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Just some food for though i guess

Discussion in 'Fallout: The Rebirth Of Civilization' started by f0nx, Feb 24, 2007.

  1. f0nx

    f0nx Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
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    Having spent some time reading falloutvault and remembering about this mod I was inspired with a few ideas. By no means do I expect you to agree and or even implement them, just some food for thought between game designers.

    As far as I understand the current model is very much like normal civilization with changes appropriate to the setting of fallout. What I've envisioned is a step past that. My idea is to model the gameplay after the city states of ancient Greece given the autonomy of fallout cities and the lack of any overarching governmental authority.

    The following are my changes to the general gameplay mechanics that drive Civ3:

    World Map: First of all I think recreating the actual fallout world spanning all of the maps relevant to fallout cannon (for this document cannon is the contents of Fallout 1 & 2 as well as the Design Docs from Van Bruen). Having no experience in modding Civ3 I cant be sure if the following design ideas are freezable with a randomly generated map, however if they are than I see no reason to stick only to the Fallout cannon world map. Irregardless of the case the map should be populated with 2 types of cities;
    Faction: those under the direct control of the “civilizations” at the start of the game.
    Neutral: cities under no direct control, that include original cannon ones that are not part of any of the factions, and if need be additional non cannon cities that correspond to real world locations that were emitted from fallout for game logic. These play a very vital role in the game as they are a primary source for acquiring human capital (people) that fuel the different military styles of individual civilizations(though perhaps organizations would be a more appropriate word).

    Construction of new settlements: Those civilizations capable of creating cities should be restricted to doing so only on special marked “ruined city terrain”. I’m very doubtful that any of the fallout factions would be capable of outright construction given constraints of a post apocalyptic world, so it would only be logical that most new settlements or resettlements would happen in the ruins of the “old civilization” given the vast resources present in these locations.

    Resources and Strategic Locations: Not much change from civ, I’ve not yet considered what specific resources would exist within this universe, however there is a point I want to elaborate on. That is strategic locations I’m classifying them with resources since they pretty are one and the same. The only difference is that they are unique and based no fallout cannon and come in the forms of relevant locations, such as the Glow, Bloomfield Space Center and any other relevant abandoned cannon locations that can be deemed of strategic resource importance. Each location will provide the controlling faction with specific bonuses.


    Combat and Army Creation: Combat is pretty much the same as in civ. The only real change I propose is to make a more extensive use of the civ3 army feature (the leader pre-requisite would no longer apply). I have not yet figured out the specific units each faction will have available to them. That is a minor point right now, I’m more concerned with the actual acquisition of armies. I believe that neutral cities should be the primary resource for the acquisition of army man power. The Faction section of this design document explains the specific ways in which each civ acquires reinforcements from these cities.



    Up to now I’ve come up with 5 civilizations. Each civ has a unique playstyle that represents their ideologies, motivations and strategies based on fallout cannon.

    NCR - Expansionist and Agricultural
    Starting Assets: Shady (shady sands), Boneyard (LA), Maxons, Hub, Dayglow (The Glow area). *As a possible offset to NCR’s obvious asset advantage, the cities contained within its republic could possibly easily fall into discontent, possibly rebellion or outright cessation, this would create an additional layer of gameplay where the player not only has to manage the overall conflict but manage the internal pressures within their territories.
    Expansion: NCR has two primary means of expanding its territories. Military through annexation, although relatively easy to accomplish given their military it comes with the high chance of discontent. Voluntary, very much like a cultural over take in CIV3 where cities will request to join on their own behalf, however this cannot be “directly” controlled by the players (opens up a possibility for a propaganda bulding or unit that would expedite the process).

    BOS –Scientific and Religious
    Starting Assets: Lost Hills Bunker, Petersons Bunker and corresponding attached communities.
    Expansion: Since BOS is an elitist organization, it does not expand as fast as other organizations, nor does it require a huge infrastructure to sutain itself like NCR or the Khans. Their primary form of expansion is through offering “protection” to outlying communities through the creation of outposts. The Brotherhood can draft initiates from these communities to sustain and expand its ranks, however the process is much slower than that of any other faction.

    The Unity – Religious and Militaristic
    Starting Assets: Mariposa Military Base with a possible number of pre established religious centers or even a fully “converted” city.
    Expansion: Primarily done through the establishment of Religious Centers under their guise and doctrine of the CoC. This can be done in all neutral states. (possibly, their establishment causes these cities to slowly become transformed into Unity centers, much like the cultural city takeover in civ3. When a critical mass of converts is attained, the city succumbs to the control of the Unity allowing them to create an underground structure for the purposes of “cleansing”). Their religious centers also allow them to kidnap native populations, though at a constant risk of being discovered and driven out thus forfeiting their ability to take over a city. Finally, they can use their mutant army to raid neutral and enemy cities for human stock.

    Enclave – Militaristic and Scientific
    Starting Assets: Navarro possibly New Reno seeing that they already had pre a established presence in that city.
    Expansion: Although there is very little to go on in the fallout cannon my best guess would be that they would establish some form of interment camps out of neutral cities, enslaving the local population for their own purposes. Yet another possibility would be the employment of the un-opened vaults. **this is yet to be clarified, suggestions are of course welcome.**

    The Khans – Militaristic and Expansionist
    Starting Assets possibly a randomized camp ? I don’t believe they could have survived next to Shady Sands as it grew into NCR.
    Expansion: Once again no real cannon to go on, this is far from being fully worked out but right now I imagine them to be modeled after the Mongol Tribe (duh!). They expand by raiding neutral cities. From which they are able to conscript reinforcements. **as with the enclave this is yet to be clarified and expanded upon, suggestions are of course welcome.**

    This is all i have for now, still working stuff out in my head, but its always a start i guess, any comments suggestions critiques or whatever else you might wanna throw my way are welcome. Hope im not stepping on any ones toes by posting this.
     
  2. (O)ndatra

    (O)ndatra Warlord

    Joined:
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    Althrough I'm only betatester, i could say, that mach of this ideas are good, but I have some changes. First about civilizations: They are all already at mod, but I agree, that Enclave must be scientifical and not expansionist like in mod.Second cities on ruined places: What would you say about Enclave and robots, which build their cities not on ruines. And cities Den, Vault City, Shady Sands, Master military base, Hub wasnt founded on ruins, and I'm not count Tactics and Van Beren cities. But ruins cold give extra shields, commerce and food. Bad that neutral cities isn't realisable, but it good idea anyway. Good idea about armies, but it better named squad.
     
  3. f0nx

    f0nx Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5
    First of all thank you for taking the time to read the design and i really appreciate you taking the time to actually comment and question it, here are some clarifications on the points you raised.

    As far as your concerns about building new cities i think the problem is were looking at this game from two different perspectives. My design is not a direct civ simulation in the fallout universe. In fact its more of a scenario type of a game. So that you do not start ur civ from a small settlement and build it up and eventually come into conflict with other organizations or factions. Instead the player is dropped into a pre existing world that has been developed by the events of fallout 1, 2 and the design of van bruen. And picks up the reigns from there. Once aggain think of the greek city states annalogy, where the dif fallout factions represent the Greek city Leagues. In the mids of which exists a subset of neutral cities that are not directly involved in conflict. However these independent non allied cities are an obvious point of conflict for the various warring factions, their human capital and natural resources are an obvious point of interest for each side. The general design once aggain was not meant to simulate the start up, and growth of each involved side from their point of origin to a position of domminance, but rather a simulation of the existing conflict that plays out in the fallout universe.

    The inclusion of these neutral cities is meant to propell the story beyound what is contained in the cannon. More over given the scarcity of resources its alot more logical for the civ's to attempt to coerse an alligence out of neutral cities and benefit from their pre existing infrastructures rather than to expand the effort of starting up new communities from scrach. Aggain this is not as much a civ building simulation as it is an attempt at recreating the conditons of the conflict that now rages throughout the world of fallout.

    As far as far ur questions of civs and cities that were not found on ruins goes. Like i said before each of the factions has their unique goals and ideologies, and the gameplay refelects exactly that. You mention the enclave. They are a purely militaristic organization with a singule objective, total erradication of the surviors, than and only than will they undertake any conventional form of building or settlement expansion or settlement. Thus at this point in time their construction efforts are purely military in the forms of forts, forward bases of operations. Althoug there is very little to go on in the fallout cannon about their post fallout 2 state of affairs we can speculate that despite their defeat their goals would more than likeley remain the same. And the events of f2 would only adjust their methods of operation, thus i've immagined turning neutral city states into labour camps for their war effort.

    Robots do not currently exist as a faction in my design doccument, at this point in time i do not yet consider fallout tactics as a legitimate source on fallout, although im going to look into it a bit more and consider utlizing whatever does not contradict the recognized cannon.

    "Den, Vault City, Shady Sands, Master military base, Hub wasnt founded on ruins". Your'e right they werent found on ruins, but aggain, this leads back to the point i made before, this is not a civ building game in the fallout universe. This is the fallout universe uzing the civ game to portray the conflict between the various organizations around the time of van bruen.

    As far as the squad thing goes thats exactly what i've intended, though at this point i have to look into the feature more closely to see how it will best fit the fallout universe.
     
  4. flamescreen

    flamescreen Ancient Mariner

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    Don't have time to reply in full, but the Enclave, like was said is militaristic and malevolent in nature as the average person would see them, so Expansionist is a good trait for them. Scientific wouldn't portray them accurately, actually would be much better for BoS if they don't have it in this mod, as they're scientists, almost as much as soldiers.
    Scientific would make them more sympathetic, as opposed to FO2 in which they're more or less, scum of the Wastes. Of course one has to factor in playability and such, so in Civ3 it might be different than it was in RPG FO.
     
  5. f0nx

    f0nx Chieftain

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    hmph good point i suppose, really both could work, scientific well because of their advanced military research (robo dogs, fev tests, deathclaw experimetns ect) though i suppose expansionist works as well considering they're tying to kill everybody off and re-settle the land with their own people.
     
  6. SWalker

    SWalker Warlord

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    In CIV scientific tends to mean "advances quickly" (cheap science buildings + free techs). The Enclave is already avanced, but seems to rely on pre-war tech (that they never lost) rather than new ideas. It would seem to me that that would be better represented by extra techs or owning/producing more advanced units/buildings at the start of the scenario. BOS seem to be a better example of scientific because (appart from their PA) they put alot of work into recovering old science/tech. In the games it seems that early after the war the Enclave would be far more advanced than the BOS, but by the time of FO2 the BOS is definitly catching up.

    Similarly the Robots seem to be advanced rather than scientific.
     
  7. Slaughter

    Slaughter Initiate

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    You do have some interesting ideas, through I'm just a beta tester too. I think it's strange that some civs can just go and build lots of city in stupid desert area. Unlike me, they don't just build near rivers or place with ACTUAL FOOD. I think that when we implement raiders and the critter civ, we should put them on very central places and let them just go around destroying cities. That certainly could stop expansion. Maybe better than barbarians.

    I mean, Raiders kill, pillage and destroy cities and villages all the year. I think we could use them to... well... STOP expansion a little. Have you guys any idea of how NCR ridicuslouisly expands? They're gigant in my lastest game.
     
  8. (O)ndatra

    (O)ndatra Warlord

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    OK, lets see. Enclave must be scientifical, because they more advanced that pre-war USA. And they put a lot of new technologies, like Vertibirds, Advanced Power Armor, etc, when Brotherhood, when reached tech-level of pre-war USA stopped (look at BOS at FO1 and FO2. Nothing changed in tech level, altrogh 80 years passed, but I think brotherhood must be scientifical too). And they musn't be expansionist, because in mod this means better goody hut results, and with their xenophobic and hatred to other world, they couldn't get goods from other people.
    Robots must be scientifical, because they get advanced more, then pre-war robots. Look at robots at FO2 and FOT. You can see, that Calculator create more advanced bots then was on Sierra. Also I want to say, that her is ability to make, at least, 16 independant cities. And last:I'm think too that it is scenario game, but in my opinion my advices creates more atmosphere of this game.
     

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