1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Kill 1UPT, add city maintenance, and we have a winner

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by jjkrause84, Oct 22, 2016.

  1. Marquis Mark

    Marquis Mark Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    This is the exact difference - good call out. I prefer tactical combat personally (and like the new combat system as a result) but the tradeoff is strategic vs tactical here.

    I do think we need something to reign in ICS more effectively. I appreciate being wider than Civ5, but this is a place (with gold-based City Maint) IV really had the sweet spot.
     
  2. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,182
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    At the end of the day, I feel like this is a concern Moderator Action: <snip> discussion as it has nothing to do with the game itself , but a continuation of an ongoing complaint by a small minority about 1UPT. And you see a lot of the stock arguments against Civ5 repeated here from people who haven't bought the game.

    So, it's kind of hard to discuss reasonably when the other side is dug in and is nursing a grudge. The OP title says it all and roughly translates to 'I wan't Civ4 in HD'

    Moderator Action: Please do not characterize another poster, post or thread as trolling.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2016
  3. PreLynMax

    PreLynMax Your Lord and Master

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,325
    Location:
    In the depths of computer hell...
    So... make it just like Civ 4. Why don't you just ask to revive that horrid slider system as well?
     
  4. gaiko

    gaiko Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    220
    +1 absolutely. And it's not a question of 1UPT vs. "SOD". Nor are the alternatives "genius AI" vs "brain-dead AI". These are all straw man arguments to convince you to settle for a less-than-optimal result given the well-known business conditions. There are other alternatives, please refer to imagination. For example, it is easy to seen that the AI is unnecessarily saddled with a logic processing load when it has to track the movements of individual units spread out over 2D hex space. Not to mention how 1UPT slows the game for the user.
     
    jjkrause84 likes this.
  5. gaiko

    gaiko Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    220
    I think by now the irritation revolves around a refusal to think or use imagination. Is this a majority or minority? I don't know.
     
  6. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,182
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    There are polls out there that show 1UPT is not really a chief complaint with Civ5 and from what I've seen of 6, tactical level decisions are better.

    I also tend to roll my eyes a little bit about people bragging about how great the AI was before 1UPT. It was mostly pretty standard stuff that is predictable and can be beaten with a different set of strategies. I tend to get into trouble her for ascribing motive for certain complaints, but I think we're long past the point where we can blame bad AI to 1UPT considering what came before wasn't that great, and 1UPT tactics have improved a lot since 2009 when the developers legitimately struggled to implement it as well as they could have.

    I see a lot of straw men and rose colored glasses being applied. So it's not so much the lack of imagination but unwillingness to move on. If they had botched 1UPT in Civ6 and somehow made it worse than in 5, that' a legitimate whine , but this is just ref-litigating old battles that was settled. At this point people who like SoD aren't going to change their minds and the majority of players who are fine with 1UPT or like it will continue holding those opinions.

    All this thread is achieving is group therapy for people who agrees with the OP, which I guess is fine, but the nastiness is back and it really don't need to be. There's no reason for this thread to be here tbh.
     
    Nefelia likes this.
  7. wiggawuu

    wiggawuu Warlord

    Joined:
    May 25, 2016
    Messages:
    142
    your not gonna get a majority of people on these forums wanting SODs back. Most poster are immature young kids that think Civ 5 is the greatest game ever. Just go to civ reddit.

    Moderator Action: Please do not troll in the forums. leif erikson
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2016
    stiiknafuulia likes this.
  8. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,285
    That's not really true. The real world doesn't have city establishment supported from central funds held in coffers in the capital, and the 'distance from capital' modifier doesn't really have any sensible justification unless you imagine it as the impacts of corruption. Never mind that cities in the real world evolve from existing settlements and only grow to become cities if that's economically viable.

    As for Civ V, the only real issue is semantic. "Happiness" works even less well as a name for what the mechanic wants to represent than as a name for the public order mechanic in Civs I through IV. It's not even closely related to that mechanic. In concept you have a pool of resources that you can expend either supporting the growth of a population in a few cities, or spread more widely at the cost of inefficiency (the extra penalty for settling new cities). If conceived as a maintenance cost for supporting the population ir makes a reasonable degree of sense, at least as much as the Civ IV system.
     
  9. Slayan

    Slayan Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    162
    If you want more unit micro-management Paradox has some games for you :nono:
     
  10. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    13,124
    Location:
    Sitka District
    You are missing the point. The AI was never great in civ, can't be realistically given the lax standards of the industry and consumers in general. It is that in previous games, AI was actually dangerous or challenging at times. Here and in Civ V it is just a tedious obstruction. Case in point, after I fought off a dual declaration of war while 3/4ths of my army were 10 turns away exploring I instantly realized nothing has changed from V.
     
    jjkrause84 likes this.
  11. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,182
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    No I understand it. I think your anecdote misses the point. Go back to the Civ3/4 Stories and Tales forums and there's tons of stories with exactly the same situation you've described. I think that is exactly the kind of experience the devs want to recreate.

    My point being if you're going in with an unrealistically high standard being you don't like 1UPT , you're just seeking confirmation bias. I mean, some of the SoD exploits against the AI were so ridiculous that I have a hard time believing you actually believe what you typed.
     
  12. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    13,124
    Location:
    Sitka District
    It's been a while, so remind me what exploits exactly? Early axe spam, arty scoot n shoot? I remember being overwhelmed several times by DoWs because you couldn't handwave away enemy stacks that easily if you were fighting on several fronts.
     
  13. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    I've been looking for a place to post this...

    " align="" border="0" />
     
  14. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    26,701
    Location:
    Plymouth, MA
  15. kroket

    kroket Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2009
    Messages:
    112
    Location:
    Holland
    I still say a Total War like system of Armies would be ideal. Armies could get bigger through the ages. Like 5 units in prehistoric - 10 classical --- 30 in modern
    They already have armies but it seems its 3 units max not 30... You d have to create armies with different max compositions. Like 20 infantry + 5 cavalry + 5 archers or something. Or 12 + 8 + 8 + 2 support
    Certain cards + techs researched + civ bonuses could alter those things. Those limits means there is a limit to stack of doom and AI can still handle it better
    The combined armies means less moving around the troops than now. I dont want to be moving around my units for 90% of playing time late game... If 30 is too much even 10 would be better. Just not making combined units weaker than they do now.
    You d clean up the map clutter while avoiding true stacks of doom.

    Another nice gameplay concept here could be each army is led by a captain - general (you have to build) or great general. Each great general could give unique bonuses to an army
     
    plasmacannon likes this.
  16. Nefelia

    Nefelia Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    458
    This is a really odd complaint about Civ VI, given the introduction of districts.

    Civ VI is unique, as your ditricts (and thus the buildings you can build) are a scarce resource. You need to put in a lot of thought about not only what districts a certain city should have, but the balance of districts throughout your empire as well. In this area, I feel that Civ VI is significantly better than both Civ IV and Civ V.
     
  17. Chinese American

    Chinese American Hamtastic Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    Chinatown, USA
    Districts only happen scarcely. Sure you have some decision making with districts, but that's one-time thing per district. It's "fire-and-forget", very little involved.
     
  18. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,004
    Location:
    Cold Country in Europe
    I'm moving from the entrenched extremes here to what I perceive as the most pressing matter as illustrated above by @BurnEmDown:

    Civilian units blocking everything. Less a problem since V as we have less workers around but still an issue.
    Maybe the strongest argument for a limited type of stacking would be how the human player can abuse the AI by blocking units.

    How would it work? Let civilian units move a layer under the military units. Like how domestic units can share space but allow it with allied units.
     
  19. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    13,124
    Location:
    Sitka District
    District and unit costs are off kilter though. You can build around 4 or 5 military units while you get a single district off. It becomes much more profitable to simply 'steal' enemy districts rather than build your own. By the time those OP buildings with radius bonuses come into play you more or less have won the game.
     
  20. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,182
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    Playing ping pong with SoD by emptying cities in order then trapping stacks with your own stacks/armies in Civ3;
    Generally awful overseas invasion mechanics. The need for stacks and stacks of artillery to counter an enemy SoD, so the game devolves into how many artillery units you can build and spending 1 hour per turn whittling down those stacks.

    Collateral damage didn't change that, as it still pays to throw a bunch of that at an AI stack while the AI is running pre-scripted combined-arms mix.

    These are fairly commons strategies people have developed to counter AI SoD, there's probably more I don't remember since it's been about six years since i played Civ4.



    How do you steal districts if they are not in range of your city radius?
     

Share This Page