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Kongo strategy?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by zxcvbob, Apr 11, 2017.

  1. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    Kongo cannot build holy districts, but what happens when you capture them? They're not destroyed are they?

    I have no idea if this works, but how about letting your nearest religious neighbor spread their religion to you, then declare war and kill them, appropriating their shrines and temples and relics? You also get to keep their founder belief.

    It shouldn't be hard to get another religious civ to join you in a joint war to reduce the warmonger stigma; the ancient era is probably too soon to reenact the Great Betrayal.
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Kongo cannot own a religion period, at least thats how I understand it. Many have tried.
     
  3. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    I understand that you wouldn't own the religion and can't get a religious victory. Just wondering if Kongo should be played more as a religious warmonger instead of a cultural pacifist. The endgame is still probably cultural victory.
     
  4. sa1vy

    sa1vy Warlord

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    IIRC, in my Kongo game the holy sites in cities I captured disappeared :( I think the tile still had a road, though. This was a couple patches ago, and it may have changed since, but my guess is that this is still the case.
     
  5. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    That makes me sad. :cry: I thought I had figured out a fun new strategy.

    I still think I'm gonna try it and see. I started a game yesterday and played for a half hour; Japan is my neighbor and is being an *******. Hojo denounced me because I settled a spot that he wanted (I only have 3 cities), and Pedro has denounced Hojo for forward-settling Rio de Janeiro with two crappy little cities and trapping it against the coast (a brilliant move, imho.)

    I'm pretty sure Pedro would join me in a war and I'll take Kyoto; he can have the rest. Hojo has already spread his religion (Buddhism?) to all my cities and I know Kyoto has a holy district.

    Edit: Yep, Pedro was happy to join me in DoW'ing Japan, and when I captured Kyoto the holy site went *poof*. (I should have pillaged it first)
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  6. Gus_Smedstad

    Gus_Smedstad Warlord

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    Kongo is weird. All that emphasis on religion and you can't do much useful with it. No holy sites, no holy buildings. Religions that have purchased things like Meeting Houses are useless to Kongo since you can't own any Holy Sites. Only the ones with passive benefits (i.e. Work Ethic or Zen meditation) have any value.

    All those free Apostles are 80% useless as a result. The only thing you can really do with them is get the Martyr promotion, either via Monte. St. Michel, Yerevan, or plain luck, and have them stand around near another civ's holy city and hope they get argued to death. I got maybe 2-3 relics that way the last time I played Kongo. Mostly I just deleted my Apostles after seeing they had a useless promotion (anything other that Martyr, Medic, or Heathen Conversion).

    Even if you manage it, your storage for relics is very, very limited, since you can't build temples. It's that special 5-slot space in the palace and that's it.

    Kongo's strength is mostly those Mbanzas, and secondarily some very nice bonuses from archaeological artifacts. The bonus gold is almost as important as getting a housing district early.
     
    Victoria likes this.
  7. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    Ngao Mbeba (I had to look that up) is a good unit, especially since my only iron is coming from a friendly CS and could disappear on me. Good for taking cities (with a battering ram) because of the extra defense against ranged attacks. Attack the city once, then fortify and heal and soak up damage while the catapults and crossbows get into position. After the walls are destroyed the NB's can start attacking the city again.

    I wondered how Japan was managing to build Samurai without any iron. Those don't require any resources either, and they're stronger than I thought. Hojo only had a few, and he wasted them attacking my encampment.
     
  8. Datian

    Datian Warlord

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    The whole point of Kongo is to not found any religion. It has a nice benefit : you don't waste hammers on building holy sites (plus, with the extra population of the early neighbourhood, you end up building all the districts you want).
    I think it's one of the reasons AI Kongo usually fares so well, and is a major pain when you compete for a cultural victory : it will build early theater places, when the others compete for a religion.

    The main risk is to see a religious victory happening and be unable to prevent it. The many apostles you'll get can help to prevent that.

    As for the relics and artifacts bonus, it's just OP - especially when you get an early relic in a hut. You can also trade for them, the AI has no idea how valuable they are for Kongo.
    For relics storage, you can use the wonders (Apadana, Mont Saint-Michel), and the Medici merchant (two slots in a bank).
     
  9. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    What do you do with all the great artists? I'm thinking about making great works to put in my palace, then sell them as I get relics to replace them.
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    You can do that... i tend to try and get a relic for my palace.
    You can store a couple in a bank if you get the right great merchant
    I tend to use them to explore and fog bust, late game I just kill them
     
  11. Datian

    Datian Warlord

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    don't forget to grab the ones with the sculptures
     
  12. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    D'oh! I never noticed that there were different kinds of artist, and it actually matters (especially for Kongo.) I hope the one I passed-over recently (because I had others standing around) wasn't Donatello.

     
    4N4C0ND4 likes this.
  13. Callduron

    Callduron Chieftain

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    Let's talk about Founder Beliefs.

    First we need an example game situation so here it is: Mediaeval period, Kongo owns 10 cities of 10 pop each, each AI civ owns 5 cities of 10 pop each, one human player 5 AIs, 4 religions in game. All relevant districts have been built.

    The 4 AI civs with religions have complete control in their own cities, you and the other non-religious country have a roughly even distribution of each. There's also 2 city states following each religion.

    (Forgive these arbitrary madeup numbers, they'll make more sense later).

    You can use your Apostles from one of your cities to convert your other cities. Basically you find your Hindu city, finish a Mbanza there, use that apostle to convert another city to Hinduism, build a mbanza there and get a fresh Hindu apostle, etc etc.

    Essentially you can pick your religion, so long as someone else got you started and use your potentially infinite apostle spam to convert the world. (Infinite Apostle spam = forward settle a city, chop a theatre and mbanza then leave it for the AI to conquer and after he does raze that city and start a new one).

    I would guess that you can prevent the religion's founder from winning by wiping them out (assuming a dead civ can't claim a posthumous religious victory) or maybe just refrain from going all out.

    The founder beliefs are mostly straightforwardly mathematical so let's look at the incomes given, using our example.

    Church property: +20 gold. (Approx 10 cities, 2g per city)
    Lay ministry:+10 culture. (Your 10 theatre squares give +1 culture each).
    Papal primacy: +10 science/culture/+20 gold per 3 envoys you've spent rounded down. (Assuming you're spending a max of 6 in each city state). By the late mediaeval this is probably about 6-9.
    Pilgrimage: +12 faith. (Approx 6 cities following the faith in other civs).
    Stewardship: +10 science and +10 gold. (+1 science from each campus, +1 gold from each commercial hub).
    Tithe: + 25 gold. (About 100 pop following the religion, 0.25 gold per pop).
    World church: +20 culture. (About 100 pop following the religion, 0.2 culture per pop).

    The numbers change a lot when you go converting. If the whole world follows the religion you've picked but the founding civ is dead and so can't claim religious victory these are the numbers instead:

    Church property: +86 gold.
    Lay ministry:+10 culture.
    Papal primacy: +10 science/culture/+20 gold per 3 envoys you've spent rounded down. (Assuming you're spending a max of 6 in each city state). By the late mediaeval this is probably about 6-9.
    Pilgrimage: +25 faith.
    Stewardship: +10 science and +10 gold.
    Tithe: + 107.5 gold.
    World church: +86 culture.

    Looks to me like World Culture is the best. Get that in one of your cities, finish a mbanza there, use the apostle to convert more of your own cities then use a wave of apostles to convert most of the world without accidentally handing a win to the AI that founded the religion, picking up a few relics on the way.

    Other strategies are possible, you could for instance pair papal primacy with an Apadana/envoy strategy.

    Another fairly obvious use of your apostles is simply to prevent someone else winning a religious victory.

    To give an example from my current game. I'm playing India and didn't get a religion. The AI civs have the following:

    Spain. Catholicism. Church Property.
    America. Protestantism. Papal Primacy.
    England. Buddhism. None yet. (I blame Brexit).
    Scythia. Conficianism. Lay Ministry.
    Norway. Zoroastrianism. None. (That might be kinda my fault. Oops).

    Church Property is probably the pick of a bad bunch. So if I were playing Kongo instead of India I'd forward settle Spain then build a mbanza after they converted that city.

    (Afterthought. I've been struggling to get my head around a good Poland strategy. You need to go heavily into Holy Sites early on to contest the great prophets but you also need strong culture to unlock Winged Hussars on time. It just struck me that this might be the way to do that. With World Culture you can basically get culture from faith points).
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    1 theatre with 2 great writers and 0 adjacency = 18 culture.
    With an unthemed museum it's 26 or 29 culture
    World church is not that great in comparison
     
  15. Callduron

    Callduron Chieftain

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    Sure but if it's basically free it all helps.

    Also if you're in a situation on a high difficulty where you're not routinely collecting all the theatre great people because of AIs like Russia or Brazil the free culture from manipulating world church into all your cities is more relevant.

    Before this thread I hadn't really thought about what to do with Kongo's apostles.

    There's another thing too. Jesuit Education is pretty useful because it gives you a really good use for the faith you'll pick up from relics, dyes, etc.
     
  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Yup, I had pretty much done nothing with them because I did not want to make religion worse. But a headless religion is a nice idea, well played.
     
  17. Callduron

    Callduron Chieftain

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    Unfortunately I now have a burning desire to play Kongo and lose myself a game by handing an AI civ a religious victory.
     

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