KA01 - A Simple Deity Space Race

[AlanH]

Yes. See my post #14 in this thread. It's only two files to move.

The two resources files for gotm20 are unique - the first time Cracker modded them to try to defeat the use of fog-busting graphics mods. Games from 21 onwards used another special pair of resources files, until Ainwood moved the Classic games back to the out-of-the-box resources recently.

 

[DJMGator13]

Thanks Alan,

I do not have the GOTM20 folders but I do have the GOTM21 folders and your post #14 references the #21 files. I used them and I get the proper Leaderhead name. I already had the 7 flix folders, so I think I'm good to go. I was able to open the original save without any problems.

Now to go read the pregame discussion that Karasu was so nice to provide for us.

 

[AlanH]

The GOTM20 resources files are what you need. The GOTM21 files will not work correctly. They have no effect on leaderheads, and the game will probably run without crashing, but you won't see the bonus and lux resources correctly if you use the wrong ones.

Here's a zipped copy of my complete resources storage folder. Unzip it and drop it in your \Art\ folder, and then copy the two GOTM20 files as shown in my previous post.

 

[DJMGator13]

Thanks, I made the switch.

 

[Karasu]

Ok, then. Here we go.
We are already four pages into the thread, so I am copying here again the starting conditions:

GOTM20 announcement page (why do the work twice if the first one is good already? )

Game settings:
Civilization: Spain (Spanish)
Difficulty: Deity
World size: 5000 tiles
Landmass: Continents, 55% Water
Geology: Mystery
Environment: Mystery
Barbarians: Mystery
Rivals: 10 Preset
Upgrade Swordsmen/Longbows: ON

GOAL: Space Race victory as close as possible to 1275 AD
(I mean, if you guys manage to beat it, it need not be that close...

Starting position:

--- THE SAVE ---

Concerning the roster: not only Nikof's request was not forgotten, but I dare say that he deserves the honour of getting us started...
For the rest, I feel comfortable with the last spot, and the others are more or less random. Let me know if you are not happy with this roster, and I will change it accordingly.

Standard 20 turns first, then 10 each, 24h got it and 72 post the save. I am not at all strict with times and number of turns played, provided warnings are given timely whenever there is a problem looming on the horizon.

So, the Roster
Nikof
AlanH
Gator
Mistfit
Tomoyo
Karasu


In the spirit of a game in which we explore the deity level and a very focussed approach to the specific victory condition that we set as our goal, I suggest that we stop and discuss game plans and options as frequently as we deem necessary.

That it to say, I wouldn't want us to rush through the game and miss opportunities to talk about major decisions.

Especially for the starting moves, we can immediately start with a discussion of the initial options even before you open the save -the original pre-game thread is of course a rich guideline in this respect.

And, Nikof, feel free to come back to the thread and during the very first turns and promote more discussions on the settling spot and initial build / research plans.


Well, enough blablabla...
... off we go!

 

[Karasu]

For the PtW roster, I opened up a new thread HERE

Everything should be in place for the game to begin, but if I messed up anything, well... I hope Ainwood and Alan can fix it!

Just a note on cross-posting.
I don't know if we should freely browse and post between threads. I mean, I wouldn't like a team to be too influenced by a revolutionary approach that the other one might have discovered...
How about letting each roster follow its path and check things at specific times -like we do with spoilers?

 

[Tomoyo]

Ignore this post. I got the problem solved.

 

[DJMGator13]

I've only made it throught the first 7 pages of the pregame discussion but there are 2 very good posts so far (others are good as well). Make sure you read SirPleb's (Post #35) and Qitai (post #88).

Also since this is the same GOTM save there may be a few units that newer players have not seen. Mainly the Fog with defense of 1 and the squid unit (think Barb galley).

There was some concerns about disease resulting from building on FP. There was also speculation by the fog gazers about a FP wheat SE SE and an incense S SW.

Also there were 2 pre-popped GH that standardized the start and gave The Wheel and 25 gold. So we start with 3 techs known.

 

[Mistfit]

Can you post a link to that gator? I couldn't find it.

 

[DJMGator13]

Karasu has it in post #26, but here is the pregame one. I did not find much useful in the speculation thread.

GOTM Pregame discussion has certainly dropped off from where it was before. They have 14 full pages of discussion. Most of it very good.

 

[DJMGator13]

Just a note on cross-posting.
I don't know if we should freely browse and post between threads. I mean, I wouldn't like a team to be too influenced by a revolutionary approach that the other one might have discovered...
How about letting each roster follow its path and check things at specific times -like we do with spoilers?

That sounds OK with me. Once our team reaches the MA we could post a MA notice in their thread, or a PM to Ainwood. They could do the same with a post or PM to Karasu and then we could view only up to that point, once both teams reach the MA It would also be good to have a save from the turn MA is reached for comparison, this could be in the middle of someone's round.

Although we need to be careful that both teams have similar world maps. Don't want to give away a successful suicide path or other civs location if not already known.

 

[ainwood]

GOTM Pregame discussion has certainly dropped off from where it was before. They have 14 full pages of discussion. Most of it very good.

Any suggestions on how to get that back?

 

[Mistfit]

Did you partake in CGOTM4? I thought the pregame discussion was very good there.
BTW thanks. And I'm glad to here for now that Ivan looks to be heading elsewhere.

Edit: Pic added for discussionary purposes.

Note please check over my values. I can never remember these. I'm constantly left-clicking tiles to see what they are worth.

Any suggestions on how to get that back?

Be sure to invite SirPleb. IMHO our best player and writer in this forum.

 

[DJMGator13]

Any suggestions on how to get that back?

- but since we haven't started yet and I did not want to open a new thread I'll post here (feel free to open a new thread if we want to get a better discussion going)

I just went back and checked the page totals for the pregme discussions. It appears that the COTM games are generating a good amount of pregame posts. While the GOTM discussion is actually on the rise from a low of 3 pages.

COTM01 - no pregame discussion, outside of the 7 page speculation thread
COTM02 - 17 pages of pregame discussion
COTM03 - 10 pages of pregame
COTM04 - 10 pages of pregame

GOTM34 - 7 pages
GOTM33 - 6 pages
GOTM32 - caught up in the COTM01 debate, saw 6 page of speculation but no pregame
GOTM31 - 8 pages
GOTM30 - 6 pages
GOTM29 - 3 pages
GOTM28 - 4 pages
GOTM27 - 3 pages (this was even a GOTY)
GOTM26 - 3 pages
GOTM25 - 6 pages

Not sure how to increase participation. Appears that many more people are playing the C3C games than are playing the classic. That has a lot to do with it. For GOTM20 it appears Cracker opened the speculation thread (with the Civ stated) 15 days before the start and opened the pregame (with full game details) about 5 days before the start. This allowed speculation about opponents and generalization regarding how to play that specific civ. It also appears full knowledge of the game conditions helped to make the pregame talk more relevent.

An idea to increase participation, might be to give some kind of fog gazer award and/or who provided the best opening screen advice on settler move or tech startegy. Reward could be to rename the Great Leaders in the next game to these players or something like that.

EDIT: I'm not critizing the lack of participation or the current method of leaking info. That seems to have it's own fans as well. I have gotten such late starts recently I have not been able to participate. But it would be nice to get the active level back up.

As Mistfit said make sure Sir Pleb plays and we need to encourage some of the top players to post there also, as well as participate in the spoilers. I acheived my first pre 1000AD victory recently but still have no idea how they do it by mid 400-500AD.

 

[Mistfit]

That being said I think the approprate move is to send the worker to the hill to spot what is around us and more than likely move the settler there as well. I like ideas put forth by Quitai on research but how will we know in time wether or not he are alone in our area with a monopoly on Alphabet. I'd say go for the Myst/Poly gambit route.

 

[nikof]

Yikes! Well, that's what I get for opening my big mouth. I'd just like to point out that fair warning was given.

You don't want me leading off with a Deity game...

I've got it, my first Deity game.

And here's some more fodder for discussion. I will check in a few times during my turns, probably.

...hmm, bit of a problem with the GMO wheat, I don't think they've completely assimilated the fish genes. The invisible cows are also an impressive bit of breeding. Ah, here we go!

What an amazing start location! I'll try not to mess it up too badly... While the starting square will work fine for a settler factory, my inclination is to move to the hill, for the defensive bonus. Work/improve the cows, then zip back for the wheat. This will also give an extra coastal city at RCP3, if the hill to the W is a corner as it appears.

Regarding techs, I count 4 Expansionist civs (not sure about Ottomans, Keltoi) so Pottery should be available on our continent. Also 3+ Commercial civs, so I don't think we can bank on a monopoly for Alphabet. I tend to agree with Mistfit that Myst/Poly is the way to go, although I could be persuaded otherwise. Is 40-turn gambit a fast enough pace to get to Monarchy? That seems like a long time. Why not research this path at maximum possible, to get out of despotism as early as we can?

In general for the space race, I assume we want to trade techs early & often, and also to encourage contact between the other civs once it's possible. Or would that put us too far behind the pace in Deity? Any thoughts on how important an early Galley is?

Build order - something like 2-3 Warriors, Worker, Granary, Settler Settler Settler... (actually I haven't counted shields, this is just a preference to get a Granary fast, with chopped forest help, before popping settlers).

Finally, any insights on how to minimize extortion from the other civs? I'm planning to give in to all demands, but I thought I saw a thread once about knowing when the demands are coming, and ensuring your treasury is not flush.

I'll read your comments early Tuesday morning (GMT-5) and play some after that.

Ambitiously,
nikof

 

[Tomoyo]

Seeing how the start is so food rich, I might be more inclined to go for a settler before the granary, so that the capital doesn't go above size 7, because we don't start with Pottery, meaning the Granary can't come ultra-early. The obvious move is one tile North-east, onto the hill, to get the cow, creating a 4-turn settler factory.

Opening worker moves should be to road the plains cow, then go mine the grassland cow and road it. We can irrigate the plains cow later, but at the moment, we have enough growth with the wheat by itself.

 

[nikof]

Yes, we'll definitely want to keep the city below size 7. Can do that by building workers or settlers - settler makes sense, unless it would slow the Granary unduly.

But I don't agree about opening worker moves - irrigating the Cow Plain would make it a 3f/2s tile, which is within our initial borders. So we'll get the growth to pop2 [edit-make that pop3] a turn earlier. I think we're pretty shield-rich in this position too, with the cows, BG, and forest. 4 tiles (iCowPlain, iWheatFP, mBG, Forest) would set up a nice 4-turn settler factory, and the second city could use the CowGrassland.

I'm never one to pass up free food (still thinking like a student!) so I'd irrigate/road the closer cow, then irrigate/road the farther cow, then backtrack to road a FP, then irrigate and road the WheatFP. Before that's finished we can have a second worker, or an early Settler.

I could get a Settler by about turn 15, bringing the city from pop4 or 5 to pop2 or 3. That would slow the Granary build, and delay the 4-turn factory. My hunch is that we can get more Settlers faster by hanging on for the Granary, but my math hasn't quite caught up with it yet. Obviously if we're being pressed, I'll pop a settler early. Also a settler at turn 15 would mean keeping a second warrior at home for protection - I was hoping to have one at home and 2 exploring, initially.

p.s. edit - @Karasu, thanks for the confidence in putting me 1st on the roster. "I will work harder" - Boxer the horse.

 

[DJMGator13]

If the traits are the same as listed in the Civlopedia than all first tier techs are in play. We can research either MYST or WRIT.

Starting Civs/traits/techs
SPN......rel & com......CB & ALPHA & WHEEL (from GH)
ENG......exp & com....ALPHA & POT
OTTO....sci & ind......BW & MAS
KELT.....mil & rel.......CB & WC
FRA......com & ind.....ALPHA & MAS
ZUL......exp & mil......WC & POT
JPN......rel & mil........CB & WHEEL
AZT.....rel & mil........WC & CB
AMR.....exp & ind......POT & MAS
IRQ......exp & rel......CB & POT
IND......com & rel.....CB & ALPHA

If we are trying to push the tech pace would beelining for Republic be a better path to pursue? I ususally only do Monarchy (MYST) when I plan on warring and go Republic (WRIT) when trying to push the tech pace.

If we settle the hill we could be at 15fpt and 7spt at size4. If we can find a few more shields for our capital we could possibly get a 4 turn warrior/settler factory. The obvious move is the settler NE to the hill to finish turn 1. Then move the worker before founding our capital, just to see if there are any more shields around. We need either a BG and a game or 2 BG's to get to 10spt, based on that I would move the worker N to the plain cattle for turn 2 and hope to find more shields in the forest or grasslands above the lake. If no more shields I'd settle on the hill.

EDIT: If you find more shields let us know.

I agree with Nikof - I would irrigate the Pcattle before roading, which is where my 2nd worker move puts us. The FP wheat want be of use until we culturally expand.

 

[Karasu]

Wow, I remembered that Cracker had given us a food-rich start, but I had completely forgotten that it was that good!

The capital placement and the best use of all these bonuses is surely something we need to think about with some care.
Unfortunately for you, this will probably involve some micromanagement -which is something I am no good at

Anyway, it seems that founding Madrid on the hill will give it access to all the bonus tiles. However, we have (potentially)
- irrigated wheat on flood plain: 5f, 0s
- irrigated cow on plains: 3f, 2s (no point in mining it under despotism)
- mined cow on grassland: 3f, 2s or irrigated cow on grassland: 4f, 1s

Plus
- mined BG: 2f, 2s
- forests: 1f, 2s
- mined grassland: 2f, 1s

Which means an awful lot of food, more than we need for a simple settler factory.
So the pressing question for me now is: can we get more?
That is, will there be a way to set up two settler factories -it need not be two 4-turn factories, of course. Maybe 2 5 or 6 turns, probably sharing tiles and alternating some -that's why I mentioned micromanaging.
Or a combined settler-unit or settler-worker factory.

I don't know -I mean, this is a real question- but our initial expansion and build order depends on how we want to use these resources.


Talking about build order, two or three warriors will be good for exploration and military police.
Incidentally, in the pregame discussion some people mentioned a possible luxury to the south-west.


Other scattered thoughts:
- Research: Writing or Mysticism seem the obvious choices. If we "waste" 1 turn moving the settler, the risk of loosing a 40-turn gambit is high.
So, either we pick a tech and cross our fingers or start max research as soon as possible.
It is still a bit premature, but I am not sure we should go straight to Monarchy -I was more or less considering Republic as our obvious target. Of course, being Religious we can tolerate a couple government changes.

- Trading and extortion. Trading much and often is probably the key to this game (without forgetting expansion, of course... :devil2: ), even gifting techs away to keep the pace high. This will also mean that the AI won't have techs to demand.
And if they do make demands (they will if they are 'more powerful' than us) I would give in, at least at the beginning.

Oh, I almost forgot: we should have the 'old' Civ rules here, so Writing is the fist big trading opportunity (contacts) and MapMaking the second (maps).


EDIT: @Nikof,