Keep Playing or Start over?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Whythat, Jul 19, 2008.

  1. Whythat

    Whythat Chieftain

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    When you decide to go for a particular victory condition and decide early on that it can't be done do you keep playing anyway or start over?

    For me I'm playing the French and want to earn my first cultural victory. I quickly built the Colossus and the Great Library in the city next to my capital then realized that I had no hills or resources really around the city and since the first two wonders I've been losing most of my wonder races. I don't see how I am going to achieve a culture victory but I feel wimpy not playing it out.


    Do you keep playing if you think you can't win your chosen victory condition?
     
  2. timerover51

    timerover51 Deity

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    My view, which by the way is clearly in the minority on the forums, it that if you know you are going to loose, dump the game and start a new one. Why waste your time? Do not even bother saving the game.
     
  3. NickyH

    NickyH Bismarck with lipstick…

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    I agree with timerover51. Especially if it's a 20k game, I start over even if I realize that I won't have a chance to beat my personal best game. With other kinds of victory conditions, I usually don't start over.
     
  4. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    I am usually prepared to be flexible in what condition will apply but when you get a game that is just doing the deep six, I would not keep at it.

    I started one game that was to be a quick space race and I realized very early on that I had a perfect situation for an archer rush and a quick conquest victory.. yeah who needs a space station anyway when you can have carnage right here on earth? :lol:


    ... unless you feel that you can learn some new aspect of the game from what you have.
     
  5. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    I think it depends on the victory condition. For example, I think you probably figure out that you can't win earlier with a 20K condition than you would with conquest or domination. For your game, it sounds like 20K might be some trouble, but what about 100K? Is that still feasible?
     
  6. Greyhawk1

    Greyhawk1 King

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    Do you need 20k in 1 city and 100k worldwide for a culture victory? I have got over 100k before but the game didnt stop or anything.

    I normally just continue playing - I find it a challenge just to keep alive a lot of the time :D
     
  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    You need *either* 20k in one city or 100k on a standard-sized map empire wide... the 100k varies with map size. I do and would start another game if you don't like how it goes. But, with The Colossus and The Great Library (you've got a temple in your 20k city and a library by now since you've missed other wonder builds, right?) I think you've actually got a good shot at the 20k game. Remember, as you progress through the game the number of years per turn decreases. You'll want plenty of high culture medieval wonders. What level of game?
     
  8. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    For the Civ-wide 100K (so to speak) victory you also need to have twice as much culture as the next other Civ. I had a game where they would not give me my win and that is where I discovered that little 'addendum'.
     
  9. Whythat

    Whythat Chieftain

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    100K is only feasible but I'd have to grow my kingdom. My "goal" was to see if I could win with only seven cities with the 20K victory. I think Domination and the space race are both within the realm of possible victories but I've done those a few times each so I wanted to try for my first 20K on Monarch.

    For me on a standard map domination takes around 25 hours of game time (at 2 hours a day its two weeks for each game). I want to see if I can figure out how to build a cultural victory in half that time.
     
  10. timerover51

    timerover51 Deity

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    Your problem with getting a faster game is that culture is a factor of buildings and time. Doing it with only 7 cities puts a big premium as well on resource location, city placement, and the AI letting you alone. Remember too that a 20K win is 20K in a single city, not empire wide. A culture production of 70 per turn in one city means close to 300 turns of game time to achieve a win. Some of the early Wonders, that have the longest cumulative effect, which is what you are looking for, have limited availability. The Colossus and The Great Lighthouse have to be built on the coast, limiting your resource base. The Hanging Gardens requires Monarchy. The Statue of Zeus requires Ivory. Shakespeare's Theater, a good source of culture, moves your city up to metropolis, which means dealing with pollution, diverting workers from other tasks. Overall, I figure that culture victories are the hardest to achieve, because of the cumulative nature of culture. You build and you wait.

    As for 100K, even on my MODDED maps, with boosted resource and terrain production, and using accelerated production, I normally hit victory point, space race, or domination before I hit 100K culture. The key there is the time factor, culture being cumulative, the others being a more a matter of how aggressive you are or how fast you progress up the tech tree and how fast can you produce space ships parts. Since I also limit the number of AI in the game, that also plays a part in the domination victory speed. Switching to standard production rates may slow that down a bit, but I also play on huge maps, so the accelerated production may balance out, as you play on standard size maps.
     
  11. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    I'm not much of a culture player, but I've got a hunch that timerover51 has hit the nail on the head.
    With only 7 cities and shooting for a 20K victory, well, that's going to be tricky, especially if you're far along into the game. I would suggest posting a save. Like I said, I'm not much of a culture player, but I suspect that some of the players who are better with culture than I could better assess your situation if they could actually look at the save.
     
  12. Whythat

    Whythat Chieftain

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    I've grown slightly over the 7 I originally tried. I had to drive back the Americans a bit. And ended up keeping some extra cities. And then I had no Salt Peter so I might need to dive in the American's land again.

    What triggers the SGL's that build my wonders so quickly?
     
  13. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    SGL's are only available in C3C and may appear any time you are the first to research a tech. IIRC, the chance of getting one is 3% for non-scientific civs and 5% for scientific ones.
     
  14. Whythat

    Whythat Chieftain

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    And only SGL's can hurry a wonder? Or can military leaders as well?

    I'm up to 11 cities and fighting a war with the Americans. (They started the war but I need their Gun Powder.
     
  15. timerover51

    timerover51 Deity

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    Military Great Leaders can hurry a Wonder in Civ3 Vanilla, but not Civ3 Complete, so it depends on which version you are playing. The problem with fighting a war when trying for a culture victory is that in a war, you are building military units, not adding culture producing buildings. The more military that you have to build, the harder it is to achieve a culture victory because of the culture per turn and time relationship.

    To check how you are doing, subtract the current culture level of your highest culture-producing city from 20,000. Then divide that amount by the number of turns remaining. If the resulting number is significantly higher than your culture production per turn for the city, you are going to have a very hard time winning on culture. If the number is lower than your current culture production per turn, you will win as long as you do not loose any culture producing buildings. If it is close to the required number, then building military units definitely works again you, as you are beginning to slip behind in the production curve.
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    In terms of time, unless you have a really slow computer, as long as you can win, you can certainly do so.

    Timerover51,

    This might hold for some maps on higher difficulty levels, but in general I don't think so. You don't need to build much military or work alliances all that often (Emperor on down at least), war that much, you don't need many workers as it doesn't matter if most of your cities work out as unproductive, as long as your 20k city works out as productive, you don't need to micromanage all that much since you focus on your 20k city, and you don't need to trade technology for other tech or gold all that much... and pretty much don't want to do so also. So, in terms of many factors, a 20k game actually works out easier.

    Aabraxan,

    I've played plenty of 20k (no 100k) culture games and I have to disagree. What resources do you really need in a 20k game? Believe it or not... *none*. I DO mean this. Sure, iron works as nice, but starting wars makes the AI more likely to attack you... what you don't want in a 20k game. Same for horses. By the time you hit the industrial age, when resources matter more, you pretty much either have things locked up (at least in principle) or you don't. You can easily miss all three industrial wonders and still win a 20k game. Here's probably my slowest 20k victory on Monarch http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=280918 I didn't build any industrial wonders. I railroaded like 2 or 3 squares in that one, and I've played plenty where I didn't build rails (but in most of them I had more wonders than that game). I didn't have The Military Academy or The Heroic Epic either. I'll do a no luxury and no resource 20k game as a demonstration if you'd like.

    In Conquests SGLs can hurry a "Great Wonder" while MGLs can only hurry a "Small Wonder".

    Not necessarily. You can have all your other cities build units, while you 20k city builds culture. Or you might have The Statue of Zeus or Knights Templar to help out.

    You have to figure in factors like when buildings get 1000 years old to get a better idea on this. A temple produces 2 CPT at the start, but produces 4 CPT after a thousand years.
     
  17. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    (I've edited the part you quoted in an attempt to clarify it.)
    You may well be right. Like I said, I'm not much of a culture player. With that said, I went back and re-read my post and it's probably more true for a 100K VC than for 20K. It's quite likely that I was thinking about military expansion when I wrote that. I didn't make any statements about resources, though. Culture is a factor of buildings and time. Buildings: The only things that produce culture are buildings. Time: Those buildings accumulate more culture over time, as you noted:
     
  18. The Professor

    The Professor Emperor

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    As a rule, I prefer to play out whatever start I'm given, EXCEPT for 20k victories. For a 20k, you need to be able to build wonders much faster than the AI, since there will be six or more civ's trying to build three or four wonders, and you will want to build several of those wonders in the same city. So, I give myself permission to restart if my territory is less than ideal, or if other civ's get to the important wonders first, or if I start next to Germany or someone else that's really aggressive.
     
  19. anaxagoras

    anaxagoras King

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    Yes, if I can still pull out a win using some other victory condition. Ssometimes your chosen strategy just isn't in the cards (like the aforementioned 20K attempt when Germany is next door), so I will see if I can flex and win some other way.

    If it is pretty clear I can't win no matter what I do, though, I don't feel the need to drag it out and officially record the loss.
     
  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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