Kazakhstan National Security Plan

[Provolution]

Kazakhstan National Security Plan

This thread would handle our application of what is national secrets and what is not. This thread will have policies in place for certain situations impacting our diplomacy.

EXPLORATION

Our first warrior died in the Darya Valley to a Bear by turn
Caveleiros workboat departed east Turn 30, spotted, Turn 43, arrived at our border turn 46 and passed our capital turn 48.
Our workboat left eastwards turn 39.
Cavaleiros second workboat headed westwards turn 40.

RESOURCES

Cavaleiros got 2 herds, some fish and some farmlands, wine nearby
Kazakhstan has not informed Cavaleiros on presence of gold and wine.

TECHNOLOGY

T 53 Researched Writing
T 65 Researched Alphabet
T65 Trade Writing, Hunting and Animal Husbandry for Meditation
T66 Polytheim gifted to us by Team Cav
T67 Researched Archery, Oracle Completed, Team Cav gifts us Monarchy
T68 Trade Alphabet for Feudalism

 

[Sommerswerd]

Transferred from CavKaz treaty thread... Original discussion is here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=307519&page=7

We havent agreed on the workboat yet, Sommerswerd, that is a totally separate discussion not part of this deal. When they have ratified it, we will see how we develop our relationship from there. Please do not complicate this process more than it already is.

Ok, but your last message seemed to say that:

Niklas got one to check through

AND "they" (Cavalieros)

fully agreed to it

I inferred from these statements that treaty treaty had been approved... I know you are against disclosing wb but I thought that maybe if treaty had already been approved you might have bowed to majority... silly me... let the agruments commence

Glad you started this thread. I will post here instead of embassy thread.

 

[Provolution]

It is under approval, they just got it. It takes some time to do it. But if I were you, I would not spend all my energies telling away our last remaining secrets for fun, but focus on the game strategy on the gains we get from this deal.

 

[Provolution]

First out, we are not obliged to give away our workboat, scout or warriors for that matter.

Secondly, we are not obliged to tell any team we got gold, horse and soon wine, before writing and open borders are in place.

Need to know basis, should be our policy.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Please do not usurp majority and consensus terms please.

Not sure what you mean by this... If you mean I have "confused" the meaning of "majority" and "consensus" I respectfully disagree. At least three team members (Kaleb Khan, Cavscout and Sommers) have signed on to the plan that we tell Cavalieros about the workboat AS SOON AS the treaty is approved.

Donsig has said that he prefers to tell about the workboat BEFORE the treaty is approved.

Provolution is the ONLY team member to say that we should keep the wb a secret until we either meet civ 3 or tech trade with civ 3. So the count is AT LEAST currently 3 to 1 in favor of disclosure as soon as treaty is approved. This means we have a "majority" in favor of disclosure. There is no "consensus" and I suspect there will be none.

You still have not given any justification/reasons for this position IMO. You just keep asserting it over and over.

Keeping the workboat secret for 5-8 more turns is critical to our game, and if you are a working hard to undo this ploy, I am not very positive to it.

Yes, but again, again, again and again... Why Provo?... Why? Why is it "critical?"... You keep saying that we should keep it secret but there is no justification.

As I have said in other posts, I recognize that YOUR credibility will take a hit when we disclose the wb because you have been hiding it all along... I am sorry for this and I appreciate the gains we have made through your diplomacy... However, I think that YOUR INDIVIDUAL credibility (to Cavalieros) is a small sacrifice for a treaty which may well make the difference between winning and losing the game.

If there is any other reason you oppose disclosure... please, please, please tell.

 

[Provolution]

The reason is, we need to know who is the third civilization we meet and when we meet them before Team Cav does. Telling about the workboat will kill all strategic flexibility we have. I know you are more about civil liberties than about strategic positioning Sommerswerd. and seeking to overrun us by stating a majority after a brief talk on the matter is no good.

So, Team Cav has not disclosed us their warriors walking around, so why should we disclose our units?

We may consider an intelligence treaty later, if the first treaty works out, but you are wasting our precious secrets, and more than that, misdirecting team energies when we need to solve more pressing matters.

I know you are very keen about "sacrificing" me as an individual and so on, but you are not seeing the bigger picture here. Luckily, we have more players to weigh in on the matter, than your procrastination faction.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Provo... It seems like you are getting mad again... The last message did not have any smiley faces or anything. Remember... it is just a game, please don't get mad.

OK now we have some reasons to discuss...

The reason is, we need to know who is the third civilization we meet and when we meet them before Team Cav does. Telling about the workboat will kill all strategic flexibility we have.

It seems like Provo's reasons are as follows:

1.we need to know who is the third civilization... before Team Cav does.

My response...: Whether Cavalieros knows about our wb or not, we will prob meet civ 3 before them. So this concern is irrelevant, as far as telling Cavalieros about the wb goes...

2. Team Cav has not disclosed us their warriors

So, Team Cav has not disclosed us their warriors walking around, so why should we disclose our units?

Warrior locations are not equivalent to workboat loacations, because workboats do not face the same obstacles (barbs/animals) that warriors face. Workboats are a more reliable means of making contact... that's one reason why we should disclose the wb.

I know you are more about civil liberties than about strategic positioning Sommerswerd.

This paragraph is poorly worded... so it is hard to pinpoint your intent, BUT You are right if you mean that I am passionate about taking the votes of our team members seriously and trying to respect the wishes of the majority.

I know you are very keen about "sacrificing" me as an individual

Wrong on this... I recognize, and have lauded your personal sacrifices (much to the shagrin of CommandoBob). I just want to get the Team in the best position possible. I will continue to support you faithfully (regardless of how many names (procatination captain etc.,) you call me) when you are right. I will oppose you when you are wrong. I hope you can accept this... I think you are the MOST valuable member of this team... But I also think you are WRONG on this issue. So blast me.. your friend... if it makes you feel better.

 

[cav scout]

I think we have a majority for workboat disclosure. I move the previous question.

 

[Provolution]

Provo... It seems like you are getting mad again... The last message did not have any smiley faces or anything. Remember... it is just a game, please don't get mad.

I am not mad at all And sorry for forgetting the smileys (I am very aware its a game

OK now we have some reasons to discuss...


It seems like Provo's reasons are as follows:

1.we need to know who is the third civilization... before Team Cav does.

My response...: Whether Cavalieros knows about our wb or not, we will prob meet civ 3 before them. So this concern is irrelevant, as far as telling Cavalieros about the wb goes...

It is relevant, because it affects the timing of initiation and closing of negotiations. The workboat is the only relative advantage we got for the next eight turns, and we need to preserve it. There is no diplomatic cost for keeping this secret, as Niklas himself said we should wait with this, but consider sharing scout coordinates later within an Intel Agreement.

2. Team Cav has not disclosed us their warriors
Warrior locations are not equivalent to workboat loacations, because workboats do not face the same obstacles (barbs/animals) that warriors face. Workboats are a more reliable means of making contact... that's one reason why we should disclose the wb.

The reliability is not an issue here. The question is that its a matter of national security, and our best way to assure that the Feudalism deal is landed. If we tell about the workboat now, we may risk that relations are altered before tech researches are completed. As soon as open border agreement is signed, we should tell them about our gold. So, keeping the workboat private for eight more turns, we are fully entitled to. As soon as we can read their graphis (turn 54-58) we should inform them.

This paragraph is poorly worded... so it is hard to pinpoint your intent, BUT You are right if you mean that I am passionate about taking the votes of our team members seriously and trying to respect the wishes of the majority.

I was speaking about the other teams civil liberties in knowing all about our national secrets I have been all for majority votes in this team, even in polls, to make sure we get some decision at all, and not die midstream. I also feel discriminated as my minority voice is to be mowed over, whereas other minority voices are allowed a larger degree of right to delay processes.

Wrong on this... I recognize, and have lauded your personal sacrifices (much to the shagrin of CommandoBob). I just want to get the Team in the best position possible. I will continue to support you faithfully (regardless of how many names (procatination captain etc.,) you call me) when you are right. I will oppose you when you are wrong. I hope you can accept this... I think you are the MOST valuable member of this team... But I also think you are WRONG on this issue. So blast me.. your friend... if it makes you feel better.

I laud you too for great inputs and for boosting morale for several of the teamplayers, as well as a large number of insightful posts on game strategy, but we surely crash on omitting data on the workboat. If you feel bad enough letting the other team know, you can sure just send them a PM, I cant stop you. But I believe this team needs some secrets in this dangerous transition phase looking for the 3rd civilization. What if Team Cav finds another civ with their warrior first? We need to keep the WB out of the focus right now, as it distracts attention from the new treaty. I know you oppose me from time to time, even aggressively so, but that is part of team games, and sometimes high temperature is good for steaming out some key topics.

I do not consider myself as valuable as several here. Indiansmoke got me on the idea to get us Feudalism through a foreign deal like this, Kaleb gave me the idea to hold Alphabet back for Feudalism for leverage, Donsig made a better case for exclusivity, you made a great suggestion for, Cavscout has excellent micromanagement skills and so on, so overall I am quite happy with the team. The only thing I want more, is a more seamless and smooth diplomacy, and for that, I need local support, not the opposite.

 

[donsig]

I think we have a majority for workboat disclosure. I move the previous question.

I second the motion and vote for telling Team Cav about the workboat.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I vote Aye on telling about the workboat.

I also think that the deadline for voting on this issue should be until Team Cavalieros aprove the treaty...

 

[Provolution]

No, the deadline should be when they are acting on the treaty, and its our turn. Sommerswerd, take it easy there.

Also, I would like 2 more votes on the matter, as its our only secret of major note, and it should only be conveyed when its solidified and made official the next turn.

 

[cav scout]

Team Cav has approved the treaty and it is their turn now. They will be initiating the phony war to pass through.

Votes so far-

For: Cav Scout, Donsig, Sommerswerd, Kaleb
Against: Provolution

 

[Kaleb]

I vote for telling them about the workboat

looks like 4:1 in favour so far...

 

[Provolution]

Well, the vote for disclosing it is in the lead, I admit that, but let a few others speak their mind before we disclose it.

If we disclose it this early, it has to be done in the process on considering an Intel Treaty with Team Cav (giving each other coordinates on exploration units, and providing each other the finds, which would be a natural next step in negotiations).

 

[Sommerswerd]

No, the deadline should be when they are acting on the treaty, and its our turn. Sommerswerd, take it easy there.

OK so its no longer our turn... Cavalieros have accepted the treaty (Good work everyone) So I think we have reached the deadline. The current majority is in favor of disclosure so we tell about wb... If no one feels like writing the note my suggested language is this:

The Kaz nation welcomes our new friends and allies the Cavalieros nation. Now that our two nations have joined into one glorious alliance we wish there to be complete honesty and co-operation between us. In the spirit of mutual co-operation and agreement the East CavKaz people offer the West CavKaz people this vital information: We have sent out a ship containing our most intrepid sailors, in search of a civilization to the Northeast of the CavKaz nation. This boat left many turns ago... prior to the East cavKaz people meeting the West CavKaz people. Now that we have two ships, perhaps the West CavKaz ship can explore west... If not then we will have two ships exploring east. As soon as another civilization is contacted, we will discuss bringing a new partner into our glorious alliance!!!

Also, I would like 2 more votes on the matter, as its our only secret of major note, and it should only be conveyed when its solidified and made official the next turn.

Hmmm... I don't know about this Provo. Since the vote is currently 4 to 1 in favor of disclosure, 2 more votes would not be enough to overcome majority. Don't you think that this issue has been decided?

 

[Provolution]

I would like us to present the workboat as part of a prelude for an "Intelligence Sharing Treaty", otherwise, we would have disclosed the position for absolutely no gain.

I am also for having polls from now on with 24 to 48 hour timers, or we would have these majority/consensus discussions over and over again, maybe allowing King Kaleb a dual vote in case of a tie. I do not like the way "consensus" and "majority" and the deadline for decisions have now become measure of your impulse sommerswerd. Having the Phoney War issue delay the decision infinitely, but this should be done in a heartbeat and so on, simply because you determine so, Sommerswerd. We need to use time-defined polls from now on, or there will be no civil liberties but the ones you dictate, Sommerswerd.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I would like us to present the workboat as part of a prelude for an "Intelligence Sharing Treaty", otherwise, we would have disclosed the position for absolutely no gain.

I disagree... there is gain... We gain because our new allies will see that we are willing to be open and honest with them. If we are going to co-operate in destroying the other civs, we need to have a modicum of trust between us. This disclosure puts the ball in their court. Now it is their turn to volunteer info... If there is anything that they are keeping away from us, then they are dishonorable and we will not trust them moving forward...

 

[Provolution]

The trust is already there, Sommerswerd, the workboat will make no difference in that regard. However, if we met a 3rd civ without telling them, that would be worse.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I am also for having polls from now on with 24 to 48 hour timers, or we would have these majority/consensus discussions over and over again

Huh?!? I thought you were in favor of smooth, seamless diplomacy 48 hours to poll every disputed issue does not seem like smooth diplomacy to me.

Polls should only be used as an absolute last resort. This issue has a pretty clear majority... so a poll is unnecessary. Just PM the rest of the team and ask them to vote against disclosure if you feel so strongly that the rest of the team would disagree.

BTW... no smileys or anything in your last few posts... I am not a psychiatrist, but I can sense anger... Its JUST A GAME!!!