Just a random map

[Pedro78]

Idk about the cuirs vs maces thing, really has to be tested out imo. With that capital I also like early Oxford, a shame there is no stone - with stone it would be nps to get it up in the BCs.

MT is not needed to launch a spaceship, and it's a big diversion on the way to corps or SP, so cuirs are always questionable in a space game. Especially using lib to get them.

Gotta disagree with that
In this case MT is trade bait as anything else, can be traded for PP with Mansa. Same with Nationalism, can probably get Guilds and stuff from it -- on this map the AIs will still be useful for trading in the renaissance era, especially Mansa. The opportunity cost of lib'ing MT is low: if you don't lib MT you're going to lib Communism, which is "only" 1400 beakers more. And I'd much rather expand sooner and be a little bit behind in tech, as I'll be doing 5000-8000 bpt much sooner. I think conquering faster is better, even if a Cuirs war is pretty expensive.

 

[elitetroops]

Gotta disagree with that
In this case MT is trade bait as anything else, can be traded for PP with Mansa. Same with Nationalism, can probably get Guilds and stuff from it -- on this map the AIs will still be useful for trading in the renaissance era, especially Mansa.

Well, I said "questionable", not "absolute no-no". I'm sure it can be motivated in some situations, but you should always ask yourself if there would be any means to the same goal that don't require the diversion. Trading for stuff is nice, but other techs can be traded as well, so it's not like MT has an advantage over anything else in that sense. Playing England makes maces even more attractive btw., because they upgrade to Redcoats.

On any difficulty below Deity I'd say using cuirs in a space game is quite strictly bad. Most of the wars should be fought before that.

 

[Pedro78]

Trading for stuff is nice, but other techs can be traded as well, so it's not like MT has an advantage over anything else in that sense.

That's true. Might have to feed the AIs some techs so they actually research something useful, coupling that with taking them all out with cuirs is tricky for sure.

Playing England makes maces even more attractive btw., because they upgrade to Redcoats.

Humm. On this map I cannot figure how this can come into play. Rifling is a dead-end tech and even more expensive than MT. At the point in the game where you reach Rifling you will be in full expansion mode and will need every bit of gold for research. Mace-Rifle upgrade is 140g, which is extremely expensive considering all the research multipliers you'll have at this point (Oxford etc.). Don't forget you have to research Communism and AL at the same time that you're expanding. Of course that is assuming you're playing for space.. but hey, if you're playing for conquest Cuirs are superior anyway

 

[Fippy]

I think Edu is really good with Phi for space, even with no stone yet for Ox (or maybe there's one to grab from AIs soon? Cannot remember). With Mansa at 12 cities there might not be that much time to delay Lib here.

Maybe taking steel can become an option too, iirc chemistry can be bulbed again after Edu is done?
While cannons are not known for their speed, they are known for being very efficient

 

[Rusten]

Mace+treb --> add in knights later --> add in cannons later = hardly any losses.

And concerning the game at hand: trading for CS and possibly even machinery! That's huge!

 

[gaash2]

@Pedro78 Rifling a dead end tech? How so ?

 

[Fippy]

Time for me to return some compliments
Very motivating way of reporting, makes it always fun to look in and comment.

Oh i was assuming space too lol.
For that, it's easy to see why Pedro has some focus on SP (sometimes it's corps, but more on bigger maps i guess where there are so many resis). Makes every city powerful, without starting on new cottages or so and yup you can then have them miles away and it's still +.

 

[Pedro78]

Mace+treb --> add in knights later --> add in cannons later = hardly any losses.

Also means very slow conquest imo. Anyway we'll see, if I'm wrong at least I'll have learned something

@Pedro78 Rifling a dead end tech? How so ?

Pretty obvious, Rifling only leads to Artillery and Rocketry. Which means you have plenty of time to trade for it if you're going for Space: you want Communism, AL and Superconductors fir

I do not really understand Pedro's focus on Communism (?). Maintenance cuts ? That would fit a full out Conquest / Dom strategy on this map, wouldn't it ? I don't know, I've often gotten Biology before Communism, so the value you place on the tech is not obvious to me.

Communism is an instant -200gpt in maintenance when you have a lot of cities (esp. when they don't have a CH yet, allows to skip CHs aswell). Sci Meth+Communism=~8800 beakers which isn't that much and by the time you get it you'll still be conquering and won't be able to start on factories yet. And SP gives you really nice tiles to work (the tricky part is finding the sweet spot to switch of Slavery. Then I would get AL before Biology assuming that I cannot trade for AL. Only in a Conquest game I would rather go SciMeth-Physics for AIrships+Cavs in this kind of game.
I assumed that you were playig space lol. What kind of victory are you planning then?

All my reasonning behind Cuirs vs Siege is based on fast expansion. In my previous space game I deeply regreted not building more workers/settling the new world faster (was a Terra map). The cost of building 30 more workers (had 50) is huge in the short term, but would have been very beneficial in the long term. To me going cuirs over siege is exactly like building more workers: faster expansion.

Very motivating way of reporting, makes it always fun to look in and comment.

Totally agree with that

 

[elitetroops]

Rifling only leads to Artillery and Rocketry. Which means you have plenty of time to trade for it if you're going for Space: you want Communism, AL and Superconductors fir

Superconductors first? Are you picking it up through Refrigeration (yet another extra tech that isn't needed to launch your spaceship)? I prefer Superconductors through Computers, which means Rocketry comes earlier, or Apollo would come too late. Labs are not good enough to make teching Refrigeration worth it.

Another thing to consider in the cuirs vs siege debate is that this is a Big&Small map with lots of islands. Cuirs lose their movement advantage when doing naval invasions. Bringing reinforcements is also a lot more complicated with naval invasions, so the longevity of siege stacks becomes even more valuable. If a fleet is built for conquering islands, then that same fleet can also be used to greatly speed up siege warfare on the main continent.

 

[Rusten]

Mansa always allows for different tech trading. You just avoid whichever path he takes because being able to instantly trade is so strong.
But it can also be a frustrating experience. In my game he did not research CS or Machinery but went for Music and Compass instead, which was a little unfortunate.

 

[Fippy]

Looks like your tech trading goes really well, those smaller techs were of great help ~~

Hmm longbows on hills are tough for cat wars,
Maastricht with a couple units would be an option imo if it's weakly defended, as you can reach it on turn 1.

 

[Pedro78]

@elitetroops Yup superconductors first (through Computers), at least in this kind of game. In the endgame you'll be doing 1-2 turns per tech so you really need that production boost to launch ASAP after research is complete. It does require to build Apollo pretty fast though (3-4 turns), need IW city ready with 20 workshops and some stacked OF.

Another thing to consider in the cuirs vs siege debate is that this is a Big&Small map with lots of islands.

In this case it's a low sea level map with islands not mixed in. This means SP and no corps (imo), and does also mean that islands are not important and not worth building a navy to conquer. But on another type of map this would definitely be a strong argument.

You mentioned the Oxford University. I think that may be an area where the Mace war has the advantage as well, over Cuirassiers.
If you can start conquering the first few cities earlier, it could very well give you a better choice when picking locations for Universities.
I think I have 4 good cities for Universities at the moment. Not more. It's possible that cities 5 and 6 should be Dutch.

Interesting. I have little experience with Oxford but it's a PITA to determine when it's better to build it. But you shouldn't even consider building it if not going for space imo, research won't be a bottleneck. The only need I see for early Oxford here is to help reach Communism/AL faster if going for Space.

Victory is overrated : you just play a game, wind up in a winning position and wrap it up as you can

You have to chose your victory very early if you want an optimal finish date. Here your game is already in a winning position, it was in a winning position on T0. IMO with the effort you're putting into this game it would be a shame to get a "mediocre" win date, whatever the VC you fulfill

 

[Rusten]

I can empathise, and that's why I usually prefer Space VC, because it includes all the different facets of the game.

 

[Pedro78]

Yes, you're right, sure

I hope you're not upset here, was just expressing my point of view, no contempt whatsoever

That said, I doubt this is a map you can plow through with Cuirassiers and Cavalry only.

I'm pretty sure you can get the mainland with Cuirs alone (no cavs) because you can get them so early, can kill every mainland AI pre-grenadiers I think. I might be wrong of course.

Finally, this is "Islands mixed in". It's just not "Tiny islands" but "Normal islands".

I mixed these up, never actually played with that map script

 

[elitetroops]

Apologies, BiC, for this space discussion derail, it's just an interesting subject. But great game too, following with interest!

@elitetroops Yup superconductors first (through Computers), at least in this kind of game. In the endgame you'll be doing 1-2 turns per tech so you really need that production boost to launch ASAP after research is complete. It does require to build Apollo pretty fast though (3-4 turns), need IW city ready with 20 workshops and some stacked OF.

Sorry, but I don't understand your plan here. If you go Superconductors through Computers before Rocketry, then by the time you unlock Apollo, you need only 8 more techs. In a perfect game you'd want to launch in 9 turns. Spend 4 of those on Apollo and you have to build all of your spaceship within 5 turns (and any IW OF you had is already used for Apollo). Okay, if you have a city with 10+ forests that could 2 turn your Stasis Chamber, allowing earlier Composites, then maybe you could get close...

Don't get me wrong, if you actually have a credible plan that allows earlier Superconductors and earlier labs, then I'd be happy to hear it. The gain from earlier labs is quite minimal, but nevertheless it is a gain. My own current system (for State Property, normal speed) relies on having Apollo built no later than 1 turn after Superconductors is teched, then I need to start on Thrusters. I use massive overflow from Thrusters into Casings to have 5 cities build Casings in 2 turns. Life Support in 1 turn is usually no problem, so this allows immediate launch with the 2 last techs being Composites->Ecology. I've used this system successfully with the last 8 techs done in 11 turns. It should also work fine if they are done in 10 turns and with some tweaks if they are done in 9 turns. Base hammer requirement in space part cities vary between 67-80, depending on what they are building. If last 8 techs can be done in 8 turns, then some forests would be needed in all Thrusters->Casings cities and overall higher production is needed. Not inconceivable, it just would need a lot earlier planning. Still, I am aware that there are some deficiencies in my system and if you have a better one, please share.

 

[Rusten]

To follow up on my Carthage comment from earlier:

Spoiler :

No metal (or horses). Running around with nothing but archers until Feudalism and his cities are not even on hills.

 

[Pedro78]

@elitetroops
Your plan is interesting, especially with smaller empires. But you rely on 5 2T casings? I'm a bit lost here. What massive overflow are you talking about? Especially in a city with less than 80 base hammers that seems like a lot, especially if you build thrusters first. Of course it gives you more time to build engines and stasis chamber, which is good but I'd be interested to know how you exactly get 5 2T casings

What I plan to do:

• Superconductors-Rocketry-Satellites-Composites-Fiber Optics-Fusion-Genetics-Ecology
• LS can be chopped in 1T
• IW city can do Apollo + 2T stasis chamber with OF from lab (esp. in a golden age)
• If you tech genetics in 2T this leaves 2 4T engines, can use 2 cities with levees+20 workshops (one of which is bureau cap), use full OF from lab
• If you tech genetics in 1T it's much harder and requires some saved forests, have to think carefully
• Build Casings and Thrusters and cockpit in 11 different cities, that's not much of an issue
• Have plenty of time for the docking bay aswell (only need ~80 base hammers)

Did this in my last space game, launched 2T after tech complete because I didn't save forests for the LS. Could have launched at T+1 pretty easily. It also gives you time to prepare OF from labs which is pretty useful.

Now if you can explain me how you get all these 2T casings I will happily agree that your strategy is just as good if not better.

 

[elitetroops]

This discussion has made me re-evaluate the whole strategy. After writing my last post, I also realized that 2T stasis chamber shouldn't be much of a problem. There are plenty of ways to do it. Saving IW city with good OF for that, for example, or on a Terra map you could even do some fancy trick like building Palace with max OF in a new world city with 7-8 forests and relatively modest base production.

2T casings have some downsides. Depending on production in the city, it can either be done by completing lab and thruster with max OF on consecutive turns (requires 84 base hammers), or by completing a 3rd build first with OF into lab (requires 72 or 76 base hammers, depending on how fast you tech). 84 is strictly better and quite easy to achieve. Didn't realize this in my previous games and did that extra unnecessary build in some cities. But now I realized that if I have 5 cities with 84 hammers, they could also just build lab in 1 turn with some OF, then 4 turn Thruster and 4 turn Casing, if I do 2T Stasis Chamber. That's a lot better. Will aim for that next time.

In your plan I'm a bit skeptical about those 4T engines. If no bureau or IW bonus, you need 125 base hammers, assuming max OF from lab. That's >6/tile in a 20 pop city. Such a river spot is not always available (needs to be available early enough to grow to pop 20). You'd also need 105 base production in cap, which probably should be possible just about anywhere, but requires a ton of worker turns. I'd do Fusion before Composites for 6T engines and 4T casings. Much easier to manage.

Anyway, this really has nothing to do with the original question, Rocketry or Superconductors first. I'm still strongly of the opinion that Rocketry first is better. No matter what, you'll need both Rocketry and Superconductors before you start building your first Space part. Depending on which you tech first, in the time it takes you to tech the last 8 techs you have to either build labs and space parts, or Apollo and space parts. Labs can be built faster than Apollo, which leaves more time for the spaceship, allowing you more options.

 

[Pedro78]

It's not THAT hard to get 125 hammers, but indeed not always possible. And if you end up researching 1 tech per turn you're screwed. Fusion before Composites does indeed look good. After thinking a little, I'm pretty sure that Rocketry first is better, not sure why I had that obsession on Superconductors, was probably scared of messing up with the OF but it doesn't make sense...

Getting Fusion before Composites makes sense indeed. But in a perfect world where you're doing 1 tech per turn (not that hard with the help of bulbs) you still need these 4T engines.

Having 5 cities with 84 base hammers isn't easy (not counting IW, 2*Engine or docking bay), though. Don't forget that we're talking about pre-T190 superconductors. Techs will come extremely fast after you're done expanding and you need to grow fast enough while getting your infra up. (in my Terra game I didn't have them, even though I had 51 cities, was a little bit slow on growth)

 

[elitetroops]

But in a perfect world where you're doing 1 tech per turn (not that hard with the help of bulbs) you still need these 4T engines.

I'd do Fusion->Satellites->Composites->Medicine->Genetics->Ecology, which leaves 6 turns for Engines, unless you can trade for Medicine. Doing all techs in 1 turn is really not that easy. It's easy to get close, but squeezing the last couple of turns out requires a lot.

What kind of cities you have depend a lot on map type. Most of my space games I've played on Lake maps. With no real coastal cities, almost all cities have potential for 80+ hammers, as long as they are big enough (assuming golden age). On the other hand, rivers are quite rare, which makes the 125 hammer city a distant dream.