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K-Mod Vs Civ 4 BtS.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Olafeson, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Budapest
    Hey just a quick post. Maybe someone interested in sharing their opinion. Feel free to rant about what you hate about Civ 4.

    Have read the changelog, played a couple of games with K-Mod. Feels great, finally a breath of fresh air. Finally some of the soooo annoying things fixed. Just on paper K-Mod sounds like Civ 4 should have been. But all forum games i ever took part in are on BtS vanilla.
    Would it not be cool, if some forum games were on K-Mod? New experience for everyone!

    Of course i dont really understand how the A.I. works at all now, that was a reason for me to play more civ 4 BtS. Afraid of the new. Civ 4 was already complex and still is, so hard to learn everything from scratch.

    Civ 4 community is rather small, old game, old players, old habits i guess. For example i also play LoL ( League of Legends) which is constantly changed and balanced, which i like.


    :crazyeye:Spoiler : Unnecessary rant is following. Personal opinion. Just read if you want.:crazyeye:


    How often have i played Civ 4 and thought to myself:

    -Why is the religious tree so unplayable? It would be so cool to found your own religion and
    maybe get a early GP (e.g with hatshes obelisk) but you can t even get a religion and it makes worker useless.

    -Why do you get the Great Spy, Great Merchant, Great Scientist and especially the great Engineer (worst decision EVER) like so late into the game they barely matter. Feels like only GA and GM are worth even considering. The ones from Music, Physics etc.

    - Why are some wonders so OP (Great Library i look at you) while they made others soooo USELESS (Pentagon i look at you, or the chicken pizza, man i need to get some pizza now)

    - Why you need iron and horses for e.g. Knights while you don t need resources for rifleman and Infantry etc. Destroy enemies metal early game, he is Moderator Action: snip can only build archers and warriors. Pillage his strategic ressource later? Meh he doesnt Moderator Action: snip just contiunes to produce rifles/infantry every turn. They should need also like 2 resources (e.g metal / oil).

    -Also incense, fur, wales etc. so bad compared to iron, pigs, gold or corn. (The tile itself)
    And finally useless lumbermills, bad watermills, bad windmills. The upgrades to these come so late, that they are useless early game when it counts.

    - K-Mod has fixed a lot of these stuff, i really like the balance changes, would it not be possible to keep the game mechanics of Civ 4 and just make these balange changes to the tech tree?

    Moderator Action: Edited thread title to conform with forum rules and moved thread to General Discussion, also please mind your language --Noble Zarkon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2018
  2. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter

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    You can play any Mod you want with Nobles Club.
     
  3. f1rpo

    f1rpo plastics

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    Rebalance the Realms has more comprehensive balance changes than K-Mod and doesn't change the AI. It's aimed at multiplayer though, and doesn't have any of K-Mod's small UI, AI and performance improvements. Looks like one would even have to merge the BUG mod manually.

    What's so alienating about the K-Mod AI though? I realize that it declares war more often than the BtS AI does and brings more units; is it just that?

    Regarding early religions, I think an AI change would be the best remedy. The AI shouldn't found a religion until it needs extra happiness in its capital or extra culture in its second city. If the AI didn't rush to found religions (to its own disadvantage), it wouldn't be so costly for humans to get an early religion.
     
  4. Fippy

    Fippy Warrior Queen

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    From my test (on deity) i would say that K-Mod AIs can actually be weaker, they teched very slow compared to normal deity AIs which makes them more annoying later but not more dangerous.
     
  5. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    K-mod is nice, but to echo Fippy’s comment, while the K-mod AI is less vulnerable to tricks and player manipulations that work in base BtS, it seems vulnerable in other ways.

    As for your rant, well, it’s a rant. YMMV. But if watermills/windmills were great in the early game, nobody would build cottages/mines. And if they weren’t great in the late game, they wouldn’t be a consideration over Towns/Workshops. As for your GP rant, the scarcity of GE’s in the early game makes it worth building certain wonders just to give you a shot at a GE. And it’s trivially easy to get a GSpy early with Great Wall, by the way.

    If every military unit needed a strategic resource and all resources had similar yields, the game would be pretty boring IMO (if you started a game without metals or Horses, you’d restart by the time you hit Animal Husbandry/Iron Working). And the whole point of Incense, Fur and Whales isn’t the tile yield, it’s the :) bonus and being able to trade them around for :gold:

    But hey, that’s the great thing about Civ4 – if you don’t like certain aspects of the game, you can mod it. Personally 95% of my games are LoR, these days.
     
  6. salty mud

    salty mud Ey-up

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    I don't wish to sound brash, but maybe you're just playing the game wrong. Some of your rants have worth, many others don't.

    Great People can and do come early. You can get Great Scientists very quickly by researching writing and building some libraries. You can get Great Engineers from The Pyramids or forges. Great Artists are actually one of the least favourable Great People to receive.
    Some wonders are objectively better than others, but most are situational. If you're surrounded by Montezuma, Napoléon and Shaka, you may be glad of Chichen Itza. Great Library is good, but I wouldn't call it gamebreaking, and you have to research a poor tech to get to it.
    windmills especially can be useful for adding food and commerce to a hilly city.
     
  7. unas876

    unas876 Chieftain

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    Well tbh if you look for example at the religious path: I don't think the devs intended everyone to learn the game and play it only on the highest levels where religion isn't worth going for. On the lower levels though I'm sure you can pull all sorts of crazy stuff with it. And that's the case with many things in Civ, especially buildings. Yeah you might not wanna build markets (except bureau cap) everywhere on Deity but maybe you do want to do that if you're playing for a time victory on Noble.

    As for the K-Mod, from what I've seen I can only echo what others have said: it improves some things but messes up others.
     
  8. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Well @6K Man,

    there are other ways to win excpt domination. If you do not have iron, copper, horses or ivory. You can still trade (maybe even Gold/Turn) for those stratregic resources. Or you try to go for culture or diplo wins. They could add like 1-2 new strategic resources (e.g. sulfur) that enables gunpowder units. Gun powder also was made of coal, sulfur and KNO3. For example coal is already in the game. This could also be a ressource needed for early gunpowder units like musketman, canons and rifleman.

    Of course in this case, steam engine tech would be too late to reveal this resourc, should be earlier tech for example gunpowder tech itself. From my point of view (both game mechaniely wise and also historical accurate), it does not really make much sense you need copper/iron for a mere spear or axeman, and you need nothing for e.g a rifleman or infantry, who is equipped with a weapon made out of steel/iron and shoots metal bullets with high velocity (which requires gunpowder). Lategame wars vs A.I. that has same amount of cities or even more than you is very very tedious on higher difficulty. Only way to win is most often to nuke them. Which i dont really like, it feels cheesy.

    Also i would like to see pillaging and destroying other strategic resources havig a bigger impact on the game. Maybe in a very early war, you pillage cottages for some extra cash. At turn 200 you dont really care too much about +15 gold and it never feels like you hurt your enemy when you pillage his stuff. Only when you capture cities. On the other hand, if A.I. pillages your stuff, it does hurt A LOT.

    Also it wouldnt hurt if for example the GE you get from nuclear fusion tech, could come maybe a bit earlier. Not when the game is over already since 50 turns (in most cases).

    @f1rpo ,

    well i guess you made a valid point there, A.I. really shouldnt focus on getting early religions ASAP. But then still you can t really afford to play religious path when
    you play on emperor or above difficulty. Because you dont unlock worker improvement techs.
    I feel its a bit of a shame, because when i started the game long ago, i looked at the tech tree and it made sense to me that there are 3 branches.

    Top path to writing = tech path
    middle patch to monarchy /monotheism = religious path
    bottom path to IW and MC = military path


    On noble difficulty you could also play a religious game, founding a religion and switch an A.I. to your religion, getting an ally and maybe even building a shrine. Not really possible on high difficulty. It limits your choice of gameplay quite a lot. Maybe even build the A.P.

    And sometimes i think to myself, lumbermills MUST come earlier and be better from the start, or otherwise they can t compete at any difficulty or scenario with chopping and the hammer boost of free 20 - 30 (with math) hammers. Same for watermills and windmills. watermills should maybe start with +2 hammers instead of one and also windmills could be a bit better, maybe they could get hammer or commerce boost with guilds

    Regarding weaker strategic resources like incense/ whales and fur. Of course you gain profit regarding extra happy cap or maybe a good trade. But compare that to the ENOURMOUS boost, early corn or pigs or rice or wheat do give you. Some civs even start with agriculture, so its bascially free. While you need quite the time and effort to research optics or calendar, for a garbage tile.

    Of course that is a sideeffect of food is king, granaries and slavery are too strong in vanilla BtS.

    And tbh. you wouldnt even build chicken pizza when surrounded by shaka, monty, catherine, JC, Napoleon and the devil himself:devil:. If they attack you, you are in trouble anyway. Same goes for a lot of wonders like the colossus, hanging gardens, west points, statue of liberty etc.
     
  9. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Also the Upgrades for military units, you unlock at militry science, commando (can use enemy roads). would be cool somehow to get that into the game.
    Maybe also earlier maybe at construction. Or it does not even need the tech. Never made sense to me that your artillery can only move 1 tile or your tanks can only move 2 on enemy territory. I mean your warrior with not even shoes on his feet can move 1 tile. while your scout with tiny leather sandals can move 2, same distance as a tank fueled with oil and the power of 1500 horses. would also unlock more possible strategies and manouvers while at war.

    Of course this is a balance rant, and you could apply that to every game. There are pople out there who could mod that or already did, i unfortunately can t mod at all.
     
  10. Fizz'l

    Fizz'l Chieftain

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    Earlier civ (maybe 3) had saltpeter as a resource for muskets (and riflemen ?). Not sure why they removed it in civ 4. Maybe too many people rage quit if they didn't get it?
     
    Olafeson likes this.
  11. f1rpo

    f1rpo plastics

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    I found this post arguing against niter as a resource in Civ 6 quite convincing. That's just the historical side of course.
    I agree that it's a shame. Considering how complex Civ 4 is, the game could have a lot more depth (even more, that is). And no, AI changes wouldn't be enough to make religions worthwhile, but I see this as a nice example how smarter AI decisions can also help improve the game balance. Naturally, AI changes can have the opposite effect too, e.g. if the AI were to trade technologies rationally.
    Watermills and Lumbermills also take a lot of turns to build for no apparent reason.
    I've been wondering if the Civ 4 designers took into account that each additional worked tile costs 2 food (and some fraction of 1 commerce for increased expenses), meaning that e.g. 6 food from a wet Corn Farm is, in effect, four times as good as an ordinary Farm (say, adjacent to a Lake so that river commerce isn't a factor). Though I'm sure they also consciously made some parts of the game very powerful and others marginal to make the game more accessible. Praetorian (initially costing 40 production) is a good example; they must've known that this was overpowered.
    I see the challenge in writing a balance mod in coming up with surgical or low-profile changes (re: "so hard to learn everything from scratch") that go a long way.
     

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