Kongo is OP!

[God of Kings]

Watch here:

Once Kongo has five relics in its capital, its faith output would very well allow the Kongo player to buy very much any great person very much on demand using faith.

No wonder why MadDjinn (the person who made the Let's Play) decided to give up on the Kongo game.

 

[MadDjinn]

it's less 'kongo' and more 'someone doesn't know how to do math'.

any other civ that uses reliquaries and Mont St. Michel would get the 48 faith from 2 relics (instead of 24).

what's really odd is that Kandy (also broken by itself) and reliquaries may actually cancel each other out. I'll have to see if the launch day mp stream is still around, but I sort of remember getting less faith than expected with those two combined.

 

[God of Kings]

it's less 'kongo' and more 'someone doesn't know how to do math'.

any other civ that uses reliquaries and Mont St. Michel would get the 48 faith from 2 relics (instead of 24).

what's really odd is that Kandy (also broken by itself) and reliquaries may actually cancel each other out. I'll have to see if the launch day mp stream is still around, but I sort of remember getting less faith than expected with those two combined.

Kongo + Reliquaries + Mont St. Michel + Five relics in the palace = 1452 faith per turn!

That seriously needs to be patched up.

 

[bladex]

damn right that's why i use them

 

[spfun]

What am i missing here, how does one get 5 relics as Kongo? I get maybe 2 if I'm lucky with one from a hut and another from getting a lucky martyr promotion. Mont St. Michel is quite into the game I'm well onto winning by that point.

reliquaries Kongo can't even pick that religion. So all i'm seeing here is luck and more luck bundled on top! Hardly OP lol...

 

[GoodSarmatian]

What am i missing here, how does one get 5 relics as Kongo? I get maybe 2 if I'm lucky with one from a hut and another from getting a lucky martyr promotion. Mont St. Michel is quite into the game I'm well onto winning by that point.

There's Kandy which gives you a relic when you discover a natural wonder and Yerevan, which allows you to pick your Apostle's promotions.
The ridiculous OP faith output is pretty much a matter of luck, as it depends on which city states spawn where, and what beliefs your neighbours have picked.
Without that, Kongo is still very strong with one of the best UUs and a guarantee on almost every Great Merchant and Artist you want.

 

[spfun]

I've played the Kongo the most so far as I like to play Tall and they're the only nation in the game that can overcome the housing limitation early enough for it to matter and go Tall. I love the relic bonuses as you can have themed archeological museums providing 12 food, production, culture and 24 gold! The palace slots is just gravy on top.

But this threads situation is nearly impossible to achieve in game to the point its not worth mentioning other than the calculation bug! Becoming suzerain with 2 religious city states also means you're probably neglecting a cultural or industrial city state which in this insanely rare circumstance is worth it but won't be most of the time.

 

[The Carp]

Kongo + Reliquaries + Mont St. Michel + Five relics in the palace = 1452 faith per turn!

That seriously needs to be patched up.

After watching MadDjinn's LP I was wondering how they could make such a ridiculous calculation error.

It looks like for each relics it adds the base amount of faith to the total amount so far calculated then it applies the reliquaries multiplier.

// probably implemented with something like this
$faithFromRelics = 0;

foreach ($relics as $relic) {

    $faithFromRelics += $relic->baseFaith;

    if (true == $hasReliquariesBonus) {
        $faithFromRelics *= 3;
    }
}
// which result in this horribly wrong math
// ((((((((4 * 3) + 4) * 3) + 4) * 3) + 4) * 3) + 4) * 3 = 1452


// should be like this instead
$faithFromRelics = 0;
$multiplier = 1;

if (true == $hasReliquariesBonus) {
    $multiplier = 3;
}

foreach ($relics as $relic) {
    $faithFromRelics += ($relic->baseFaith * $multiplier);
}
// which result in the correct math
// (4 * 3) + (4 * 3) + (4 * 3) + (4 * 3) + (4 * 3) = 60

 

[WiseGreen]

After watching MadDjinn's LP I was wondering how they could make such a ridiculous calculation error.

It looks like for each relics it adds the base amount of faith to the total amount so far calculated then it applies the reliquaries multiplier.

// probably implemented with something like this
$faithFromRelics = 0;

foreach ($relics as $relic) {

    $faithFromRelics += $relic->baseFaith;

    if (true == $hasReliquariesBonus) {
        $faithFromRelics *= 3;
    }
}
// which result in this horribly wrong math
// ((((((((4 * 3) + 4) * 3) + 4) * 3) + 4) * 3) + 4) * 3 = 1452


// should be like this instead
$faithFromRelics = 0;
$multiplier = 1;

if (true == $hasReliquariesBonus) {
    $multiplier = 3;
}

foreach ($relics as $relic) {
    $faithFromRelics += ($relic->baseFaith * $multiplier);
}
// which result in the correct math
// (4 * 3) + (4 * 3) + (4 * 3) + (4 * 3) + (4 * 3) = 60

Or maybe simply removing an extra bracket from the first formula (assuming it's something like that) and thus applying the multiplication modifier only once, as it would give the same result with less operations (since [a + a + ... + a]*n = [a*n + a*n + ... + a*n]).

 

[The Carp]

It's more of a representation of what's going on with the loop.

Also while your statement is correct I don't get how that would fix the first formula.
Maybe you meant the 2nd one ?

If so then you are right and the multiplication could be moved outside the loop like so

// should be like this instead
$faithFromRelics = 0;

foreach ($relics as $relic) {
    $faithFromRelics += $relic->baseFaith;
}

if (true == $hasReliquariesBonus) {
    $faithFromRelics *= 3;
}

// which result in this other correct and simpler math
// (4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4) * 3 = 60

 

[rpgalon]

What makes kongo OP is more like:
Neighborhood 2 eras earlier that cost half the price to build and gives 2 food and 4 gold so you don't even lose the tile yields.

It has +100% GPP generation for Merchant, Musician, Artist and Writers. (Brazil gets 20% for everyone IF you manage to get the GP).
Each Great Merchant you get, Kongo gets 2, and merchants are amazing.

Jungle AND Forest start bias, you get higher average starting yields and can chop stuff for days and a more defensive terrain.

And the most stupid broken bonus ever:
The +2 food +2 production +4 gold from some types of Great Works would be fine If it did not Double on theming, Seriously, getting +12 food +12 Production +24 gold +18 culture +18 tourism that don't need to be worked to get the yields, from a single archaeologist is just nuts.
You get like 6 tiles worth of pop working, each giving 2 food 2 production 4 gold 3 culture 3 tourism without needing any extra tiles/population. Just broken.

I think Kongo is right there with Germany if not better, but still < Sumeria/Scythia, just because they can kill you before you get your stuff online.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Kongo + Reliquaries + Mont St. Michel + Five relics in the palace = 1452 faith per turn!

That seriously needs to be patched up.

Actually it would be 1500
1452 from palace
48 mont st michel

Actually it makes me wonder about the policies giving a boost to tourism from music or art&artifacts

 

[kamex]

it's less 'kongo' and more 'someone doesn't know how to do math'.

any other civ that uses reliquaries and Mont St. Michel would get the 48 faith from 2 relics (instead of 24).

what's really odd is that Kandy (also broken by itself) and reliquaries may actually cancel each other out. I'll have to see if the launch day mp stream is still around, but I sort of remember getting less faith than expected with those two combined.

I'm a little confused by this. If Reliquaries give triple faith, and the base faith of a relic is 8, then each one should be worth 24, thus its correct that a full Mont St. Michel gives 48?

Why is this just about Kongo, is it because they are the only civ with the means to host more than 2 relics in one place? Five in the capital? If so, should a full capital with Reliquaries actually be 24*5 (120)?

 

[The Carp]

I'm a little confused by this. If Reliquaries give triple faith, and the base faith of a relic is 8, then each one should be worth 24, thus its correct that a full Mont St. Michel gives 48?

Why is this just about Kongo, is it because they are the only civ with the means to host more than 2 relics in one place? Five in the capital? If so, should a full capital with Reliquaries actually be 24*5 (120)?

A relic gives 4 faith and 8 tourism.
And the problem is not specific to Kongo as it's a computation error.
Kongo just happens to benefit from that error the most.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Base faith of a relic is 4
Mont should give 24, 12 for each relic.
The math is bugged

 

[TruthfulCake]

The numbers in this thread are interesting. I haven't played a full game as Kongo, because I dislike the dependence on other civs to spread their religion to my cities. My experience in my previous game tells me that it is hard to get a majority religion in your civ if you do not found one, since you cannot control how the AI spread theirs. If the numbers in this thread really translate into Kongo's overwhelming presence in-game, perhaps the difficulty in getting religion spread to your cities is a balancing factor of its own.

 

[MadDjinn]

I've played the Kongo the most so far as I like to play Tall and they're the only nation in the game that can overcome the housing limitation early enough for it to matter and go Tall. I love the relic bonuses as you can have themed archeological museums providing 12 food, production, culture and 24 gold! The palace slots is just gravy on top.

But this threads situation is nearly impossible to achieve in game to the point its not worth mentioning other than the calculation bug! Becoming suzerain with 2 religious city states also means you're probably neglecting a cultural or industrial city state which in this insanely rare circumstance is worth it but won't be most of the time.

nearly impossible? no. Some AI somewhere will always take Reliquaries.
So you go get that religion.

Mont St. Michel does not get built that often, usually due to the terrain need (marshes have a tendency to get drained before then).

You only need Mont St. Michel OR Kandy (without exploring first so that you can get the 5+ relics from natural wonders) OR Yerevan to choose your own promotions OR just buy the relics from the AI.

Special bonus if you miss the Martyr Motel and an AI builds it: Go crush their apostles in theological combat and then buy the relics.

edit:

Why is this just about Kongo, is it because they are the only civ with the means to host more than 2 relics in one place? Five in the capital? If so, should a full capital with Reliquaries actually be 24*5 (120)?

It is just that the math compounds itself with the 5 slots given to Kongo in their palace. A proper reliquaries math on 5 relics would be 60 faith total. (4 faith each *3 *5)

 

[MadDjinn]

Actually it makes me wonder about the policies giving a boost to tourism from music or art&artifacts

I'm reasonably sure the +300% tourism for artifacts doesn't work (Great scientist booster).

that boost plus a theming boost (2x) ends up at +200% (+100% each when applied).

 

[GT_OKEZ]

it's less 'kongo' and more 'someone doesn't know how to do math'.

any other civ that uses reliquaries and Mont St. Michel would get the 48 faith from 2 relics (instead of 24).

what's really odd is that Kandy (also broken by itself) and reliquaries may actually cancel each other out. I'll have to see if the launch day mp stream is still around, but I sort of remember getting less faith than expected with those two combined.

Don't mean to go off topic but I just want to drop you a quick praise. You seem like an extremely good player and I find your playthroughs highly informative and I feel I learn something new all the time. I may not do everything the way you'd do it (it's merely personal preference) but your reasoning behind your choices is solid. Thanks for the videos and I'm chomping at the bit waiting for more with your Russia playthrough.

 

[Sogno di Volare]

The numbers in this thread are interesting. I haven't played a full game as Kongo, because I dislike the dependence on other civs to spread their religion to my cities. My experience in my previous game tells me that it is hard to get a majority religion in your civ if you do not found one, since you cannot control how the AI spread theirs. If the numbers in this thread really translate into Kongo's overwhelming presence in-game, perhaps the difficulty in getting religion spread to your cities is a balancing factor of its own.

I feel the same way about relics the whole ... I don't like having to rely on a wonky AI to come and beat some of my Apostles. I get what a relic is, but that mechanic seems entirely unreliable / silly.