King Spaceship in under <mumble> turns - a brief fiasco

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by HermannLombard, Nov 9, 2010.

  1. HermannLombard

    HermannLombard Warlord

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    I'm really interested in Marin Alvito's "Deity Spaceship in under 200 turns" strategy. Here's my attempt to pull it off at the lowly King level. I certainly don't expect to come in under 200 turns, but maybe I can keep it under 250. [As you may gather from the thread title, this didn't work out so well. I'd like some advice on how to do better next time.]

    My first game as Babylon, King, Continents, Standard Size and Speed. The starting position looks pretty good; here's the map at Turn 15:
    Spoiler :




    The map is rich in luxuries, with gold, silver, incense, and marble at near-ICS spacing around Babylon. Another silver and incense lie to the south within a reasonable distance, good trade bait. The only problem is the "wealth" of desert, but there are hills and wheat and oases out there. The other items are Japan to the SE and Rome to the SW. My intention is to settle a "spine" of ICS-spaced cities on or adjacent to luxuries down to the river in the SW to forestall Rome, then fill in, with intent to get some space as well as bringing luxuries online fast. So that would go incense/silver/adjacent to incense then two flood plain wheat, then pickup the gold, marble, and the second silver. [Memo: a warrior rush would have been difficult or at least slow because there are no close-by AI civs.] At this point we've researched Mining and Pottery and have Calendar in progress for Incense.

    Turn 21: the first Settler comes out, and my idea is to send him down to the southern silver where our warrior is healing, then use that city to build a settler for the SW while Babylon produces another for one of the more northerly luxuries. It only delays founding the second city by one turn.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 24: Akkad founded on Silver, starts a Warrior. Calendar complete. We'll pick up Masonry (for Marble) on the way to Construction, but once we finally have a Worker we'll want Animal Husbandry for the livestock (and incidentally to find horses). Since neither AI nor CS is nearby I guess Babylon will have to build a Worker, and I guess produce the second Settler first. Speaking of Workers, Akkad will have little food until those wheat get farmed, 15 turns to grow to Size 2. [Memo: send a warrior north, it's likely there's another CS up there.] Speaking of CS, our Scout has found three: Singapore, Budapest, and Monaco, so one of each sort.

    Turn 26: Barbarian time again. Our Scout stumbles across a pair of barb warriors far to the SW, but fortunately does so from a forested hill. At this point an Iroquois warrior also shows up to give the barbs something else to worry (about). More importantly, a lightly-damaged barb warrior emerges from the fog NE of Babylon, and in range thereof. My newly-healed warrior starts north from Akkad as the city opens fire.

    Turns 27-30: Humph. Babylon is starving thanks to that stupid barbarian sitting on my only 2F tile. The warrior arrives to put the barb out of our misery. On Turn 30 "You may adopt a policy" but I'm planning to hoard these until the Renaissance.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 32: As hoped, our Warrior finds a northern CS, Sidon (from whom we would not mind stealing a worker, since we don't care about trade with a militaristic CS). Unfortunately the Warrior also finds a barb encampment and two warriors. I belatedly remember to buy an oasis tile for poor parched Akkad. Wasted a few turns there!!

    Turns 33-34: 2nd Settler produced. 4 possible locations, gold, silver, incense, or marble. We have silver, the incense is out in the desert with no production, the marble competes with Babylon for hammers, so let's go for the gold...and start a Worker in Babylon. [I question this, should I produce another Settler? A warrior? Forget the warrior. A third settler could tap a new luxury or double up on silver, without needing a worker. However, the cities are woefully underdeveloped, and a fourth city will slow down SP generation.] Another subtle decision, early enough that it may matter: Babylon can grow in 16 Turns, while producing a worker in 12, or can stagnate and produce the worker in 10. Since it's my capital I'll let Babylon move toward growth, though I'll switch to a Settler before it actually grows. Speaking of warriors, Sidon shoots up one of the barbs, and our guy finishes him off, garnering a Medic promotion. [Earlier barbs gave him a Shock I promotion, and I forget why I chose the clear terrain promo...actually that's where I was fighting at the time.] Masonry completes, and it's 19 turns to Construction and the Classical Era or 7 turns to Animal Husbandry and those Babylonian sheep. Lamb it is.)
    Spoiler :



    Turn 35: Dur-Kurigalzu founded (say *that* name three times fast!). We won't sell the gold or happiness will go into the red. Maybe that would be reason enough to build a Settler rather than a Worker in Babylon. Meanwhile, the baby city has +3 food, +2 production, and +3 gold. Nice to have gold and fish (so now we want Sailing). In the south, Akkad is firing on a passing barb. Meanwhile, our Scout has discovered Ragusa, a second friendly Maritime, south of the Iroquois.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 37: Our Warrior has healed, and has three choices: hang out, hoping to bag a worker from Sidon, attack the barb camp in the forest (not a paying proposition), or head south for general use. South it is. Meanwhile Akkad has grown to 2, and switches from Warrior (7 turns) to Settler (23 turns). This leaves us very vulnerable, I suppose.

    Turn 40: Our Scout meets a Napoleonic Warrior. There goes the neighborhood (as if Oda and Augustus were not bad enough).

    Turn 41: "An Unmet Player has entered the Classical Era." Hey, we're only about 10 turns off.

    Turn 45: We finally have a Worker, who heads for the sheep. Now I could immediately start a Settler (which the other two cities are already building), or start on a Warrior (6 turns) while growing to Size 3 (4 turns). Let's go for growth and a warrior.

    Turn 46: Our Scout opportunistically attacks and kills a damaged barb warrior, freeing a worker that belonged to newly-discovered Cape Town. It would take years to get this worker back to Babylonian territory, so we return it; we are temporarily friends of Cape Town (very temporarily, since we're at 35/30 and hostile Cape Town will drop at 1.5 per).

    Turn 47: Worker starts on a pasture. Woopee.

    Turn 50: Trade Silver to Hiawatha for 300 gp, enough to make Singapore an ally, at least momentarily...but it still makes no sense when two cities are producing settlers and a third is about to.

    Turn 51: Babylon produces our second Warrior, doubling our army. Woopee. Choice: Settler or Worker. The other two cities will produce Settlers in 4 and 5 turns respectively, and right now our Happiness is ONE. Make it a Worker, likely followed by a Library.

    Turn 52: Construction, and the Classical Era. Hiawatha enters the same turn. Maybe it's time to enable our UU by picking up Archery. It's only 4 turns...of delay for Writing. Hmm...

    Turn 54: Caesar and another Unmet enter the Classical Era. Our worker finishes the pasture, and moves to the flood plain for a farm for the capital...or for incense in the desert.

    Turn 55: Akkad produces a Settler; Settler & 2nd Warrior head SW, finding an injured barb warrior.

    Turn 56: Archery, start Writing (wanting Trapping and Sailing as well, who says there aren't choices to be made?) Complex situation! The barb warrior is on a hill next to the planned city site. There is a French warrior across the river, and a Roman spearman by the ocean. The Settler moves to the city site, but I guess due to ZOC cannot build. The Babylonian warrior attacks the barb, but doesn't quite kill it.

    Turn 57: The 1-HP barb captures the Babylonian settler, which is immediately recaptured by the Babylonians, incidentally promoting the warrior. Meanwhile Dur-Kur finishes a Settler and starts another.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 58: Nippur founded on the river, starts a Monument. This city will have lots of food but may be short on hammers.

    Turn 59: A visit from Oda Nobunaga: "I'll be honest with you - I intend to destroy you along with everyone else." How nice. Then from Caesar: "I have been waiting a long time for this day. Now would be a good time to put your affairs in order." Maybe I shouldn't have built that city there...
    Spoiler :



    Turn 60: Borsippa founded on Marble. Akkad finishes a Warrior, starts a Bowman, also rushed a Bowman in Akkad. Nippur switches from Monument to Warrior (there may not be much point, since it's Warrior in 19, but it would be Bowman in 35). Babylon will complete its Worker. Borsippa starts a Bowman. Dur-Kur continues a Settler (due in 12). Sold Silver to Hiawatha for 300 and used that to rush a Bowman in Nippur. At least we'll have a bit of an army, with significant firepower.

    Turn 62: Writing, switch from Trapping to Wheel to get roads. Nicolaus Copernicus born in Babylon, and while it's tempting to start a Golden Age, we'll reserve him for later tech. Babylon also finishes a Worker and starts a Bowman.

    Turns 63-66: Not much going on. The Romans occasionally show a Spearman, then withdraw it, never coming within range of bowmen or cities. I'm hoping that the Romans will come to me; so far they've shown no desire to do so. No sign of Japanese. "It's quiet. Too quiet." Demographics are odd:
    Spoiler :



    1st in Land and Mfg Goods, last in Population and Approval, middling on Crops and GNP and Literacy. 3rd in Soldiers, and halfway between "best" and "average."
    Spoiler :



    Turn 67: Wheel, start Philo toward Education, with Trapping and Sailing pending.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 71: Babylon finishes a Bowman and optimistically starts a Library.

    Turn 72: First shots fired. Bab Warrior crosses the mouth of the river to a hill to draw Roman attention, then the Bowman from Nippur fires on the responding spearman as the warrior fortifies. The Roman attacks the warrior and is thrown back, almost destroyed.

    Turn 73: The Bab warrior finishes off the spears, then gets shot up by Antium and withdraws to Nippur to heal. A Roman Scout moves into view, in range of two Bowmen. Incense plantation finished outside Nippur.

    Turn 74: The Bowmen destroy the Scout. Dur-Kur finishes a Settler, starts a Scout (wishing to start a Colosseum).

    Turn 75: Someone finished the GL and entered the Medieval Era. Yikes! Philosophy finished, start Theology.

    Turn 76: Founded Sippar on the northern Silver, so now have Silver to sell. Started a Colosseum, a long-term project!

    Turn 77: Akkad finishes a Bowman and starts starving because Sippar took their oasis to the north. In response, buy the oasis to the south. Start Colosseum.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 78: Advance on Antium, putting two Bowmen on the heights, one more opening fire from the west, with warriors on both flanks.

    Turn 80: Swapped a warrior for a spearman on Turn 79, now took Antium with the other warrior after bombarding with three Bowmen. Try Annexing to pump Settlers, planning to raze and replace with a city directly on the spices NW of Antium. Dur-Kur finishes a Scout, starts a Settler.

    Turn 81: Babylon finishes Library, starts Colosseum. I can't put two Scientists in the Library unless I want to abandon all production. One of the population has to work on food.

    Turn 82: First trade route, Babylon to Akkad, and working on leg to Nippur.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 83: Signed RA with Napoleon. Borsippa finishes Bowman, starts Monument. Our new Scout approaches Japanese border and finds no approaching units. Curiously enough, one Japanese Warrior appears approaching Antium from the SW. [What's he doing over there?] Antium and its Bowman fire on the warrior, and the Bowman picks up the Barrage I promotion.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 84: One wounded warrior was enough for Oda, and he offers 100 gp plus 3 gpt for peace. Fine with me...but what sort of samurai gives up after a single wound? Disgraceful! Meanwhile the Romans have lost several units and a city, but do not sue for peace. I'm tempted to push on to Rome but that would likely further unhinge my attempt at this strategy.
    Spoiler :



    Actually it's likely that my attempt is already unhinged. I have diverted too much production to military uses, and worse, I rushed two Bowmen, and that's the equivalent of an alliance with a Maritime. Here's the Strategic View:
    Spoiler :



    Turn 85: OK, now the Romans sue, with 150 gp, 5 gpt, and open borders. Works for me.

    We defer another Policy Nippur is half-way done (7 turns) with a Monument, but there seems to be little reason to complete it. OTOH, it will take 38 turns for a Colosseum or 20 for a Library; since the Library can be completed in finite time, switch to that.

    Turn 86: Interesting: we now see twice as many Japanese warriors as we saw during the whole war (we see two, in other words).

    Turn 90: Oda and an Unmet enter the Medieval Era. Am I the only one who has not?

    Turn 91: We re-up the deal of Silver to Hiawatha, and can now afford a CS alliance. Singapore is Maritime and Friendly; go for it.

    Turn 92: Trapping. (We spent several turns making a little progress on techs that we do not want from our RA with Napoleon.) Now back to Theology. Singapore wants a road. How nice. Only six tiles from Antium...which is not yet reached by road. Now Open Borders with Napoleon, which could be useful because my scout is down by Orleans.

    Turn 94: The peace treaty with Japan has expired. Let's see what they have in mind.

    Turn 95: Babylon finishes the first Colosseum, and starts a Settler. The peace treaty with Rome ends.

    Turn 96: Dur-Kur produces a Settler, starts a Colosseum (again, 37 turns). I have two more Settlers coming up in Antium and Babylon. I can provoke another war with Japan by building two on the Japanese border, incidentally bringing my first horses in my radius.
    Spoiler :



    [Good thing I wasn't trying for a horse rush!] If I plop the third on the Cotton SW of Antium, I'll probably provoke Napoleon as well as Augustus. Pity. Meanwhile, Singapore's gold frees mine for trade, and I sell it to Oda for 200 (the most I could get out of him; he must be grumpy for some reason). That gives me 580gp, so I could get a brief alliance with a Cultured CS, but in five turns I'll need 250 to renew Singapore. Hold off.

    Turn 98: Theology, and welcome to the Medieval Era. Antium completes a Settler and starts another. Settler and Bowman move SW toward the cotton, only to find a French Settler sitting on the spices next door to the cotton.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 99: Now a Roman settler moves onto the cotton! The French settler moves to the coast. Let's see...I could declare war on Rome, enslave his settler as a much-needed worker, and hope the French don't settle so close that I can't get the cotton. Let's try it.
    Spoiler :



    Turn 100: The French found Tours on the coast next to the spices. This forestalls my attempt to colonize on the cotton. I can still colonize adjacent, 3 tiles from Tours and 3 tiles from Rome. That would seem to guarantee war with France...not a desirable outcome as I'll be fighting Rome and Japan.

    So, Turn 100 with only 7 cities, not the 10 I would have wanted, +22 Science, remote from the +50 that might be desirable. One colosseum and one un-staffed library in the entire empire. +9 gold, +1 culture, zero happiness. This looks like a complete failure. Winnable? Yes. Spaceship in less than 300? Not a chance.

    I suspect that I had lost my way by the time I founded Nippur, back on Turn 58. I would appreciate guidance in where I went wrong.
     
  2. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    You can probably get a spaceship in 250 from where you're at. Things snowball in a hurry once the engine gets started.

    A quick rundown:

    - I see you building Workers/Warriors rather than Settlers in satellites. That's a big no-no. You have to take Workers from city-states and AIs. If you make a Settler instead early on, that city can make another Settler, the cycle repeats, and you start on your Colosseums a lot earlier. That lets you get Libraries up earlier, and start pushing Science.

    - The point of beelining Construction is to enable your cities to work on their Colosseums as they grow to 2, then start Settlers. You should be finishing Construction around turn 35-38. You can't afford to detour to stuff like Archery early on, because doing so causes you to waste Hammers. Animal Husbandry is about the only early tech that you can afford to grab away from the beeline, and that only makes sense if you have multiple tiles you can improve.

    Early Calendar is an error. Typically, you want to go for Pottery and Writing/Calendar right after Construction. The order depends on your Happiness. The situation you don't want to find yourself in is having to pick up Iron before Writing/Calendar, but sometimes it happens.

    - You desperately need a Maritime a lot earlier in order to work Hills for Hammers. Your Colosseums are taking forever because you can't simply work two Hills tiles and the city tile for 6+ Hammers. Even without improving the tiles, you get the Colosseum in 25 turns. That's much slower than you would prefer, but it's manageable.

    - When you're this hard up for Hills, you can't settle on them. You need every Hill you can find.

    - This is a pretty ugly map. You've got a big gap with no Hills whatsoever in the middle of that desert, and those Cows are in a spot where there are no Hammers available. I only see three natural production sites. One will be horrible until Engineering and then merely bad, and one is Antium, where Rome borked the placement.

    - If you want to take Antium, you really need to do it right when Rome settles it. That would mean being prepared with a host of Warriors ready to go between turns 35 and 50. It's not a bad site at all, but that late you'll have to raze/resettle it immediately to keep it from wrecking your Happiness. I'd resettle it one tile SE on the Forest, adding three Hills and denying them to Rome.

    If you want to make it in under 200 turns, you need a better map. You're also going to need to come up with a different military strategy than using Bowmen. The one piece of good news in this start is that you probably have a 6 Iron tile. Warriors -> Swords would be the way to stay alive here. You can have six Swords for about what you paid for those two Bowmen.
     
  3. EasyGoin

    EasyGoin Chieftain

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    I've been trying, and trying, and trying this strat to try to get it right in the early game and have come to a few conclusions. (I play on Emperor BTW, diety is probably better for this strat because of the extra workers and cities the AI gets, but my frustrations have kept me on Emp).

    1. First thing you need is 5-6 warriors.

    2. It is imperative to make early war on a nearby civ and kill them. I mean early like have capture their city/capital by turn 40. The only semi-successful games I have had I have killed a nearby civ. Basically you need to do this for living space and to eliminate a close competitor. Every game where I have not done this, the nearby civ stifles my growth, gets pissed at me when I hit about 7 cities, and eventually gangbangs me with any other rival civs because making coliseums and libraries keeps me behind on military.

    3. My best results have come from getting Iron working after roads, writing, and construction. When iron working hits (and I have a source of iron), upgrade your 5-6 warriors to swordsmen and go kill the next closes civ.

    4. If you get those 5-6 warriors out early enough, you can then just focus on infrastructure while they tear up the neighborhood. I usually get about 8 cities by turn 85 with about 25 - 30 science on a good start.

    This is the only way I have avoided getting dogpiled in the middle ages and losing my cities to AIs and keeping on reasonable pace. Note I have not made space in 200. I have made the requisite science in about 215, but between apollo program and the hammers needed to build the parts, I was on pace for about t285 :(

    Hope this helps
     
  4. E66man

    E66man Warlord

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    Something also important to remember is that these strategies ironically won't work as well for difficulties below Deity (and maybe Immortal), although your intuition would tell you otherwise.

    Two of the main components are stealing Workers & Cities from the AIs- at Deity, they have these resources available from the start for you to take, while at lower levels you are losing time producing them yourself or waiting around for the AIs to make them. Also, the AI has an easier time generating gold at the harder levels. After the Coliseums are started and a luxury-gathering tech is researched, I believe Martin prioritizes getting a Caravel out to find more AI trading partners so you can earn money for RAs and buying CS influence. At lower difficulty settings I find the AI seldom has enough money to make this as key a component of my strategy as it does at Deity.
     
  5. atteSmythe

    atteSmythe Warlord

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    I found this out the hard way, recently. :) The beginning game can be a lot slower without workers and gold to steal.
     
  6. Asti

    Asti Chieftain

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    But is it so slow it's harder to do an ICS on lower levels than the higher ones?

    I struggled with this strat on Prince when I tried it but that was some time ago when I didn't quite know how to pull this strat off without having a very unhappy empire. This post sums it(the happines thing) up very nice: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9884562&postcount=4

    Will give this a go next week on deity since I'm busy until sunday but I'll keep reading this thread since I already have learnt alot by the first two replies. :)
     
  7. atteSmythe

    atteSmythe Warlord

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    No. ICS takes a bit to snowball, at least for me. It's the other strategies that rely on taking starting resources from the AI that are difficult - warrior rushing the AI's first non-capital city (doesn't work when they start with only 1 settler), stealing AI workers (doesn't work when they start with no worker), even stealing CS workers (ditto). This slows down warrior rushes, though there's probably enough of a buffer between starting and HBR that there's not too much of an impact there.

    Selling early resources can be a problem when the AI doesn't get as much bonus gold. I've found myself with more luxuries than I could sell at full price, at least a couple times.
     
  8. HermannLombard

    HermannLombard Warlord

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    Likewise, and not just the first two.

    All the time after the early game...and at King the AI often doesn't have enough gold for full price anyway.

    My thought at the time was: "Good luck getting enough warriors to Kyoto or Rome in time, they are a long way off."
     
  9. HermannLombard

    HermannLombard Warlord

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    Hmm...maybe I'll give that a try once I'm done killing things with the Mongols. Refreshing!

    Hey, thank you so much for taking the time to help me! I hope this thread is of use to others too.

    First the CS and AI would have to build them, one of the perils of the lower levels. I think the first foreign worker I saw was when I reached Antium.

    I may have misinterpreted "get anything you need to hook up luxuries." I guess I had the multiple critter tiles.

    OIC

    I found Singapore early, but didn't have 500gp until very late. That's the other reason I wanted to detour to the lux-enabling techs, along with keeping my happiness out of the red to get to the GS. Balance is everything, and I guess I didn't manage it.

    Yes I do, but I don't have workers and I want luxuries so I built on top of them. Unfortunately a lot of them were on hills!

    You see how badly I misjudged the map; I thought it was pretty good because of all the luxuries for happiness and trade. In the OP you mentioned that you had an unusual number of hills. Naturally my current Mongol map has lots of tasty hills, still useful for driving conquest.

    So as Babylon: GS yes, Bowmen no. I don't remember if I had a 6 Iron (where does golf come in? ;) ), but the Great North Woods were full of iron tiles. Having enough gold for alliances andupgrades is always hard for me, and I guess the King AIs are relatively poor.

    Thanks again for the advice!
     
  10. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    *nod* I suspect you have to live without them until you can rush them with Gold. Sell your GPT surplus, then rush a Worker and start hooking up luxuries. If I remember right, you should be able to pull that off around turn 25 even on King.

    Makes sense, and I can see why you'd prioritize it in this situation.

    Yes, they don't pop GA's every ten turns like the Deity AIs, so they aren't rolling in cash.

    You're welcome!
     
  11. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    that in a nutshell is a very easy way to strengthen deity; just make the ai drive a harder bargain with you as the difficulty levels rise. instead of 300 for silver/gems/spices etc when you are on good relations, gradually gut it down to 250/200/150/etc as difficulty levels rise. that would also force the human into constantly unbalanced trades, etc etc. a good player could still win sometimes, but it wouldn't be a slamdunk at least.
     
  12. boehj

    boehj runnin' tings

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    The lack of early workers to steal is a killer at Emperor and below. I've resigned to stealing Militaristic CS workers and making peace straight away instead.

    I also find that if a CS asks you to do a mission and you have a chance to return one of its workers for influence, ceteris paribus, I will steal it rather than return it for influence in the early game.

    When you have to build a worker it just feels so slow. It'd be great if there was an early SP that helped you speed up worker production.
     
  13. Gus_Smedstad

    Gus_Smedstad Warlord

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    Explain this to me. I've been going for the Luxury techs first when taking this approach, on the theory that they're faster to research than Construction, and hooking up a luxury is much, much cheaper than building a Colosseum. Thus you get the happiness boost earlier, which means you can build more cities without dipping into negative happiness earlier. The main drawback is that the cities build something less useful like a Monument while they're growing from size 1 to size 2, but after that they're pumping out Settlers so it doesn't matter.
     
  14. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    You don't need the Happiness until around the time you finish Calendar, and you can always burn the annexed city for Happiness. Extra Happiness on prior turns will get you the GA earlier, but that's not necessarily a good thing. If you find yourself in a start where you must go fast Iron, and you know that by turn 15, then it would make sense to defer Construction and get Writing/Calendar.

    Working Colosseums at size 1 rather than builds that don't help saves you several turns throughout your empire later. Going Calendar can get you cash for Settler rushes, which could speed things up, but the problem is that you're not going to have Construction by the time you need to quit pumping Settlers.
     
  15. HermannLombard

    HermannLombard Warlord

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    So am I reading correctly: by the time you finish researching Construction you will already have produced all the Settlers you will need? How many of them will you have settled by that point? (Probable answer: as many as luxuries will allow and still stay in the green...or is it stay above minus 10?) Then each completed colosseum will allow one more Size 2 city.

    In that pre-Construction period are you--when not pumping settlers--working on Monuments or Units or what? I guess each city has time to build about one settler, and maybe one or two can build a worker?
     
  16. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    Hardly. Figure I'm at 3-4 cities by turn 40, which becomes 8 in the 50's.

    Depends on the luxury situation. Hopefully I'm drawing one from the Maritime, plus one or two that are improvable within my borders without Calendar. If I have a good luxury situation, that adds another city because I can found one before I have to burn down the captured city. I generally push -9 Happiness before I burn the captured city, but tend only to go to about -4 or so after that until Colosseums start finishing.

    Settlers and Colosseums only. I don't build Workers. I live with what I can steal. Most games I get one from the Barbs, steal one from a city-state, plus whatever I can farm off the weak civ.
     

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