.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, I have Drama
I always research Drama if I'm getting Music. The tech is almost free and a great trade bait.
Agreed on the building, I'm likely to build an amount of theatres. I'm also looking for a Globe Theatre location but haven't decided on anything, yet.

For gpp, I'd really like a Merchant, next, for a trade mission. Especially if I'm close to massively set up research multipliers (I've only built 3 Libraries, so far).
So, the Market has priority, even if it's a very expensive whip.
For the later great persons, it might not matter what type they are and hiring artists would be fine, indeed.

@ Liberalism :
I think it's sort of wasted, here. I'll still get it but it's not the deal breaker I hoped it would be.

 

[Rusten]

Liberalism is not a big deal indeed. I was actually planning on going the lower route (guilds-(banking)-gunpowder-chemistry-steel) for synergy with the UB and massive empire warfare and possibly skipping Edu+Lib in the process. Willem built the mids so merc+rep was also a goal. However, for some reason nobody wanted to research guilds (only Willem, with whom I was at war) so I ended up lightbulbing Education over starting a GA. The way it's played out I will probably go MT rather than Steel because I could trade for Nationalism, and SP workshops over merc+emancipation cottages. Mansa Musa RNG at its finest.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Oh ! This is something I wanted to asked you about. I had a feeling you did it but wasn't sure : you did self tech Engineering, right ?
Maybe you said so already and I read one of your posts a little too quickly.
I thought about researching it myself. Didn't end up doing so in fear of getting out-teched.

Merc + Rep is a nasty combo, alright. Especially if you've kept up with your offshore expansion. I trust you have, haven't you ?

MT does make sense in your game, if you've got those left over veteran HAs that you can upgrade.
State Property workshops... I don't know about that. With a FIN character ? wind/watermills, sure but shops, I don't know.

I have the feeling we'll finish off Willem at about the same time. Except you'll have the whole of Carthage on me (10 extra cities ?).
Seems like it will be early enough to invest massively in cottages.
If you've got Nationalism, it opens up Constitution (they'll get it) and Democracy.

Do you have a shrine ? I know it is gadget but I wish I had access to one of those.

 

[Rusten]

Yes, I teched Engineering all by myself.
I do have a shrine (soon). Willem has been kind enough to spread christianity to most of my cities in addition to constructing the shrine.

SP workshops are so much quicker to set up that I feel they're almost always the best choice -- even with a financial leader. Maybe I'll try cottages here just to have something to compare with. Perhaps I should target printing press to lure Mansa towards Democracy.

I do have HE shortly which alleviates the need for military production everywhere. Cottage game it is.

Obvious offshore cities are being settled.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

So you do see the parallel between Mutalisks and Cuirassiers, I get it !

Here you go, same settings, Gandhi :

Spoiler :

 

[Pedro78]

I don't really understand the purpose of this new map. One of Gandhi's biggest advantages over Lizzy is that he can bulb Engineering, and you give us a fishing start
(And that start is much weaker than the Lizzy one)

 

[Rusten]

I didn't notice you posted here instead.

And the joys of stacking mutalisks.... aaahhhh
What is then the civ 4 equivalent of the overlord (to enable the stacking)? The Great Medic?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Starting screenshot edited in above post.

This map is posted with gratuity, Pedro. There's no need for a special reason or a non-fishing start... I mean : why did I post a non-marble start ? It's just a cool-looking start that has some potential. Did you settle Delhi ? I don't think it's any weaker than London in the other game.
I generated maps in a batch when I did Dazzling Lizzy and this one was a serious contender for forum play. I'm sure Gandhi has some very interesting gameplay.
Since I didn't wrap my game over in a week, it gets to be shared. It's not really for me to play but whoever.




The Overlord, also known as the 12th unit. I'm not sure if it has an obvious equivalent in Civ.
The Zerg sacrifice some long-term economy (drones) to tech up and build an army (@ burst strategies). That doesn't apply to the other races, since they rather give up on some army (production buildings) to tech up (linear / exponential).

~~~~

I've advanced my game to 640 AD. Hopefully, I'll play some and update some today.
I'm having troubles with updating : I do not want to spend 3 hours daily on a write-up.

~~~~

Here you go, for your patience. Now you can have fun and read the newspaper while I do the cooking and the laundry :

 

[BornInCantaloup]

We left on 25 BC, t114, and here it runs to t122 :

Spoiler :

1 turn to the end of a Golden Age, Utrecht has been captured, the army is advancing towards Amsterdam, I stay in Hinduism (happies) and revolt back into Slavery + Organized Religion,
2 Great Scientists were produced during the GA, 1 for an Academy in London, the 2nd bulbed into Education, which will be completed at end of turn, and Warwick produced a bunch of the next GP, hiring Merchants,
I'm getting a couple of Galleys in the north to settle islands,
Willem had only Archers, Axes and Swords a few turns ago but now he has unlocked Longbows, Macemen, Crossbows and will soon have Elephants : we're in a siege war at tech parity. The saving grace, here, is that we have the initiative (army already produced). He'll upgrade troops and produce some, so our Catapults really are sacrificial units. Also, Willem's Empire is 1/3rd offshore and this is a little helpful.

Unit production : I need a few counter units. Macemen + Elephants don't fear much but adding a Crossbow here and there is helpful.
Mostly, I only whip tiles that I can share with another city that has grown,
If all tiles worked are at least food neutral (+2), whips happen shortly before growth. That minimizes the loss of worked tiles. (Whip 2pop, regrow next turn.)

Hannibal and Mansa have a better GNP than I do. So, I feel a little worried about securing Liberalism. After Education is done, I invest a few turns of research into it, so I can race towards Lib if I need to.

t116 : Despite having initiative and attacking Willem before he started building up units, this is what we find in Amsterdam :

Spoiler :

My own unit count is something like 8 Elephants, 7 Maces, 11 Catapults. I'll sacrifice 4 catapults on this city, so reinforcing Cats takes priority.
In the above screen, you can also see how far I am from the next GP. Warwick will try and set up the National Epic and its infrastructure before completing it.
This is the turn when I switch from Liberalism to researching Printing Press.

Spoiler :

Hastings whips a settler that will claim the gems cluster to the SE. I actually have 3 workers in position to :
a) road the jungle and speed up movement ;
b) improve the first gems tile when the city is planted.
First General has got to be a medic scout.

t117 :

Spoiler :

I decide to plant the city SE of the rice. I think it protects my territory nicely. To secure the gems entirely from rival culture, I'd need another city East of the gems, though.
The "c" mark is a backfill location that I will only settle very late, far too late for it to really matter (and I'll actually settle it SW of the mark).
Reinforcements flow around Canterbury.

Woodsman Maceman finds some workers, placed conveniently enough that I can easily repatriate them :

Spoiler :

Wow, there was a stack in Amsterdam, wasn't there ? Vision over The Hague and, especially, Maastricht, reveals very empty cities.

t118, during the winter of t118, after sieging Amsterdam for 2 turns, I get to attack the city, capture it and witness the fact that : what the hell, Willem ?
There isn't even an Academy or a settled GP in there. I will never turn Amsterdam into a super science city but, instead, I will settle my next general in there and try to build the Heroic Epic (after the most basic infra is done : long process).

Spoiler :

Now, tactically, this is an interesting turn of the war. I've got 6 catapults around there. There will be a little fighting in the field (you can see the many stray units Willem has) but the stack is heading straight towards Nijmegen.
The great medic is in Utrecht and will combine with them next turn.
Now, reinforcements ? This stack doesn't need reinforcements : Nijmegen is isolated.

Spoiler :

I didn't anticipate well enough to road SW of Canterbury but reinforcements are going after Maastricht. Last time we saw the city, there were 2 garrison units.
The city isn't walled. Canterbury 1pop whips a Catapult and I'm sending 3 Cats, 2 Macemen and a Crossbow to siege, starting next turn.

So, t120, summertime : I've maintained my numbers to 8 Macemen, 7 Elephants and 11 Catapults.
London takes advantage of this fact to finally start on its University. Yes, it all goes very slow but you've got to realize I'm actually meeting some resistance, here (compared with, say, a HA rush on no-metal Hannibal), and the army should take priority.
One thing that I maybe did wrong is the following : I'm cottaging as I clear up the jungle. However, I still need to produce units and, when peace time comes, infrastructure : my cities are very poor on infra. Therefore, it's very well possible that farms (superior production) should have been favoured over cottages. At least a number of them.

Anyway, t120, the army is in position to siege Maastricht and Nijmegen. Willem keeps moving around with smallish stacks, trying to threaten the newly captured cities or my poorly defended border cities : that's fine with me : I'd rather have his units be on the move in the open terrain than fortified in hilly fortresses :

Spoiler :

Most conspicuously, I'm getting Printing Press in 3 turns and Mansa is getting Education in the same 3 turns.

Infrastructure ? I have 3 Libraries (London, York, Warwick) and 2 Forges. 4 Barracks. Very little.
Settlers are finally ready to get on the move in the north. Once again, my army has been maintained and that's the priority :

Spoiler :

Newcastle is quite the strong city. It will produce most of the workboats I need and slowly invest in infrastructure.

Still have 10 catapults after Nijmegen falls. I get to spread my spare Elephants wide open and capture a few workers. Remaining Catapults will be cleared on the next turn :

Spoiler :

Greek culture to the East... hmm... that won't be easy to fight off.

Maastricht : not ready to fall, yet. Actually, I lack melee units over there :

Spoiler :

Stray Catapult west of Canterbury : I wanted to bait that annoying Maceman on jungle, wound it and then clear it. If I recall correctly, Willem's Mace destroys my Catapult without suffering a wound and I get to manoeuver around it for some extra turns.
Clearing the mace would allow me to road SW of Canterbury and reinforce my small stack a lot easier.

Mansa Musa gets Education on the next turn. What comes next, what does ?
Well, we'll see next time.

 

[dutchfire]

I've got the impression that you're doing lots of long-term investments at the moment. Settling overseas, settling the gems in the middle of the bloody jungle, working cottages in the recently cleared jungle, and the war. I personally prefer to go a bit more all-in on wars. Here you've given Willem a lot of time to build up his defences and this is making the war a lot more expensive. The 50 AD screenshot shows two defenders in Maastricht, with a swordsman at the top. Wouldn't an extra unit or two going to Maastricht at that point be more valuable than the settler you've build for the gems? In terms of shortening the war, avoiding reinforcements and in terms of short and medium-term pay-off.

This is also visible in your tile improvements. A city like Canterbury might have had a few farms and just be whipville for some time to produce an army that would have given you another city by now.

I appreciate that this is all said with hindsight and that this makes it easy to comment.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, I think you're right.

Farms : I'm quite sure I should have done more, so as to get more production. I've almost played to 800 AD and that decision still bites me. (Also, I favoured Forges over Universities in commerce cities, which I now feel was a mistake.)
Build orders : it's a tough call. If you build more troops, you may be able to conquer faster. War takes a bigger toll on your economy, too, but if it ends earlier, chances are you end up better off. Once I know my stack won't get countered, however, the temptation is real to invest in those settlers, far away galleys, set up the National Epic, give the capital its multipliers...

I don't know the right answer, here. Those long term investments also allow to keep up turn by turn with Mansa/Hannibal. It might be a soft spot of mine.
For sure, I misjudged the number of units I needed to capture Maastricht.

Actually, I didn't anticipate I'd go after Maastricht right after Amsterdam's capture. I just happened to see I had 5 units in the area, including 2 catapults. I probably should have adjusted my builds a little more at that point, to get the appropriate melee count, but the decision was made on the fly.

 

[elitetroops]

Very interesting game! Obviously you are doing very well, so it's hard to criticize anything.

I notice you build way more cottages than I do. Lately I've completely stopped building them outside of capital. Maybe this is a difficulty level thing? I've found that on immortal going farms and units for an all out conquest economy is the most efficient, regardless if I'm heading for space or domination, but that might not work as well against the tougher deity AI? If I ever feel like playing more deity, I'll keep this in mind.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Cottages : the land is green, and it makes it that much easier to build some.
Then again, I'm sure I did build too many, at some point in the 1 AD - 500 AD timeline.

Here's the F1 screen from t122. I believe it should give us a LOT of insight @ city management.
You can look at whatever you want but, for the issue at hand, the relevant variables are : city size, food surplus, happy surplus. It's the combination of these three factors that tells whether or not a city has enough food output.

Spoiler :

[Nottingham is just waiting 1 turn to whip (@ wealth).]
There are 2 extra garrison units in Canterbury, so the actual happy margin is +5. This is a sign that the city should have at least 1 extra farm.
It's doing +6 food/turn, which... isn't a whole lot. Being size 5 it needs 15 food to grow, so that takes 3 turns.
A city that wants to be good pump (whip) should aim to grow a size every 2 turns. 3 is a maximum.
Then, Canterbury is a river, commerce city that I want to develop to a really high size.
Considering all of this, a food surplus of 8-9 would be a lot more appropriate. It would let the city actually use its happy margin and then it would let it invest into its infrastructure.

That said, looking at it right now, Canterbury is the exception, here.
Other cities have that 1-2 happy margin, which means their happiness is used up. Therefore, they do not need any additional food.
In a more long term perspective, with its +8 food surplus, Hastings is my only really healthy, mainland, medium sized city. Say you grow a city to size 10, it needs 20 food to grow another size : you'd want at least 7 food surplus, right ? Probably more. (Then again, this is always dependent upon your happy cap margin.)

To be entirely fair, Coventry doesn't have a garrison unit (+2 happies). Getting the unit and then getting some extra food surplus (costly process : warriors aren't available anymore) would benefit the city.

So, I didn't capture any wonders from Willem but, what I did get my hands on is : a wide variety of happy resources.
And that's very important. At this point, I think I've only claimed Dyes. But there's also Wine and Spices. I'm soon to unlock the gems as well.

--> Secure happies then increase the food surplus.

At this point, another relevant screen is the resource trades screen :

Spoiler :

I am cramped for trades. I don't have a single resource over Mansa.
This fact should put in perspective the settlers that I am building.
The settler for the gems cluster gives me instant happiness and trade opportunities. 2 settlers are being built in the north :
- one will claim a 2x fish island (+10 food city eventually) ;
- the other claims a 1x crab island (rare resources = trade opportunity).

A word could be said about workforce.
If you're growing a city, you need a sufficient worker count to improve tiles as it grows.
If you're whipping it, you can do with fewer workers.
If you're clearing up jungle, well, that's what we do here : you both need more workers and have an incentive to whip (lets you wait on your tile improvements).

So...
1 garrison unit is lacking. I've got plenty, though. But I also suffer from some war weariness and something like 5 warriors are tied in London. Growing London takes priority over many things.
Canterbury, possibly Coventry, could do with more food.
Unlocking happiness is the biggest issue at this point.




ps : entirely a sidenote :
At this point, I had an acute sense that I lacked happiness but I didn't fully realize the food shortage that's been discussed.
More to the point, I was entirely aware that I would not be able to invade Willem --> Pericles as I originally wanted. Jewish Apostolic Palace makes it too difficult. Instead, I want to befriend the Jews.
--> This diplo situation contributes to explain why I'm building so little army at the moment. I don't need huge left overs that cost me and arm and a leg.

 

[intutama]

Writing in 2 turns. This is actually very neat. I have +40% research multipliers towards Writing (Pottery, AH) and 0% towards Mysticism (no pre-requisite) :
Next turn, I'll need about 1 beaker to complete Writing and the overflow beakers, as far as I know, will retain the research multiplier. I'll be getting a 3rd of Mysticism on the cheap.

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if it has been cleared before, but yesterday I tried using this trick and from my tests the behavior is as follow:
- The invisible +1 BpT (which is the reason why you can't get 0 BpT) is added before multiplication, so an indicated 9 BpT (in the top left hand corner in CIV IV BUG) is in fact 10 BpT, when boosted with +20% will become 12 beakers.
- OF from non-boosted to boosted tech -> the OF is boosted
- OF from boosted tech to non-boosted -> the OF is limited to your indicated BpT on completion turn (the rest is lost).
- The OF is multiplied when working the new tech, so when completing a pre-requisite tech into a following tech the OF on turn X will be boosted on turn X+1

Examples from the beginning of the game with an indicated 9 BpT:
Completing Fishing(+0%) into AH(+40%) with 10b OF results in 14b in AH.
Completing AH(+40%) into Wheel(+0%) with 13b OF results in 9b in Wheel -> because we have 9BpT on completion turn, 4 OF beakers are lost.

So to optimize beaker production is seems like you should maximize OF from non-boosted into boosted, and limit the OF to your BpT when completing boosted techs.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ Interesting, thanks.
So it doesn't matter, really.
It works just like overflow hammers : they're computed back into base hammers at the end of any build and, then, the relevant multipliers are applied.

 

[sampsa]

So to optimize beaker production is seems like you should maximize OF from non-boosted into boosted, and limit the OF to your BpT when completing boosted techs.

If I understood the previous sentences correctly, I think this conclusion is wrong. IMO the correct conclusion is that it doesn't matter, since the amount of put into a tech remains exactly the same notwithstanding if there is, was, or will be overflow. Exactly the same as with .