1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Keshiks: Makers of an Empire?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Random Stuff, May 28, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Random Stuff

    Random Stuff Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    I have to wonder why Keshiks replace Horse Archer instead of Knights. The mongols made one of the worlds largest empire's, but in civ there unique unit can barely beat an Axemen.
     
  2. Dan Quale

    Dan Quale Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2007
    Messages:
    407
    Historical accuracy is probably the main reason, keshiks come way before knights, because the Mongols rose to power much earlier than the middle ages.
     
  3. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    6,923
    Location:
    Norway
    they should have just made them strength 8 without any other bonuses(cept 2 moves) and remove the city attack penalty to turn them into the truly fearsome unit they were(however it might not be too good for gamebalance ofc because combined with ger they can beat pretty much everything cept heavily fortified spears...
     
  4. nanoboy

    nanoboy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2004
    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Actually, the Mongol Empire arose in the late Middle Ages. Look it up.
     
  5. GrandSultan

    GrandSultan Full Time Hypocrite

    Joined:
    May 23, 2004
    Messages:
    141
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    Nanoboy got to it before me, but yes, the Mongol Imperium lasted from around 1200 to around 1400.

    They do need to be beefed up though; they are completley lackluster as-is. Not bad, but they should be better to reflect the whole massive conquests part.
     
  6. Jerrymander

    Jerrymander Epistemologist

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2007
    Messages:
    2,624
    Location:
    Hallways of Always
    Make them like Praetorians with two moves. :3
     
  7. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,177
    Location:
    STL
    They should just start with the mobility promotion so when they upgrade to Knights they still have the mobility. This would extend the usefulness of the Mongol units.
     
  8. Horizons

    Horizons Needing fed again!

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,340
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Not to mention that horseback riding is one of the least efficient research choices you can make in the early game, and all early mounted units are extremely easily countered.
     
  9. ac196nataku

    ac196nataku Noob

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    366
    Location:
    Riverside, CA
    KESHIKS SUCK!

    Why don't they replace knights? Horse Archers in general are totally lousy units and I typically build 0 all game.
     
  10. amaterasu

    amaterasu the true messiah

    Joined:
    May 6, 2007
    Messages:
    568
    Location:
    Rebelling
    ith a bit of help from the ger they can get 2 flamking promotions, that makes for quite a deadly unit!
     
  11. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,878
    Yes, I have wondered about it myself. OK, I am thinking what to do with them in a mod I baked just for my personal use... Maybe have them replace Knights and get a bonus versus Melee units? Thi is accurate historically, but we already have the Conquistador...
     
  12. Chemtech

    Chemtech Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    84
    Location:
    Ohio, U.S.A.
    I havent played Mongols since I installed Warlords about a month ago - but I remember basically winning a few games because of the start I got with them - if theyve changed them from vanilla then ignore all this.

    I had horses in my second city - I beelined horse riding and was cranking out Keshiks vs. archer defenders - I relieved Toku of 5 cities in VERY fast order.

    I guess since I dont bother with horse archers with anyone else that it might have been a one time fluke but I know I was able to secure a sizeable empire right off the bat with them.
     
  13. Dnomal

    Dnomal Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    466
    I've only played as the Mongols once before, and I didn't find the Keshiks particularly usefull, since it takes so long to research them, by the time you have the AI usually has spears, and the great powers of Theocracy and Vasssalage don't come in till later.

    I think previous posters have it right, they should have eight strength, to make them the powerful monsters they really were, building the largest land Empire in history isn't possible, since Knights and Spearmen arrive to early...
     
  14. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,417
    I've made similar complaints in other threads. Don't get me wrong, Keshiks are useful in the games if used properly; however, they are not as powerful as they should be. Praets are empire builders. Keshiks are far from it.

    The problem in fact derives from a number of misconceptions by the game designer(s):

    • Light cavalry is much less powerful than heavy cavalry? Heavily armoured mounted units are basically faster and more powerful melee units. In this sense they are better than light cavalry in unavoidable close range battles on flat lands. But with the most powerful composite bows, Keshiks can kill those well armoured and shielded units like sitting ducks. I can be naked but I can still kill a heavily armoured giant with a gun (naked gun?:crazyeye: ), so who is more "powerful"?
    • Light cavalry will automatically "evolve" into heavy units with better tech? It's true the more heavily armoured mounted units came later with better metalcasting tech, but if the true meaning of evolution is survival of the fittest, obviously the lighter units survive better in Asia. In Chinese history Jin, another nomadic tribe a few decades earlier than Mongols, has already used an army of heavily armoured horse units as their elite force (they were nicknamed "iron floating castles") Very soon they were defeated by a legendary Chinese general (Yue Fei) with a force of light infantry by targeting at the horse legs. Once these units start to fall down they simply crumbled like melt ice. The heavy units were also extremely costly to build and maintain. So it is the lighter units that proved to be more effective in large scale battles and survived.
    • Keshiks relied on sheer number? They were outnumbered in most battles especially early in their conquest. In fact, they were well-equiped, well organized and well disciplined. The great thing about light units is the ease to concentrate their force to make swift pin-point attacks at the sore spots of their enemies. This is basically the spirit of Sun Tze's Art of War.

    To fix this problem, Firaxis has to realize light and heavy mounted units are two parallel paths (although the heavy ones did derive from the lighter ones) with different purposes, not two distinct stages along a linear path. Keshiks were the most advanced units of the light path in cold weapon era, and under the right conditions (not trapped in close ranged combats) they could take the most advanced units of the other path, knights, for breakfast.
     
  15. Drahkkael

    Drahkkael Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    99
    What does it matter if they are an empire builder or not? It is pretty much impossible to sustain a huge empire early in civ 4...at least in my experience. In civ 3 i would just take over a few neighboors and i would be a colossus but in 4 this doesn't seem to be a good idea.
     
  16. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Messages:
    6,340
    Location:
    Columbus
    Keshiks don't prove very helpful in the Earth 1000 AD map, either. Whenever I try to make a Keshik Empire on that map I tend to get bogged down by the Caspian Sea or soon thereafter, and that's not including any conquest in Persia or the Middle East, and limited amounts in China. I've never found them to be a particularly fearsome unit to have to fight.
     
  17. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,107
    Keshiks have an "ignore terrain movement costs" whereas Mobility is "-1 terrain movement cost". Essentially, the Keshik will _allways_ move 2 space whereas the Impi (which has Mobility) will only move 1 point if it moves onto certain terrain like forested hills and what not.

    By giving them Mobility, they would loose the current bonus - and being able to rely on a definite 2 movement is a useful bonus. I wouldn't like them to loose this.

    I do find Firaxis's ignorance on the Keshiks to be rather annoying though and wish that they were more balanced with the likes of Praetorians and Redcoats. The Praetorians strength though, I think, is more about their longengevity than anything else.
     
  18. DutchJob

    DutchJob Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Messages:
    383
    Location:
    Westfriesland
    a Keshik Rush is a gamble. with the Immortals of Cyrus you know you'll be early enough for whatever. by the time you get a Keshik invasion force online too much spears could be walking around at the other guys' place.

    1 spear could eat away enough of your hero's to prevent a walkover. in most games i need a walkover to justify all the hammers invested.

    therefore i would't call Keshiks empirebuilders on a structural basis. you need some luck. not much cities on hills. no copper or iron for the other side, otherwise in a good place for a pillage mission etc.
     
  19. NYHunter

    NYHunter King

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    784
    I wish they would make the keshiks more powerful. I wish people would just stop complaining about "overpowerment". I don't even believe most of the things people complain as being overpowered really are.
     
  20. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,107
    2 Keshiks I find can take out a spearmen. I tend to have Keshiks in groups of two seperated by one tile and if a spearmen plucks one off, I come in and finish the spearmen off. This is after I have taken out copper/iron, so they slowly loose their ability to defend against them.

    I think the Mongols were made to be pillagers rather than conquerors too, which can be a little misleading.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page