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keeping up tech in deity

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by greetswithfire, Sep 21, 2012.

  1. greetswithfire

    greetswithfire Chieftain

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    any tips you guys have on doing this...iv been watching some of the madjin vids and they are very good but you do you guys have any general milestones i should be aiming for?

    i have national college up by turn 90-100 which is standard i heard

    usually i can only found about 5-6 cities on a standard map so my route is tradition - hopefully rationalism..then im usually funnelled into autocracy which is nice because im lagging culturewise and can usually beat up/am fighting my neighbour

    my trouble begins in the late game where i start getting vastly out-teched..i have to bulb my GS to keep up decently on the military side of things...but once flight happens my invasion plans grind to a halt cause i get bomber spammed by the AI

    i use specialists in my universites etc..but usually end up around 250-300 beakers per turn and it stagnates past then

    i cant sign alot of RA because i get denouced even though i only pick a fight with my most aggressive neighbour

    in short i see rome building SS booster and i havent even completed refrigeration!!

    any tips would be great thanks
     
  2. curwen

    curwen Chieftain

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    the only time i ever kept pace in tech at deity was when i had the religious trait INTERFAITH DIALOGUE... and i used it on other civ great cities (25+)... i generaly try to be one tech behind IN MY SPECILATY (cultural/science/production whatever i feel important) and i am far behind in all other... and even that is hard. i often fight unit with units which are 2 tech ERA behind ... always experience your units at deity it is not hard you are nearly always at war with someone ;)

    the only tip i can think of is always build cities near a mountain (for observatory) that help a lot even if it is on the wrong tech tree ... or
     
  3. Silverfuturist

    Silverfuturist King

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    Here is what I do to get 1000+ beakers per turn on deity. Got some ideas from tommynt and few others on civfanatics. I find the players who are good and read all their posts, most posts here are noise (not making any judgement on noise.) Last deity science win I was over 1200 beakers per turn (went Inca, I just love their incredible production and start bias - plus saving lots of money on roads. With start bias and hill movement, great at defending vs enemies in start hard to attack.)

    Here is my post from "deity challenge" where no trading with AI allowed except lux-for-lux: (played an isolated start, I wanted to see how I tech vs AI.)
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=473761

    Policies:

    *Go strict liberty, and delay building monuments in my other cities until I know that my first policy after liberty will be rationalism. Once in renaissance culture building very important. Had 6 cities. Building settlers without liberty takes way too long I think. Longer settler build time means longer stagnation time and hammers wasted. You will have to buy some tiles as borders grow slower, but you are saving $ for not having to maintain monuments.

    *After liberty, take left hand side of rationalism for sci bonuses

    *In industrial age, open order then go for 25% sci from factories

    *Rationalism finisher or more Order for production/gold... still playing with both. The 2 free techs require 3 rationalism policies... for 2 policies I can get to massive production with order, and then get the happy bump from rationalism. For me, the bottleneck has not been 2 techs but getting Apollo/space parts/ hubble ASAP (even with bulbing hubble with my GE from faith, it still takes a few turns.)

    Religion:
    Getting 10% growth bonus pantheon is a big deal for me, AI doesn't seem to value as much as I do.
    Don't even need religion, just need lots of faith! Even in a low faith game I can buy 1 great sci (need to open rationalism) and 1 great engineer (need to open Order.) In a high faith game, 3 great sci and 2 great engineers. These great people make a huge difference. Caution: you can only buy great ppl with faith in cities that have a religion.

    Specialists: this is the key, and why rationalism needs to be open ASAP. Cities must be big enough to fill all science slots, still have production and hopefully still grow some.

    Bulbing: timing is very important. Sometimes a great scientist has to be bulbed to get a tech to survive, but saving as many as u can for 1000 sci per turn is a big deal.
     
  4. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    Eternal peace maps kinda shift the deity meta game to a completely different world. While it may be beneficial to practice on "easier" maps, I sadly don't think it's as simple as what Silverfuturist depicted under most played conditions.

    I would love to see the results on that linked thread with regards to an all-land or even a continents map though it appears really interesting to see if it's actually viable to win a deity where wars occur disregarding completely turning AI bonuses to the human players' advantage.

    I'm not an outstanding deity player (at least not anymore as I've only picked GnK 2 weeks ago after 8 months off civ5) but here are a few tips I can give.

    1 - If you start the game with no defensive barrier nearby (near coast/mountain chain), expect early DoWs and focus towards capitalizing/expanding over those battles as opposed to going for a standard tall science. As odd as it may seem, very often, only planting 1-3 cities and winning a few over war will often be less detrimental to your relationship with other AIs than trying to expand before all of your borders are shared. All you need is enough hammers for a viable army. You can then just annex the better cities for your tradition benefits (I believe they do gain the benefits only if they get annexed but someone could correct me on that, I don't have any spare game to try it out)

    2 - With tradition play, unless the 5th and 6th city placements are god-like, or are "well behind" a closed border barrier you've created, just don't plant them. Every additionnal city increases the hostility of enemy AIs, particularily more expansionnists (right about any civ who opened liberty tree) and any neighbor regardless on expansionism trait. As a matter of fact, sometimes it's wiser to hold off and run a 3-city science game so that you retain significantly more RAs

    3 - Pay close attention to AI-AI relationships. It is often a better choice not to accept a DoF from a civ that is hated by others...at least not immediately. If you let it slip, odds are you'll be able to befriend the other "team" of 3-4 civs. More often than not, you will be able to ask for DoF with the original civ you denied and get it through as well afterwards. Basically what I'm saying is, sometimes, befriending a particular civ will lead to mass denounce/hostilities which you could save by skipping a single DoF.

    4 - Last thing I can think of is handling growth/picking city placements with regards to it. I still haven't gotten used enough to GnK for BPT benchmarks but I recall my last OCCish (didn't check box, cities i earned through war I sold or razed) I had over 600 BPT with only 1-2 settled GS (my bulbing knowledge was off from vanilla so I hoarded 7-8 GSs for a while in case while toying with the game). Halting city growth can have a substantial compound effect over the course of the game, especially in your capital (or whatever other city you threw NC and settled GSs). Pantheon or religion can help this a lot. Early granary/watermill too. Beelining civil services after philosophy to pump those 4 food river tiles as well. Last but not least, look for maritimes CSs above all for tall science based victories. It's always very tempting to keep paying for allies you got for cheap via quests but sometimes it's best to let an ally go to spend on a maritime.
     
  5. greetswithfire

    greetswithfire Chieftain

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    thanks for the tips..i do admit i dont give enough attention to the maritime civs and capital growth suffers because of it.

    i noticed in madjins vids that he often settles GS up until a certain point and then hordes them for bulbing unison with the oxford free tech..but the question is if i am fighting a prolonged war with an aggressive neighbour is it wise to bulb towards a specific military tech that would allow me to turtle? or should i bulb towards maybe plastics for the research labs and simply mass cheap ranged units

    i guess im maybe trying to play to balanced of a game..in deity is it essential to have your victory conditions decided upon with the first 100 or so turns?
     
  6. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    Hrm as I said my knowledge base isn't what it was for vanilla since I've really only came back casually to GnK but from what I get, the shifting point to where the total beakers from bulbing will roughly tie what you'd get from settling is around when you can do over 300 BPT. Which is likely the behavior you are seeing from MadDjinn. The exact turning point is likely a little higher but depending on the situation bulbing key techs can turn into greater benefits than say a 10% total beaker earned from settling over the next 80-100 turns the game has left to last.

    The victory condition isn't set in stone within the first 100 turns but it is generally much easier to work towards a specific VC from even say turn 40 on (basically from when your exploration can give you insights on wether you will ICS/4 city/1-4city warmonger to expand etc.

    As a general statement, if you wish to leave more VC open you need to approach the game in a warmonger perspective and try to capitalize on that. If you don't have a sizeable army to upgrade from education and on, odds are you won't have the gold availible for a while as RAs and CSs are pricy and you most def can't giveup RAs so that locks you into a more passive-science VC approach. On the other hand, if you've expanded some and still have decent army size (or enough of extra cities that were annex-viable to build fast), then you already have more gpt for a diplo game, more science potential although this won't show immediately out of the war and can still go for domination.

    The only truely VC that you can't not plan ahead is culture really.


    I used to work mostly on developping generic approaches leaving most VCs availible back in vanilla but I have to admit the changes to GS bulbing, the small relative nerf of NC and the introduction of faith really shifting the overall balance feels to have rounded out the game much more to where it is much more an action-reaction type of game aka you can't gain an absurd tech advantage early in the game and just ride the wave till the end (unless you play babylon).
     
  7. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    RAs are pretty powerful at Deity. Just 2 or 3 of them per wave can grant you quite a lot of beakers because they tech as hard as you(bonuses per civ).

    Tradition is better in term of research speed in the beginning until Public schools. If you play under Liberty, you should at least get 6 cities by your own. Just make sure to not be dogpiled by other AIs if you start with many neighbors.

    If you are pretty isolated Liberty is naturally better since you have less traders to make enough :c5gold: to buy settlers and workers. With crowded map you better go with Tradition. Build 3-4 cities and reach a good landmark in term of military stuff(UU, etc.) then build a more advanced army to make some puppets.

    Quite a lot of choices to make depending of your environment. There is no magic formulas.

    But your first step is getting NC after 3 to 6 cities built and all under 100 turns.
     
  8. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    OCC until Artillery would result in a domination win.
     
  9. playshogi

    playshogi Emperor

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    Details??
     
  10. Avatan

    Avatan Warlord

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    I must confess I'm more of an immortal player, but here is a few tips I haven't read yet:
    - beeline writing, then philosophy, then astronomy, then education, then scientific methods, then plastic and have the gold to rushbuy the sci buildings in your top cities. Don't forget to assign sci specialists in your tall cities as soon as possible.
    - if you went tall a great way to enter renaissance early is too slingshot astronomy. You tech to education and the maritime techs, as soon as you get it rushbuy universities and build Oxford as you research compass. Bulb a very expensive astronomy (10 turns +) and enter renaissance circa turn 100-110, just for the second tree.
    It will leave you rather defenseless so get those CB by the tons also.
    - prepare the tech tree to be ready for the rationalism finisher by being able to tech very expensive techs (nanotechnology jump for example). This one is rather obvious.
    - jungle + trading post are needed. Try do settle cities near mountains for observatories. Try to not lag too much culture wise.
    - for when bulbing or planting just do the math. A bulbing is about 6 turns of sci and an academy is 25 in a cap with universities + research lab + national college, 30 if you got an observatory.
    Always assume it will be all over at turn 250. So let's say you make 200 bpt at turn 150, then planting will give you 2500 beakers and bulbing 6*200 = 1200. The turning point depends on your bpt, and also a race for a wonder.
    - if you're doing good in science you can attempt the leaning tower -> GE -> porcelain tower -> GS. But maybe in deity it's wishful thinking, in immortal I can pretty constitantly succeed.
     
  11. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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  12. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

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    But Bonaparte, how will this deal with those super science runaways with the monies to rush buy 56 Bombers or Fighters per turn?
     
  13. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Perhaps a little diplomacy would help out here. Of course, you cant take one strategy and apply it to a map and expect it to work every time.
     
  14. greetswithfire

    greetswithfire Chieftain

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    the thing is that in deity i will always have to detour to machinery once the AI hits civil service because a standard pike will tank well vs comp bows if he has a terrain bonus.

    here are my options and the limited ways iv found to deal with them

    - if in a prolonged war with an aggressive AI there's a golden series of turns where you must either get ironworking to take a few cities with swords/comp bows or pay another AI to declare war on the aggressive neighbour, otherwise im trapped in the annoying cycle of getting ridiculous peace offers despite the AI throwing endless units to their deaths against a well placed city...iv had some games where i was warring the United States for close to 75 turns because he coveted my lands and would not accept peace even though i had a strong army and good defensive position

    - hill cities are an absolute must for the frontier..if im going liberty i usually try to expand as fast as possible into resource rich areas, not close enough to the AI to be denouced, but they usually end up spontaneously declaring war anyway regardless of military strength

    - often its a good idea to capture city states near your borders if you cannot afford to maintain relations with them...once coup spam starts its a real pain in the ass to find a CS either raiding your workers or marching to your least defended city

    - if your not getting embassy offers from your neighbours around the standard deity time start pumping archers

    - xbows perform admirably against even industrial level units

    my main question is, is this the way deity is meant to be played? from almost a perpetual disadvantage in tech until you near the end of the game? i guess deity really is just a challenge on how strongly you can commit to a strategy because there is no half assing your gameplan from the outset..it seems you either commit to a science-centric civ, go tradition and turtle, or you choose a civ like japan and expand as conquer as fast as possible in the early game before you get steamrolled
     
  15. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

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    Huh? Composite bows vs pikes works fine. You definitely do not need Machinery to deal with them. Get walls and more ranged instead, and pikes of your own if really needed to defend.

    Again, you do not need Iron Working to compete with AI. A spear or a warrior works fine. Just crush the city defense with composite bows, and move the warrior/spear in for the kill in time. Pikes are better obviously and is on the way to education.

    If you want to get rid of wars, start moving into his territory after beating his initial rush, once he defends and you kill that defense, he will most likely want to talk proper terms. If you do not have the army to do that, sit tight until you do.

    Hill cities are good if you expect a warrior/archer rush, you can live with just walls for later rushes. But if the location is good, by all means settle on a hill of possible.

    No issues there. I do this myself :D It hurts your diplomacy though so if you want peaceful relations with AI's don't do it. Also consider focusing on the CS you want, buy influence to 85% spy chance, coup, and then spam gold on it. If you get 40+ more influence after coup, AI will most likely fail the coup, or stop trying until your influence gets lower.

    ? They should give you embassy offers, just lower than the usual amount.
    Unless they want DoF with you, expect war at any time if they are neighbors.

    Yep, but no need to rush machinery as you seem to think. Get this after Education or steal it from AI.

    In my science wins with no warmongering, I never catch up until I use rationalism finisher and oxford, and bulbs for the space victory. But then I pull ahead by a lot. The AI will get apollo done before me, but it won't get the last techs in time.

    You said earlier you had 200-300 science pr turn. This is low. I usually have 300-400 after public schools, and 600+ after Research labs at the very least. Grow your cities bigger and get rationalism policies faster. You have tons of stuff to work with regarding tech paths and city management it seems. Start there to get better.
     
  16. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I played an OCC diety game last night and stopped for the night on t216. It took me that long before I pulled in the #1 spot on science. I had RAs going with every civ in that one but my pop was low, so OP watch your diplo and try to trade something with everyone as much as you can. Also get out and scout, the sooner you meet them, the more turns you have to make them your friends.

    Be ready to denounce a civ in case you start losing friendship. Denouncing one bad guy civ will usually net you 2 or 3 friends.
     

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