Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Neal, May 12, 2009.
Good to know that sitting Bull is not dead yet
Looking forward to the update!!!!!!
Can we win this?
(yes, this means I'm still interested! )
"Babylon has fallen." General Patton paced in front of his assembled troops. "But Hammurabi isn't licked yet. Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about Native America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bull. We have the finest food, the finest equipment, the best spirit, and the best men in the world. Why, by the Spirits, I actually pity those poor sons-of-. .. .. .. .. .es we're going up against. We don't want yellow cowards in this army. Just remember: no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
As Patton exhorted the troops deep in enemy territory, the people of Hawkeye sang songs and drew up posters cheering on the war effort:
Morale was flagging. The war economy was faltering. The tenuous beachhead in the Middle East could not hold out forever. What the people needed was Emancipation. And the only way Emancipation could be implemented without halting the wheels of industry was a Golden Age.
Meanwhile, the time for speech-making in Babylon had come to a close:
Hammurabi's assault was driven off with relative ease, but this only brought on the Starving Times. The Babylonians locked down the fields surrounding their old capital, allowing their brothers and sisters to starve for the sin of allowing their city to fall. Patton's troops, living in a world without supply lines or other such concessions to realism, persevered, and continued to be reinforced by boat.
By 1625, Flight had been discovered, and Airports were being built across North America. The Babylonian emperor, perhaps seeing the implications of this, or perhaps just finally prepared after a nationwide muster, set off a new series of furious assaults:
But, by all the Spirits, Babylon held! Seeing that Babylon, always a people for whom "bigger" meant "better," were researching massive Artillery, Native American scientists followed suit. The war with Babylon was becoming a tedious slog, but the tide could not be permitted to fully turn with a drawn-out detour through Electricity on the path to Radios.
In 1645, jazz great Miles Davis, with the support of Hawkeye scientists and Tenochtitlan businessmen, revolutionized the Native American musical scene with the release of his signature album, Babylon Blue:
The album's success could only be compared to that of the "Wyld Stallyns" debut centuries later. It was an era-defining cultural event. It made miners work harder and the pace of scientific research move faster.
Babylon Blue even cracked old Sitting Bull's stoic facade, leading him to soften his hard political stances in the name of harmony:
Well, harmony and efficiency. With colonies springing up across the Old World, an archaic devotion to the Way of the Spirit, particularly in the fanatical form worship had taken in recent centuries, was outmoded. The Caste System was abolished and every child was allowed to pursue his or her own destiny. The presses were once again allowed free reign in their editorials, and, in his most surprising move, Sitting Bull himself stepped down from his throne. The Tenochtitlan Times and the Islander Post-Gazette praised the changes, and expressed optimism that the new, leaner government might be able to break the stalemate in the Middle East.
With Democratically approved funds flowing across the empire, Airports and infrastructure were built almost overnight. Reinforcements came flying in from Blue Bomber, Brave, and Cahokia. General Patton finally felt confident enough to lead an expedition north, to Eshnunna:
It was a minor outpost, though one with production potential (see every other came where I've settled and/or captured that spot). Its main purpose was to remove the northern threat and potentially free up some food to allow Babylon to grow again.
The Mayans, impressed with the implications of Corporation and slightly miffed at their northern neighbors' decision to accept all religions as equal, decided to play hardball:
Yes... We will definitely be upgrading to 3.19 for the next game... That said, Corporation was a two-turn tech at this point, so the intrepid Native Americans would just have to do it themselves.
In 1655, Thucydides published a work which mortally offended the increasingly-reclusive Sitting Bull:
Since stepping down from his throne, he spent most of his days playing with his grandchildren in the garden while his son, Michael Bull, continued the family business. But this insult by this... this hack historian could not go unpunished. The Native American empire spanned a supercontinent, and had made not-inconsiderable inroads into Eurasia! Justinian's size was a house of cards built upon the backs of fractious vassals. Small wonder that Athens was well within Byzantine territory. Yes, Justinian and his craven subjects would pay.
Justinian himself continued the insult with his ridiculous offer for the secret of Flight:
Were it not for the delicacy of the operations in Babylon, the messenger would have been returned in a knapsack.
As the reinforced offensive forces that had been pinned in Eshnunna pressed south to rejoin the main army in Babylon, they came under furious assault:
Losses were heavy, resulting in the deaths of even a few newly-promoted Great Generals, but the force was once again united. They began pressing east, to Akkad.
Back in the Americas, a small expeditionary force brought down the Barbarian State and founded the new tributary nation of Cuzco:
It's true use this late in the game would be debatable, but it should at least pay for its own upkeep in the long run.
In 1685, a true bloodbath was narrowly averted. Or, some might say, postponed:
Justinian brought his raging Hellstack to the gates of Ehnunna, and his vassal Charlemagne had similar stacks squatting on the borders in Europe. A quick check at the Byzantine embassy found the place deserted, with only a quick note reading that they "had enough on (their) hands right now." Michael Bull, seeing that his inherited empire teetering on the brink of destruction thanks to his blustering father, knew that only that very same bluster could save him now.
"Mr. Justinian, we can both see your massive stacks of conventional troops stationed outside of my cities. What you can't see, though, are my own reserves, which, with my total air superiority, can strike anywhere, at any time. We're both reasonable men, Mr. Justinian. Contrary to my father's ravings, I have no quarrel with you, but you can surely see that your troop movements are causing my people concern. Now if you were to send a paltry tribute of, say, 40 gold over to Cahokia, and pull back your forces, well, my people would be mollified, your people could continue to live peacefully, and we can put this whole ugly episode behind us."
By all the gods (including those paltry Islam and Taoism gods that are worshipped in like three cities each), it worked! Justinian's will wavered and then broke, and his troops withdrew! Of course, it would only be a matter of time until his extensive Spy network would inform him that there was no such hidden reserve army, so, at best, Michael had only bought time. But with his production capacity, time was on his side.
The Battle of Akkad was intense. Each step by the Native American Army brought with it new attacks by Babylonian guerillas and insurgents. After years of pitched battle, the battered survivors managed to take the city:
Patton remained stoic as his men secured the ramparts. "War is hell" he was heard to murmur while standing atop a pile of rubble that had once been a Library.
Another stack, meanwhile, marched south, seeking to relieve Babylon's southern pressure by razing Dur-Kurigalzu:
But the Byzantine threat loomed. Those troops might be needed to ward off Justinian.
Michael Bull sent an emissary to Hammurabi to find out what, if anything, he would be willing to offer for peace:
Well, well, well. And, of course, if Babylon is willing to bow to us, he's also willing to bow to Justinian. So, while the deal has not yet been taken, it probably will be.
And so I've ended the round. We've won the war with Hammurabi, but the final conflict with Justinian might come sooner than expected.
Here's a look at the tech tree:
And the Diplomacy Screen:
As you can see, the big networks are us (with Pacal and, soon, Hammurabi), Hannibal's African Alliance, and, of course, Justinian's Evil Empire. So what do we do? Cheese out by demanding a pittance of gold every 10 turns? Send everything we have to defend our borders? Accept that our border cities are casualties of war and try to take Constantinople? We're at an interesting decision point, and I'm interested to hear some comments and arguments.
Oh, and lemme say, with our Siege of Babylon, that Protective was a BIG help.
Here's the save:
Ok, fast impressions:
-Babylon might cap in any moment to Justinian ( it should had been a hell of a siege in Babylon.... )
-Both Wang and Sury are gearing to war, and given their pet hates, they will fight each other. That will surely end with Sury capping to Wang
-Hannibal vassaled Zara. Shaka is the only african civ that is not his vassal
So, vassal hammy, heal, move to the babylonian India and strike Sury fast, faster than Wang anyway. Conquer his Indochina cities and cap him.Then maybe capping Wang, as you are already in the area. After that is Justinian bashing time
This game is basically over after Justinian is broken anyway.....
Don't forget to use a lot the airlift
And the writeup is online (finally)!
Go after the biggest dog on the block, use your military advantage NOW!!
You have Assembly line on them ALL Along with flight. Promote all to infantry, build factories if time, or just spam out fighters/infantry/artillery.
I think you nailed on the head, saying Justinian Vassals are a house of cards, look at that 'scary' stack he brought to you door step, if that's the extent of his strength, you can take him out, reverse colonize Europe, and push into Asia.
Hannibal's Pleased with you, I thought he'd have a go at Iberia, but since no, he may wish to join you in taking out Justinian.
Airports, Infantry, fighters, move to Marines to counter Artillery. Oh don't forget the Railroads over you lands, a gift to Hammurabi may help.
I can practically hear George C. Scott thundering out these lines! Great writing.
Are you using machine guns as stack/city defenders? I don't see any. They are extremely stout against gunpowder units. Too bad you don't have some CG3 grens to promote to MGs, but even stock drill MGs will totally pwn rifles and cavs.
You are about to grab AL, so I'd drop the slider to 0 (unless you have a GM ready to pop out of one of your GP farms) to build up some upgrade cash, and then take the Byzantine Bull by the horns. Infantry is a major tipping point in your favor, especially with no other civs having it. I'd also head for fascism before electricity - p-troops are simply amazing to use with air support. You'll grab land a lot faster with paras/fighters than you can with infantry/bombers.
Also, some spy points on Justinian would be helpful to see what he's researching.
Definitely cap Hammy. You've got the game sewed up.
Definitely take Ham's capitulation, then prepare for a battle with Justinian (I'd say use the cheesy demand trick until you feel ready to go to war.)
Don't think there will be time to take on anyone else before Justinian gets involved, but that's fine. With flight, assembly line, and artillery over him, this is the window in which to strike.
Agree to capitulate Hammy at this point. Might have some city revolt issues here and there, but seems to be a necessity before he joins the Justinian chorus. He can be a distraction in the upcoming epic war, and as such it might be nice to gift him some useful techs (though beware of him trading stuff you don't want traded). I think taking Dur-Kurigalzu is good as well - let that city deal with more of the Babylonian culture and possible revolts and allow Babylon to stretch a bit.
I would not take Charlie and Raggie too lightly in this case either. Both are middle of the road in score, but I would bet they have some pain that they can still bring. Can you get some planes to scout the group as you try to build up?
Strategy-wise, might be best to hit Justinian straight away. I realize the temptation to focus on Charlie's lovely cities, but if you can pare Justinian down a good ways you might be able to peel his vassals away and make peace with them - for pickings later on. Might allow you to better focus if it works, as as his vassals leave and bring down his own power numbers - he might be a candidate to vassal to you at some point.
This is officially the best write-up, walkalong game on this forum....where else can one get a "Patton", "The Godfather", and--AND!!--a "Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure" reference all in one rounds write up. Classic. Positively _CLASSIC_ Well done, as always, Neal.
This was a round worth waiting. Great storytelling
Strategy-wise, destroying the Byzantines is a way to go. Get a lot of infantry troops to Europe or Middle East and attack. Smashing the biggest capitulator will earn you a place at the top, and the other capitulators can't match the Family.
And, I have to ask; why does Patton have not one or two, but THREE Woodsman promotions? Those promotions do not help much on Earth map where the little pieces of forests that could be used as cover are cut down by 1000 BC...
Woodsman III gives +10% of heal rate on top of the medic line.
I am a (until now) silent fan and I just love your combination of storytelling and strategy tips.
As for strategy:
I'd definitely go for Justinian's throat right now. Why waste time sending your war-hungering hordes to asia when your chief adversary is right next to your new mesopotamian posessions, just waiting to gobble them up when you expand east?
Also - at this point I'd go for tanks and nothing else - and then roll over everyone; game over.
Cheers - and GL HF in the endgame.
Take out Justinian first, Wang and Sury are WAYYY to far in Asia, if Just can overrun a few cities your gonna have to march ALL to way back from Asia. Secure your border right now and THEN go forth and smash Wang and Sury. Also, hows your pacific navy right now? A marine assault on Seoul would be quite interesting...
re: Assembly Line- This might be a minor point, but I don't, in fact, have it on Ragnar. And he is part of Justinian's vassal network. So I don't think we can count on having it as an advantage on Byzantium when hostilities start up in earnest.
re: Machine Guns- No, I haven't been building them. You're probably right. They probably would have saved us quite a few casualties in the long march to Akkad, at the very least. With Infantry online, are they still worth building, or have they outlived their usefulness?
re: Paratroopers- I do love me some Paradrops on this map (especially around the Mediterranean). But I wasn't necessarily going Electricity for Radio. I had my eye on Industrialism. I would say that Tanks, Marines, and even the odd Battleship or two would outweigh Paratroopers, even if you count in the free Great General from Fascism. That said, it might be worth going for between Industrialism and Radio.
re: Research- Speaking of... would our commerce at this point be better used teching full-speed towards Industrialism or grabbing cash to upgrade Riflemen to Infantry?
re: Espionage- Yup, now that Babylon's licked, it's time to reallocate the Spies...
re: Effusive Praise- Well, shucks. Thanks, y'all. I try
This is truly an exciting game. Watching it with interest. Things still have got a semblance of competition at that point.
It all depends on WHEN you think Justin is going to attack. Sooner? Then go for upgrading, you're gonna need as much help as you can get!
Later? Go beeline industrialism, tanks are going to be god send for you right now!
If possible go Infantry ASAP and covert all Riflemen prior to the great Just-Bust! If other countries want to war themselves - fine. Let em. Asia is still too far and your troops will be way of to protect you against Just or his culture. Go Just as soon as your Infantry-Army is online. Go 100% Tax to transform troops.
Great round and one your best write-ups ever!
How did I missed that Justinian was with hands full?
Well, than forget a lot of what I said Cap hammy ( try to get a better city if possible ) and move north. Airlift some infantry to the cities you took form the celts in the mainland Europe too ( Ragnar and Charlie may drop by ). The good thing is that Hannibal is equally pleased with you and justinian , so he probably will not take a side in the war. Wang, like I said , is probably more concerned with Sury, so he should not intervene....
Fighting the justinian coalition from the middle east will be surely problematic. You surely need more troops in Europe ( btw a ship to cross troops between Great Britain and the mainland would be advisable ), since it will be a hard tast to aproach Justinian core either by Anatolia or by the Caucasus.
Techwise, bombers and tanks Justinian , in spite of being strong has no effective means vs air power ( better put those fighters to good use as well ). You could also use some MGs, as stated above
Just a last question... when was the last AP vote? I've gone in the log until 1600 and haven't seen any resolution..... You can definitely expect a resolution to stop the war vs someone soon, given the way the BtS AI is coded. That can be good, bad or neutral, depending on the field situation, but another break of 10 turns would be nice... 5 airports in the Americas *10 turns makes 50 possible airlifted units to the old world
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