Kahd Questions

[Breez]

Okay I just tried Kahd for the 1st time, and I have a few inquires.

BTW the Gates Civopedia Entry is a txt error

The Portal Gates -
What creatures can come through them? So far they are relitivly weak, but I am not far into the game.
Assuming it is more than just goslings, what determines what types you get? AC would seem to be odd to me.

Reliegion -
Can I build temples?

I was on a team with a friend (Kazad) in a MP game we bee-lined Runes, we had 1 city each, our capitals when we researched it. I got the holy city in my capital and not him (which my civ description says should not happen) He didn't even get a Thane and the one I got died trying to get to his city. I am REALLY hoping I can build Temples when i get priesthood so I can try to get another to him.

World Spell -
Is there a good place to see exactly how my World spell works?
It looks like I get 2 but they are mutually exsclusive. Did I miss anything important below?

Enlightenment
- Portal Creatures start with Strong Promo
- +120 Alignment
- Hero gets Random spells

OtherspellIforgotnameof
- -150 Alignment
- Can build a new building that adds gold
- Hero starts with Mind 1 2 3 and a +10% chance to control defeated enemy item.

In General -
Mages promote easier than other races. Is there anything I missed that should be here?

 

[WarKirby]

As far as I can tell, the portal creatures ARe really weak.

Gnoslings and thades both suck, horribly. Other than that, it's possible to get djinns, but not until some relatively late building along the arcane path, and even then, they're rare.

The Psion creature is only available if you pick the dark path.
Most of the creatures aren't really capable of standing up to the enemy as frontline soldiers, and yet the khadi are deprived of any real sldiers above axemen, and they don't even get a stpidly overpowered axeman UU like the Sheiam. just a normal run of the mill guy with an axe.

Overall, I felt the Khadi were pretty underpowered. Made a thread about that a while back. didn't get much response thoug, Perhaps this one will be better.

 

[Breez]

Their (only?) hero comes way late too. No religious heroes available either.

I am not ready to say they need fixed, but I am willing to say I don't fully understand them yet. I assume I am missing something.

 

[Iceciro]

In Fall Flat, the Khadi get permanent elementals out of the Vault Gates depending on the mana types they have. I really like this as a solution - but the numbers I'm using may need some tweaking.

 

[Breez]

I take it that is only for the elemental mana types? No Nature or Shadow Elementals? =D

 

[Honor]

Iceciro do you have a thread for Fall Flat? I assume you released your modmodmod, but can not find any reference to it on the forums.

Edit: Ah, I see you didn't release it yet.

 

[Iceciro]

Sorry. I should stop bringing it up so much until it's finished >_> Comments like that are intended more towards "I'm doing this and it seems to help" not "COME PLAY THIS THING I MADE!"

 

[xienwolf]

You'll know if you are overdue when people start claiming you are making a Mod-Mod of Magister's version

 

[Vehem]

Gnoslings and thades both suck, horribly. Other than that, it's possible to get djinns, but not until some relatively late building along the arcane path, and even then, they're rare.

Gnoslings: Combat 2 + 1 Metamagic Affinity, Gain bonus Experience equal to double their opponents level if they win a combat (defeat a level 2, get 4XP for free), have Metamagic 1 and 2 to start (Floating Eye and Dispel). No requirements other than the gate.

Scout units that start at Warrior strength due to the Palace Mana, can cast a spell to grant vision equivalent to a Hunter's Hawk, level quickly and can be boosted in power to whatever degree you choose to pursue metamagic nodes.

Thades: All the benefits of Mobius Witches, plus able to teleport and are elemental.

These only require a mage guild to be eligible (in addition to the gate) and have a 1 in 5 chance of having any of the "non-evil" spell spheres at level 1. These are planned to receive a slight boost by gaining Channelling2, so they can level to gain new spells from the spheres they know.

Djinns: Power is directly related to the number of Mana nodes you have. Permanent versions of a Tier 3 summon

Going to make these slightly less rare - currently the weaker they are (less Mana), the more you can have at one time. That will be changing.

Psions: Corrupt Path - can cast Domination.

Pretty decent reward for being evil (also has a unique Wonder available for this path - "Monument to Avarice" and their Hero gains a magic item and Mind1-3 when built).

====

Redeemed Path:

+50% to max summons
3x chance to arrive per turn
All summons are "Strong"
Kahd receives a random assortment of non-evil spell spheres, level 1 to 3​

====

Personally I don't think either of the early units "suck horribly" - they're just not late game units. Just out of curiosity - what speed do you play on WarKirby, and do you use Advanced Start? A lot of your comments seem to downplay the importance of the early game...

 

[Iceciro]

The problem, Vehem, is that they don't suck in the early game to me.

It's when Champion level units start knocking Khad starts to take a nosedive. In order for any of Khad's units to be able to stand up to a Champion, you have to have a ton of mana nodes. These units aren't civ benefits, much like the Sheiam, the Vault Gate creatures have to be the Khadi's lategame too because they don't get anything above swordsmen.

A few Djinns and a ton of Gnoslings are not going to complete with (as an example) the Grigori throwing a stack of 20 Dragon Slayers, two of which are Heroes, at him. Or a stack of Vampires.

Even the Djinns will need the Khadi to secure two more mana nodes in addition to palace mana to be equal to a Champion with no metal. Psions are neat but you get them on the evil path, denying Strong to your vault summons and a lot of summons. They're also very rare in numbers, and you'll usually get something else when you are eligible for a Psion.

Strength of will is a 8960 tech to get Psions, whereas Iron Working is 2240 and also gives the iron metal. Granted, SoW gives you Archmages and Khad, but it's pretty hard to survive to get that far with AIs pounding you to death with a massive numbers advantage (and these numbers are probably of better units.)

Also, investing heavily in Metamgic nodes to get better Gnoslings isn't an option for me most of the time. Having the T1/T2 spells on Followers isn't that important, and the t3 summon for Metamagic gets bonuses from any mana anyways.

 

[Vehem]

The problem, Vehem, is that they don't suck in the early game to me.

It's when Champion level units start knocking Khad starts to take a nosedive. In order for any of Khad's units to be able to stand up to a Champion, you have to have a ton of mana nodes. These units aren't civ benefits, much like the Sheiam, the Vault Gate creatures have to be the Khadi's lategame too because they don't get anything above swordsmen.

A few Djinns and a ton of Gnoslings are not going to complete with (as an example) the Grigori throwing a stack of 20 Dragon Slayers, two of which are Heroes, at him. Or a stack of Vampires.

A Gnosling upgrade to fill the gap perhaps? Having looked back at it, they have lost a lot in that area of the tech tree (Melee, Religion, most of the cavalry). Their early game isn't bad, and their late game is Archmage-oriented, but the mid-game seems lacking. I'll take a look at that.

====

The other thing I'd considered is replacing the "bonus XP for winning a combat" on Gnoslings with a slow hero-promotion (0.25XP per turn). That way, you can be sure they'll level up until they may actually be able to tackle at least basic champions.

 

[Vehem]

It's when Champion level units start knocking Khad starts to take a nosedive. In order for any of Khad's units to be able to stand up to a Champion, you have to have a ton of mana nodes.

...

Strength of will is a 8960 tech to get Psions, whereas Iron Working is 2240 and also gives the iron metal. Granted, SoW gives you Archmages and Khad, but it's pretty hard to survive to get that far with AIs pounding you to death with a massive numbers advantage (and these numbers are probably of better units.)

...but the mid-game seems lacking. I'll take a look at that.

Champions are back. Unit is a 10 minute reskin of Danrell's Arabic Maceman UU.

 

[Iceciro]

Now I'll have to unfix my mod's Khadi! You devious so-and-so...

EDIT: I dunno, I may leave them sans champion in mine. We'll see.

 

[WarKirby]

Personally I don't think either of the early units "suck horribly" - they're just not late game units. Just out of curiosity - what speed do you play on WarKirby, and do you use Advanced Start? A lot of your comments seem to downplay the importance of the early game...

My strategy in most games is fairly similar

I warrior rush my first oppponent, and usually get some space to develop in isolation, then concentrate on economy and research. In the large majority of games, I don't see another war until a 100-strong stack of champions, rangers, and catapults comes knocking at my front door.

I always play on either normal or quick speed, it varies. never use advanced start.
At present, I play on emperor difficulty, where my enemies get some free promotions.

In a grigori game I'm playing right now, I've developed peacefully, sandwiched between two large empires for a long time. Dural and Ljosalfar. Both of whom now have beastmasters and paladins, as well as some 40 odd priests of leaves each.

For me, most combat takes place mid-lae game. And I find the Khadi lacking.

Gnoslings, can theoretically be improved infinitely, but that's not going to happen in practice. To get a lot of mana nodes, you need power. And Kahd is lacking there.

Personally, I'd say gnoslings need some sort of improvd version of themselves, with a higher base strength and 2 metamagic affinite (instead of 1) which could become available ith some midgame tech,

Thades definitely need improving. A big issue that I noticed, is that they don't start at lv1. I recall them starting at something like lv6, but their starts at 0. In practice, it means they need 26 xp just to level up once, which seems silly, and makes them nigh useless for frontline combat.

Playing as Khad, my army mostly consisted of a few heroic axemen, and that just didn't feel right. Giving them champions back will help, I guess. but it seems like an easy way out. It's making them more generic, to compensate for a weak unique mechanic. I guess it will solve their midgame power problems, but it's kind fo a boring solution. Considering they're a magic oriented faction, giving them champions doesn't really seem to fit.

I'd personally really rather see more completely new vault creatures added. Or maybe using the nidea of giving them permanant elementals from the vault, depending on what mana types you have.

A little thought though. If they're going to be given champions, how about at least making them slightly unique. Free Guardsman promotion, since they'll be protecting all Kahd's mages.

 

[Vehem]

I'd personally really rather see more completely new vault creatures added. Or maybe using the nidea of giving them permanant elementals from the vault, depending on what mana types you have.

That's something I quite liked, but was having trouble reconciling it with the lore (the gates link to Oghma's plane, and Thades are "elemental beings of knowledge"). I may choose to ignore the lore justification for the moment however, as I do like idea of other permanent summons coming through the gate.

====

On the topic of Affinity 2 Gnoslings - "not a chance" (tm). Higher base strength for an upgraded version is reasonable, but affinity is dangerous and double affinity is incredibly so. Only Chalid and extraordinary Monks have it. With only 2 nodes under your control, even basic Gnoslings (with Affinity 2) would become Strength 8 - an upgraded version would be 10+.

====

Thades should arrive at Level 4 with 14 experience. Same as Mobius Witches.

 

[Breez]

Thades should arrive at Level 4 with 14 experience. Same as Mobius Witches.

I just checked my game. I have a thanes ...

Age 11 with 5.25/17 exp
Age 22 with 7.15/17 exp
Age 49 with 12.8/17 exp

I am 90% sure that is all non combat, passive exp they have.

They seem to be starting at level 4 but with 0 exp

 

[Vehem]

I just checked my game. I have a thanes ...

Age 11 with 5.25/17 exp
Age 22 with 7.15/17 exp
Age 49 with 12.8/17 exp

I am 90% sure that is all non combat, passive exp they have.

They seem to be starting at level 4 but with 0 exp

Looks like the same thing is happening with Hyborem and Basium (should start on 25 each, but aren't). Will take a poke at it.

 

[WarKirby]

Why start a unit at a level higher than zero ? As far as I can tell, the main effect it has is to make it harder to level up. Is that the intention ?

 

[cIV_khanh93]

Because it also starts with random free promotions. You dont want it to be TOO easy to level them up now?

 

[Breez]

Okay I am nearing the end of my Kahd game. I fully admit I know nothing of the lore behind the game but a few new things I noticed...

- Distinct lack of healing.

I was resorting to courage as I never could make a priest (sort of understand) not a medic like the Grigori. Would it be possible to consider a medic type unit? Possibly a Medic UU or a priest of Oghma even if they were national units or even a minor unique hero/world unit.

- It seems Kahd can't get Twincast. Is this on purpose?

Seeing as he is the ONLY hero the civ gets, and the civ gets a huge hit if he dies, and he comes pretty late, he seems to be a tad under strength. In my game he has over 300 exp and the only promotions I have not purchased are a few spell lines I didn't want and some resists. I am pretty sure I didn't just miss it.

- Djinns gain exp but never level.

I am not saying this is wrong, or I disagree, just it caught me by surprise. I assume they fall under the same rules as Golums, and I can see where they CAN get extremely powerful with enough mana nodes. I never got more than 9 and with no promotions they were never a real factor in my game.

- Good Kahd has Command I

After readying how Evil Kahd gets a item with a % chance to control a defeated enemy I was surprised when my good Kahd had that as a skill. However since he is pretty weak, and such a big deal to lose I did not risk him in direct confrontation very often to actually use it. Relied more on summoned elementals.