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just curious

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by DarkxL0rd, Mar 6, 2010.

  1. DarkxL0rd

    DarkxL0rd Warlord

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    I have always wondered why the Svart's casters were all illusionists. I guess I'm asking, what decision came up that the team said hey, "lets take this civ and nerf their magic." I mean, their elves. i understand nerfing the dwarven nations as historically all dwarves from all walks of fantasy have an innate resistance to magic. And I also understand that it is good for XP farming for assassins, as I myself have suggested in many tactic threads, though really tbh, it's not too great as the points earned are rarely more than one..

    The only real advantages I see that the dark elves have over the wood elves is their hero and sinister trait. everything else from palace magic, world spell, and leader selection seems to favor the wood elves. Does anyone have any answers for me?
     
  2. tesb

    tesb Emperor

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    illusions are great, with them you can gain much more expierence then with normal summons. also while defending they can kill and will heal themselves making them much better defenders then normal summons.
     
  3. OJimiJam

    OJimiJam Warlord

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    Just dont use the summoning part of the magic tree. Svarts are my favourite civ, but i use their magic for buffs (poisoned blade, haste, regen, blur, shadowalk, rust etc) and direct damage (maelstrom) a lot more than for summons. You can use summons if you want, and they work well if you have a couple of blitz assasins (not hard to do, alkazan + aerons chosen + a few others) and you can still rip through stacks.
     
  4. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

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    The illusionary units are only weaker if you can't kill the units the summoned units would have killed. With good planning you can avoid that by using more troops and assassins, wiping out everything the illusions attacked later in the turn, thus making your illusions a straight advantage.

    It isn't just assassins that benefit from illusions. You can train up weak troops and use priests with command to capture units, for example.
     
  5. DarkxL0rd

    DarkxL0rd Warlord

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    Believe me, I know all the pros for illusions. I was just wondering why it was implemented. body, nature, entropy, air and life are certainly the nodes i build. The reason I'm asking is because recently the AIs have been creating stacks in the 400+. and I just can't afford enough units to knock out a big enough chunk each turn. My Assassins have their hands full and I cant kill enough units a turn, and even when I can, the WW gets ridiculous pretty quick. My SoD usually consists of all my nationals, 30-40 assassins(promo'd like a mother mind you), 25-35 mages and a handfull of satyrs and priests and such. It would just be nice if the magic dept were packing more of a punch, especially since I am denied siege.
     
  6. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    I think your best bet would be tricking them into attacking an Alazkan illusion. Those things can eat whole stacks.

    Theres no real way to balance fighting against stacks of 400. The CPUs aren't even playing the same game by that point.
     
  7. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    I dunno, the Svart get pretty sickly powerful once you get theology, I've dominated myself up many an army. I love playing Order Svart just to squeeze out that last +20% conversion rate. Add the Baron into the mix and and remember that ravious werewolves go for weak units, get a free attack if they promote, and get a chance of creating yet another werewolf and you have the setup for the perfect werewolf army. I know I've seen a baron attack kill 3-4 units in a move via werewolf spawning and upgrading.

    I dunno if the religious powerhouse is thematic but nobody does werewolves like the svart. They can create a very big army for very few hammers.
     
  8. DarkxL0rd

    DarkxL0rd Warlord

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    I do indeed love getting the baron, but I usually stay FoL because my cities get too big and I need the Happys and healthys from GoN to keep my cities in OVERDRIVE POWER mode. I think Senethro is right though. when the stacks get that big, it's a different game. the only way I manage is to totally "cheat" using Nox Noctics tactics. I know it's legal, but I still feel like I'm cheating. I believe the Svarts synergize better than any other civ with NN. near mid-late game, i usually have 8-9 blitz assassins that just chew through most everything, and I don't have to worry about return attacks.
     
  9. Aline

    Aline Cat

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    Offtopic noob question:

    How do you kill a 400+ SoD??
     
  10. tesb

    tesb Emperor

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    depends on the units in the stack, what often works are some units with sunII and some assasins ;) and a lot of turns :)

    if there are undeads brings lifeII along
     
  11. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

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    You can kill a big stack by luring it into a bad position and killing it with magic, essentially. An area effect damage spell will harm every unit. A spell like wither will also reduce the strength of all the living units. Charm person will make most of them peaceful for a few turns and give you time to cause trouble. A few other spells will immobilize many of them. While the stack is in disarray you use assassins to chop away at the bottom, usually killing the catapults and mages. Without any way to take down late game defences, at low health, with bad status effects, the rest of the stack can melt away attacking a well fortified city.

    Plenty of alternative magic is available. You can probably do it much more easily with pyre zombies :)
     
  12. DarkxL0rd

    DarkxL0rd Warlord

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    With enough assassins you can take out the siege/mages/assassins and with a maelstrom or 2 you can really cripple the rest of the stack. from there, its a cat and mouse game where you make sure you end every turn on a forested hill or in a nicely defended city. Oh and one thing I did last game, was, with a civ that spams tigers, just bring 2-3 satyrs with charm animal, take them all and delete them so there's no war weariness. worked very nicely.
     
  13. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    If they are all undead units, 3 Life II mages casting Destroy undead should suffice. Otherwise is it more tricky.
     
  14. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    I like FOL'ing my core territories and then going for Social Order Elves, they don't usually have serious health issues cause of all the little +'s from forests. If Hyborem actually gets a foothold they get to keep their forests too :)
     
  15. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

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    There is always Auric Ascended! In my last game, the three priests of winter and Auric took down a 900+ SoD, they killed about 500 units the first trun and the rest the second turn.

    If you aren't the illians, though ....


    Best wishes,

    Breunor
     
  16. Aline

    Aline Cat

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    Interesting, i only got to noble so far and i rarely see a SoD that huge.
    I came up with a strategy for Keelyn, i used 4 arcmages with mind 3 and Gibbon, they cast puppets and they cast domination, if it fails, the puppets loose it the originals not.
    With Keelyns summoner trait i allways have 10 puppes, so its basicly 5-10 domination spells per turn, i never realy used siege stuff as there usualy isent anyone left to defend the citys, guess it could also work against SoD´s.
     
  17. Iskar Jarak

    Iskar Jarak Chieftain

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    One way to deal with Sods is to go around them. One game I was playing as the Scions, the Elohim sent there sods through Ljosalfar lands to get to me, I just went around and attacked their cities, wiped them out before they ever got anywhere.
     
  18. TheGreatSteve

    TheGreatSteve Warlord

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    For the more evil players, a cheap alternative for dealing with huge SoD's without using any of that sissy sun magic.

    Figure out who of your big guys is least likely to defend. Promote them with Fear. Hit the SoD with AoE, Wither's a favorite. Park your group next to them on the most defensible point.

    They'll attack, your guys will defend. As each of your troops is wounded he'll drop in the priority list for defending. When your troops are almost all wounded and the odds are about to start getting less in your favor, the guy with Fear will get to the top, and the rest of the stack will cower at the sight of him:lol:

    And for an additional spot of fun, Defensive Strikes seem to take place before the Fear check.:devil:
     
  19. DarkxL0rd

    DarkxL0rd Warlord

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    How do you promote with fear?
     
  20. a_civilian

    a_civilian Warlord

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    Check the civilopedia. If I recall correctly only demons and undead can promote fear.
     

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