AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
ok - edits in.
And sent
And sent
Kazakhstan Embassy
- Thread starter General_W
- Start date
Ronnie1
Deity
I guess we have no word from them directly....
Based on them withdrawing their troops, it seems they must at least be willing to negotiate at this point.
Based on them withdrawing their troops, it seems they must at least be willing to negotiate at this point.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
nope - no reply to the email.
Krill
Deity
*shrug* Not like we need peace with Kaz.
That said, Kaleb, Cav Scout, damnrunner, Indiansmoke, Sommerswerd and donsig have all been about yesterday and today, tearing through the posts. I think the Kaz forum has recieved 50 posts over the past 2 days, so there are discussing something. None of the other forums have been that active either, so it's either an(other) attach plan/ defence plan or they are talking about the peace offer.
That said, Kaleb, Cav Scout, damnrunner, Indiansmoke, Sommerswerd and donsig have all been about yesterday and today, tearing through the posts. I think the Kaz forum has recieved 50 posts over the past 2 days, so there are discussing something. None of the other forums have been that active either, so it's either an(other) attach plan/ defence plan or they are talking about the peace offer.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
guess I should have signed the email. Never occurred to me that they might take it as a rogue element.
This whole war is because they thought TKY should be theirs.
This whole war is because they thought TKY should be theirs.
Well this is kidna the way we knew it was going to go. No real peace, but a Defacto peace.
they are withdrawing thier units....how nice of them. What was the lone Mace going to do?
The tone of that message changes all over the place.
If you look closely paragraph 1 & 3 & 5 have the same tone, and 2 & 4 (in reverse order) have and completly opposite one. Try reading the message like this:
they are withdrawing thier units....how nice of them. What was the lone Mace going to do?
The tone of that message changes all over the place.
If you look closely paragraph 1 & 3 & 5 have the same tone, and 2 & 4 (in reverse order) have and completly opposite one. Try reading the message like this:
Kazakstan Negotiating said:
Kazakstan being stupid and stubborn said:
So realistically Whomp, AT, regoarrar, G_W we need you input...part of me wants to call them on thier hidden agenda message....it is very poorly constructed.
I want to send these 2 letters back to them and ask them which one they meant to send.
Alternatively all we need is 10 turns of peace. So maybe the way to go is to enter into peace talks with a formal 10 turn treaty in game.
I want to send these 2 letters back to them and ask them which one they meant to send.
Alternatively all we need is 10 turns of peace. So maybe the way to go is to enter into peace talks with a formal 10 turn treaty in game.
Krill
Deity
HAHAHA.
Ok, that's enough from me.
Ok, that's enough from me.
Krill
Deity
So...regoarrarr is away this weekend, Dreylin is OOC moving/preping for his holiday in the UK...
Yeah, I don't want to write the reply. In fact I don't want to have anything to do with it, because what I'd say really wouldn't go over too well with Kaz...
So what is everyone elses' opinion on how we should reply?
Yeah, I don't want to write the reply. In fact I don't want to have anything to do with it, because what I'd say really wouldn't go over too well with Kaz...
So what is everyone elses' opinion on how we should reply?
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
Sounds reasonable.
We could ask them if they have an actual counterproposal, or if they just want to say they don't like our proposals.
We could ask them if they have an actual counterproposal, or if they just want to say they don't like our proposals.
Krill
Deity
Their counter proposal was us giving up TKY and Zero.
IamJohn
(was)?
I'm willing to try to write something longer once we have an idea of what we want to say if you guys want.
Can we see if we can work out some sort of right of passage or something? We guarantee them access?
Can we see if we can work out some sort of right of passage or something? We guarantee them access?
Krill
Deity
EDIT: OK, finished the post now.
OK, here is a tactical analysis of the situation:
Kaz have basic 3 options right now:
None of them are a threat to us, unless Cav attack us at the same time that Kaz try to. I wouldn't trust Kaz in de jure peace an awful lot, so in reality I'd treat Kaz as if we had de facto peace even if they did end up accepting a peace deal. Now the real probem there? We wouldn't actually gain anything from peace, we would only gain an advantage if we trust Kaz to follow the peace deal. But considering that TKY is also a front city to Cav, we are going to have to have military in the area anyway, and having a little more to deal with Kaz, or to send into to attack Cav from that flank, isn't a bad thing once we reach the part of the game where open warfare with Cav is declared.
I consider that point to be around t150 at the latest.
So peace is only an advantage short term, and Memphus just sent them an offer of 10 turns peace in game. If Kaz accept they just royally screwed up they negotiating position, but we'll see what they end up doing.
So, here is the question: Just how can we benefit from peace with Kaz, considering that even giving them the respect that we feel they curently deserve, we are expanding in two other directions already?
That's one that I find difficult to answer. The simplest way of phrasing that question is "What can Kaz do for us?" What techs can they research and trade to us? Machinery? Compass? Drama? I wouldn't mind trading at a beaker deficient rate to them if they did accept peace. Would anyone else? Do they have any resources that we drasticaly need (that's a no...).
TBH I'm tempted to say that SANCTA is best suited to keeping Kaz focussing on war, unless Kaz are willing to trade with us. Strategically Having another ally in Kaz would be nice; completely unnecesarry, but it gives us a better chance at winning the game.
On handing over Zero and TKY: That is a big risk unless we are sure Kaz won't backstab. It opens up a two city front against Kaz, and makes defending an absolute ***** to the extent that we couldn't hold TKY (this is the exact reason we settled Zero in the first place...and grabbed Music). Handing over TKY immediately wipes out all of the advantages we just worked hard for (and luck we got, praise be unto the RNG) over the past 23 turns.
It's a big tactical no-no, on other words. But then again, considering SANCTA laughed it down before we broke Kazs' army, that might not be needed to be said, but for posters to reread after the game...
So, what are the other negotiating pieces do we have? We have a third sugar, a third ivory, a third banana, a third wheat, a third fish that we could offer. I don't know which ones Kaz have of those, and we need to hook all of them up, and the banana would the banana would be the hardest to hook up, as we would need to get another city out for it. We have Music as well. I don't think we have anything else that we could use as trade fodder.
OK, here is a tactical analysis of the situation:
Kaz have basic 3 options right now:
- De jure peace (ie accepting a peace treaty).
- De facto peace (ie refusing the peace treaty, but only building enough units to defend).
- Attack (slave out another army, and attack us with it).
None of them are a threat to us, unless Cav attack us at the same time that Kaz try to. I wouldn't trust Kaz in de jure peace an awful lot, so in reality I'd treat Kaz as if we had de facto peace even if they did end up accepting a peace deal. Now the real probem there? We wouldn't actually gain anything from peace, we would only gain an advantage if we trust Kaz to follow the peace deal. But considering that TKY is also a front city to Cav, we are going to have to have military in the area anyway, and having a little more to deal with Kaz, or to send into to attack Cav from that flank, isn't a bad thing once we reach the part of the game where open warfare with Cav is declared.
I consider that point to be around t150 at the latest.
So peace is only an advantage short term, and Memphus just sent them an offer of 10 turns peace in game. If Kaz accept they just royally screwed up they negotiating position, but we'll see what they end up doing.
So, here is the question: Just how can we benefit from peace with Kaz, considering that even giving them the respect that we feel they curently deserve, we are expanding in two other directions already?
That's one that I find difficult to answer. The simplest way of phrasing that question is "What can Kaz do for us?" What techs can they research and trade to us? Machinery? Compass? Drama? I wouldn't mind trading at a beaker deficient rate to them if they did accept peace. Would anyone else? Do they have any resources that we drasticaly need (that's a no...).
TBH I'm tempted to say that SANCTA is best suited to keeping Kaz focussing on war, unless Kaz are willing to trade with us. Strategically Having another ally in Kaz would be nice; completely unnecesarry, but it gives us a better chance at winning the game.
On handing over Zero and TKY: That is a big risk unless we are sure Kaz won't backstab. It opens up a two city front against Kaz, and makes defending an absolute ***** to the extent that we couldn't hold TKY (this is the exact reason we settled Zero in the first place...and grabbed Music). Handing over TKY immediately wipes out all of the advantages we just worked hard for (and luck we got, praise be unto the RNG) over the past 23 turns.
It's a big tactical no-no, on other words. But then again, considering SANCTA laughed it down before we broke Kazs' army, that might not be needed to be said, but for posters to reread after the game...
So, what are the other negotiating pieces do we have? We have a third sugar, a third ivory, a third banana, a third wheat, a third fish that we could offer. I don't know which ones Kaz have of those, and we need to hook all of them up, and the banana would the banana would be the hardest to hook up, as we would need to get another city out for it. We have Music as well. I don't think we have anything else that we could use as trade fodder.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
- Handing over TKY is just not going to happen and if that's the price of peace, then there's no peace. Maybe if they show up with a stack of 12 maces and war elephants, and 12 cats. But there's just no reason for us to hand it over.
As for peace:
We can gain some financial benefits to peace if we get OB.
The bigger gain is that some of our troops get freed up to barb bust.
And, of course, we can't get screwed by the RNG.
As for peace:
We can gain some financial benefits to peace if we get OB.
The bigger gain is that some of our troops get freed up to barb bust.
And, of course, we can't get screwed by the RNG.
Krill
Deity
Tactically, OB with Kaz is worth a grand total of 7 gpt, and we are already planning on fogbusting with the sentry chariot and the new city. Those are not huge benefits of peace.
IamJohn
(was)?
Another question is also not just Kaz attacking us now, but later on when Cav does attack (either through boating us, or just simply walking their army over), and Kaz has an opportunity to make things much harder for us. If we do have them on our side that'll be a concern for Cav, and make them much less willing to boat us. Kaz on our side of the power struggle is much more then just resources, it's the balance of power and how drastically Cav can be able to change it.
In anycase however I agree with you, giving up TKY and other cities there is not an option, and they should seriously reconsider their sanity if they think they can get it, they've trashed their cities to come up with their soldiers, while we haven't really changed much to fight them off. They arn't in a position to demand anything.
In anycase however I agree with you, giving up TKY and other cities there is not an option, and they should seriously reconsider their sanity if they think they can get it, they've trashed their cities to come up with their soldiers, while we haven't really changed much to fight them off. They arn't in a position to demand anything.
Ronnie1
Deity
John makes a very good point.
But could WE ever trust Kaz to not just stab us when it was most inconvenient?
But could WE ever trust Kaz to not just stab us when it was most inconvenient?
