Just For Fun: Oracle --> Education Slingshot @ Emperor

[Killroyan]

Impressive is all I can say. Even if it is situational this is incredible to get education in 950 BC If I am not mistaken entering a new era also gives you a discount on all the other older technologies so this is actually quite a bonus. Now if you can expand from that point to a good empire you are set if you ask me. You just need a settler pump in your second city.

 

[Gliese 581]

The thing is you don't need Education at 950 bc. You're not likely to have 6 cities let alone cities developed enough to build universities even as philosophical.
I see it more as a standalone gambit that you would do for fun, if you were using this strategy while playing to win that would be insane given the high risk of failure and the costs.

 

[Killroyan]

But imagine this in an OCC, then it would really give a headstart. University and Oxford before 1 AD.

 

[semirami]

But imagine this in an OCC, then it would really give a headstart. University and Oxford before 1 AD.

It's not really worth. +25% and +100%, but you must have something to multiply. It costs you 2 great persons. I prefer to have Representation+Academy+settled scientist.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

I see it more as a standalone gambit that you would do for fun, if you were using this strategy while playing to win that would be insane given the high risk of failure and the costs.

if you have a natural blocking position, or one achievable with 2 cities(sh does the 3rd border pop fast so you can actually make a blocking line of up to 10 tiles on one axis) it actually looks very interesting imho. Though I'd say it's high risk on emperor to lose oracle.

 

[carl corey]

Yeap, Emperor is the limit for this strategy, and it's probably a 50-50 chance that it will work. On the other hand, in my EMC II game the Pyramids weren't built by the time I took Nationalism from Liberalism. I'm not even sure they were built by the end of the last round (1100AD).

Given that the Madrassa wasn't really useful here and the Camel Archers aren't really on the path of the bulb, what would be other good civs or leaders to try this with? Keeping the unrestricted leaders option, of course. I can see going for this with Korea (for Seowons), Ethiopia (for the free Steles and Oromos) or the Native Americans (resourceless axeman for barb defense).

As for leaders, Lincoln could be great (Cha - happiness from monuments, Phi), Liz and Gandhi of course, Alex (Agg - cheap barracks + Combat I for melee + Theocracy could be cool) and Suleiman (Imp - spam settlers once the beeline's done). So pretty much anyone Philosophical except Fred (what's Org good for if you have a couple of cities?), Sitting Bull (Pro? meh) and Peter (I don't see Exp helping).

 

[semirami]

Suleiman for ultra early Jans. He can have Gunpowder before 1AD

- research CoL, bulb Phil, bulb Lib, take Gunpowder
- research Gunpowder directly

 

[Indiansmoke]

Suleiman for ultra early Jans. He can have Gunpowder before 1AD

- research CoL, bulb Phil, bulb Lib, take Gunpowder
- research Gunpowder directly

Gunpowder needs education or guilds

 

[troytheface]

very cool tactic pulled off there. appreciate the post.

 

[carl corey]

I guess he was talking about what happens after the beeline, which already gives you Education.

 

[JammerUno]

teching out gunpowder only takes 60 or so turns on epic after this gambit, since you'll have bulbed theo and paper and have math/alphabet, you can pretty much just tech it directly and backfill techs with trading.

It would be very possible to take out far larger empires with Jans. If you manage to get 5 cities by the time you can build them. The worst you'll encounter are LBs, so only a few could do the job (a supermedic would be great to maximise survival) remember, +25% vs. archer melee and mounted, add combatI+cover to some, drillI+schock to some and combatII+formation, and your stack would be untouchable to anything pre-knights, and even those would struggle to kill one.

 

[Joshua368]

Gunpowder can also be bulbed with another Great Scientist, if you get Aesthetics and Iron Working out of the way and don't research Code of Laws/Drama and open up Philosophy. (obviously you won't want to delay CoL for long, so you'll need to get the GS somewhat quickly) Won't completely bulb it, but should get most of it.

Musketmen versus longbows aren't that great... but if you can get some at an AI that doesn't have feudalism yet, you've got something there. They usually seem to pick it up around 300 - 500 AD in my games, so if you can build muskets in BC try to attack a civ that doesn't have monarchy yet.

And Janaissaries are something else altogether, those should just be awesome.

Edit: Also the early Gunpowder aspect of this thing was something I didn't even realize until like halfway through writing it, which is why my leader wasn't set to take advantage of that.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Musketmen versus longbows aren't that great...

I love having musketeers along with a late-medieval stack, but mostly as field combat units or terrain defenders. The city raiders are still the CR3 macemen, after trebs have done their work. Longbow, schmongbow...

Muskets also help in keeping a city after the macemen have taken it--I like having 1 or 2 CG2 musketeers for the 1st or 2nd city conquest when sometimes an AI has a retake stack built up specifically to demolish any stacks geared purely for offense (which are vulnerable in garrisoning a taken city otherwise).

 

[UWHabs]

Gunpowder can also be bulbed with another Great Scientist, if you get Aesthetics and Iron Working out of the way and don't research Code of Laws/Drama and open up Philosophy. (obviously you won't want to delay CoL for long, so you'll need to get the GS somewhat quickly) Won't completely bulb it, but should get most of it.

Musketmen versus longbows aren't that great... but if you can get some at an AI that doesn't have feudalism yet, you've got something there. They usually seem to pick it up around 300 - 500 AD in my games, so if you can build muskets in BC try to attack a civ that doesn't have monarchy yet.

And Janaissaries are something else altogether, those should just be awesome.

Edit: Also the early Gunpowder aspect of this thing was something I didn't even realize until like halfway through writing it, which is why my leader wasn't set to take advantage of that.

Not just jannisaries (which would totally rock), but anyone with a musket UU would do well. Even musketeer with their extra move would be useful, getting a strong, early 2 move unit.

 

[semirami]

@Josh,

If you get IW and block CoL, scientists will go to naval route. Sailing/Compass/Calendar/MC/Machinery/Optics/Astronomy. Just forget about bulbing Gunpowder, bulb Liberalism instead

@ UWH,

Yes, but Philosophical leader is mandatory. Of course, if you play unrestricted. something like Alex from Ethiopia, would rock too.


EDIT: Gunpowder bulb could work if you don't research Fishing and Pottery

 

[bestbrian]

What would be the optimal tech/bulb/trade path for early Gunpowder? That'd be pretty interesting.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What would be the optimal tech/bulb/trade path for early Gunpowder? That'd be pretty interesting.

Probably the education route/liberalism if you don't want to cripple yourself with esoteric bulb nonsense of the bottom path and want to rex a decent city count to actually do something with it. You can get down that way pretty fast, too.

 

[bestbrian]

Probably the education route/liberalism if you don't want to cripple yourself with esoteric bulb nonsense of the bottom path and want to rex a decent city count to actually do something with it. You can get down that way pretty fast, too.

That's along the lines that I was thinking. However, bulbing speeds this process along quite a bit. I, however, have a very poor grasp of the Tech Tree in regards to what is availible (and when) when bulbing (as an ex: Lib can be bulbed, as long as you don't tech Machinery, in which case you have to go through PP), and was wondering what the optimal route would be with bulbs mixed in, and with avoiding techs that would close off the quicker bulb paths.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The bottom path is pretty obnoxious.

With alpha/math and the pre-reqs for philosophy, you will bulb philo.

With paper available, it's hard NOT to have that as your option.

Education is a GS's #1 bulb priority. If you can research it, it will bulb.

As you mentioned, having metal casting/aesthetics (I think you need aesthetics IIRC) and not machinery will get you lib as a bulb.

So the requirements for bulbing toward lib aren't demanding at all! Just a couple scientists and basic research/trade. This is part of the reason it's popular---> free techs are powerful, lib itself is pretty good, and the path offers a lot of trade potential.

Gunpowder can of course be had instantly after that, if you so choose.

 

[huerfanista]

The english, greek, american, and native american civs all start with fishing, which really complicates the GS bulb path. They're some of the best philosophical leaders in the game, too.

I've played this strat a couple of times, and it's pretty easy to get edu with Liz by 700-900BC as long as the oracle doesn't fall before then. That said, I'd never use it in a "real" game unless the stars aligned just right. There are just too may compromises:

- it's a big gamble waiting that long for the oracle.
- I have yet to be able to find an AI willing to trade any of the needed early techs by the time I get alpha.
- you have to give up a lot to make it work (only 2 or 3 early cities, to keep the rate from tanking, giving up production/whipping in order to run scientists, etc).
- universities really don't get you very much at that point in time, and they are expensive to build.

That said, I'm considering using modifications of this path - in particular the bulbing aspect. I'd probably take CS from oracle, use the prophet to bulb theo, then bulb out paper/edu with GSs while backfilling MC/mach for early maces/xbows.