[R&F] Korea first look.

[Westwall]

Firaxis has really been dropping the ball lately when it comes to depicting Koreans (at least in terms of how Koreans see themselves).

In Beyond Earth, the Korean (Chungsu) leader was a villainous and scheming figure with spy bonuses while now she's an under-dressed maid with Latina/Filipina features.

There's already a push on Reddit for Firaxis to revamp her appearance like they did for Teddy Roosevelt.

 

[chronoturner]

Firaxis has really been dropping the ball lately when it comes to depicting Koreans (at least in terms of how Koreans see themselves).

In Beyond Earth, the Korean (Chungsu) leader was a villainous and scheming figure with spy bonuses while now she's an under-dressed maid with Latina/Filipina features.

There's already a push on Reddit for Firaxis to revamp her appearance like they did for Teddy Roosevelt.

I honestly don't have an issue with her current appearance, besides her outfit, which I guess could be a bit more elaborate to match the pictures of her.
I also think her face is fine - we can't all have the ideal face. Sure, she may not look like most Koreans would find ideal, but that's fine. The edit also strikes me very much as trying to appeal to Western beauty, with the thinner lips, smaller nose, and less makeup, for some reason? That might just be me, though.

 

[Westwall]

I honestly don't have an issue with her current appearance, besides her outfit, which I guess could be a bit more elaborate to match the pictures of her.
I also think her face is fine - we can't all have the ideal face. Sure, she may not look like most Koreans would find ideal, but that's fine. The edit also strikes me very much as trying to appeal to Western beauty, with the thinner lips, smaller nose, and less makeup, for some reason? That might just be me, though.

The issue isn't her attractiveness, it's that she seriously doesn't look Korean or even East Asian in the slightest. Her eyes especially don't look Korean. At best, she looks like she's from one of the Southeast Asian islander nations. And wanting lighter skin has been a part of Asian cultures since long before contact with the West. Like in most of Asia, lighter skin would've been considered a status symbol in Korea. That's goes double if they're among the elite/royal class. A tan like what you see with the current model would've been viewed as that of a peasant who spends long days out in the fields.

Korean commenters are already referring to her as a "frog monster".

 

[Kyro]

Firaxis has really been dropping the ball lately when it comes to depicting Koreans (at least in terms of how Koreans see themselves).

In Beyond Earth, the Korean (Chungsu) leader was a villainous and scheming figure with spy bonuses while now she's an under-dressed maid with Latina/Filipina features.

There's already a push on Reddit for Firaxis to revamp her appearance like they did for Teddy Roosevelt.

I totally agree that she looks more Southeast Asian than Korean. She certainly doesn't have the light complexion of Koreans either. Too much yellow and brown.

 

[chronoturner]

The issue isn't her attractiveness, it's that she seriously doesn't look Korean or even East Asian in the slightest. At best, she looks like she's from one of the Southeast Asian islander nations. And wanting lighter skin has been a part of Asian culture since long before contact with the West. Like in most of Asia, lighter skin would've been considered a status symbol in Korea. That's goes double if they're among the elite/royal class. A tan like what you see with the current model would've been seen as a the skin of a peasant who spends long days out in the fields.

Fair enough. I will admit, I didn't know about the wanting lighter skin part, which is kinda interesting. I do still think she looks mostly fine as is, but thanks for explaining it.

 

[stealth_nsk]

And if they want to have him in because their marketing has evidence to show that civ "icons" sell, then fine, it's their prerogative as a business, but at the very least, out of respect for one of the world's all-time most influential cultures, the devs need to make having an alternate leader or leader under a different civ name (i.e. Mughals) a standard as part of the game starting with Civ 6 and onward

If they find that having Gandhi doesn't matter anymore, then they should in the future cut him for more suitable leaders, letting the modding community they say they want to run wild create the nuking version of India

I think one of the reason why Gandhi joke is still alive (other than the fact what devs find it funny) is - developers need some leader with nuclear aggressiveness. Putting this on any other leader could be quite controversial, becaus in real life we had no full-scale nuclear war yet. And if developers make America nuclear militarists (since they are the only country who actually used nuclear weapons in war), that would cause pure outrage. So, keeping Ghandi as nuclear aggressor through joke looks like the least controversial way to have such aggressor at all in the game.

EDIT: Still, I really want second leader for India. Hope to see one in the expansion.

 

[Arent11]

LOL. What, likeGenghis Khan's merits of slaughtering millions to build an
empire that didn't stand the test of time?
Or Elizabeth I's appalling oppression of the Irish?

You would have been a very bad king of your people in those times
But I think in truth you do agree that success at war & acting cruelly
would have been necessary in those times.

Ghengis Khan was a genocidal, and ultimately fruitless warmonger,
that is true. But at war he was undoubtly better than most of his time.
It might be sad, but "building an empire that stands the test of time"
necessarily includes military success.

Maybe they are using it to appeal to more women gamers, as well as
making a good political point. None of us know the real reasons they
are doing it.

I think a certain variety is undoubtly a good thing. The point is that
they shouldn't push their point too far. You should never, ever "educate"
your readers/audience in a good book. You should only show a
problem & have faith that your readers/audience can think for
themselves.

 

[Siptah]

I can‘t help imagining how we would have gone crazy if the R&F announcement did not include details about content. I mean, we see new icons etc in the First Look and are able to determine their meaning. How much funny speculation could have done if we would not know about Ages, Governors etc...

 

[Westwall]

And if developers make America nuclear militarists (since they are the only country who actually used nuclear weapons in war), that would cause pure outrage.

I disagree. Most Americans are quite proud of their military tradition and don't see the invention or even the dropping of nukes as anything to be ashamed about. They see it as the weapon that ended the Second World War. Also keep in mind that their agendas for the last two Civs have been "Manifest Destiny" and "Big Stick", terms which aren't exactly lacking in their formidable/expansionist implications.

No, the reason the "Gandhi = Nukes" meme has persisted for so long is because it's become so iconic for the series. Nuclear Gandhi is basically the Civ mascot. That may not exactly be fair to the Indians who revere him but then really think back to the last times you've actually played against Gandhi. I have over 1,500 hours logged and I've never seen him use nukes even once in any of my games. It seems possible that Nuclear Gandhi is just perpetuated by the fan community at this point rather than being something Firaxis actively still implements into the gameplay. The devs might still joke about it but it's more just a symbol of what can happen in a Civ game in terms of turning history on its head.

 

[Siptah]

It might be sad, but "building an empire that stands the test of time"
necessarily includes military success.

I wish civ would be more of a civilization builder than an empire builder anyway.

And concerning educating an audience: I don‘t like it if games do that. They usually cater clichées as much as history or change things to make it more interesting or to their liking. What games can do is raising awareness of something, however. There is no guarantee that it doesn‘t backfire for some people - we can see it on Steam and YouTube in comments about female leaders, inclusion / exclusion of certain civs etc. I don‘t think this is a reason not to try.
And then there are indeed audiences that like to be educated, I suppose a lot if the people here fall in that category or readers of Umberto Eco. For these people creating not just awareness but also interest is an important side-dish if their hobby.

 

[Jekkusormi]

I didn't find anyone asking/speculating this but what do you guys think Seondeoks Leader Agenda will be?

 

[seancolorado]

I honestly don't have an issue with her current appearance, besides her outfit, which I guess could be a bit more elaborate to match the pictures of her.
I also think her face is fine - we can't all have the ideal face. Sure, she may not look like most Koreans would find ideal, but that's fine. The edit also strikes me very much as trying to appeal to Western beauty, with the thinner lips, smaller nose, and less makeup, for some reason? That might just be me, though.

It's not about ideal looks. It's that she doesn't even look remotely Korean. She looks like she is a mix of mainland Southeast Asia and a predominantly pale Western country.

At first I shrugged it off, but then I thought about how that, at least with all the other leaders, if they aren't perfect [they are not meant to be and that's fine - they are fun versions of them] then at least they look like someone you'd see from that region. You wouldn't see someone look like how Seondeok looks in Korea today or during the Silla period

 

[Scaramanga]

I didn't find anyone asking/speculating this but what do you guys think Seondeoks Leader Agenda will be?

I thought 20 pages ago it could be a liking to civs with many or highly promoted governors, in view of her ability.

 

[Takfloyd]

Firaxis has really been dropping the ball lately when it comes to depicting Koreans (at least in terms of how Koreans see themselves).

In Beyond Earth, the Korean (Chungsu) leader was a villainous and scheming figure with spy bonuses while now she's an under-dressed maid with Latina/Filipina features.

There's already a push on Reddit for Firaxis to revamp her appearance like they did for Teddy Roosevelt.

This Korean leader's model is the culmination of the misguided philosophy in western games recently where characters need to be ugly or "ethnic" looking or else it's not politically correct enough, especially if they are female. That's why almost the female leaders in Civ VI are ugly.

What these spineless developers who listen to a screeching vocal minority of social justice warriors don't understand is that most players want to see good looking characters, and this is especially true for Asian gamers. The East Asian version of Civilization Revolution 2 looks like this:


There's no wonder that Korean gamers are taking offense to the uggo that represents their country when they are used to pretty designs like this, though I wouldn't want Civ VI to be quite this anime myself.

 

[chronoturner]

It's not about ideal looks. It's that she doesn't even look remotely Korean. She looks like she is a mix of mainland Southeast Asia and a predominantly pale Western country. That would be the equivalent of having your average Canadian leader portrayed with the looks of

At first I shrugged it off, but then I thought about how that, at least with all the other leaders, if they aren't perfect [they are not meant to be and that's fine - they are fun versions of them] then at least they look like someone you'd see from that region. You wouldn't see someone look like how Seondeok looks in Korea today or during the Silla period

Yup! I totally agree, after a bit of thinking on it and Westwall's rebuttal.

 

[seancolorado]

There's no wonder that Korean gamers are taking offense to the uggo that represents their country when they are used to pretty designs like this, though I wouldn't want Civ VI to be quite this anime myself.

Not even about pretty or ugly. The leader just flat out doesn't look Korean

 

[Westwall]

This Korean leader's model is the culmination of the misguided philosophy in western games recently where characters need to be ugly or "ethnic" looking or else it's not politically correct enough, especially if they are female. That's why almost the female leaders in Civ VI are ugly.

What these spineless developers who listen to a screeching vocal minority of social justice warriors don't understand is that most players want to see good looking characters, and this is especially true for Asian gamers.

While I wouldn't necessarily go that far, there does seem to be this trending fascination with making characters needlessly unattractive, even though games by design are constantly working with idyllic imagery and concepts. The Civilization series overall consistently assumes an extremely idealized take on society, industry, expansionism, exploration, colonialism, politics and so on. For them to treat leader appearances differently seems bizarre to me, especially given that they're never consistent. Sure, they tried to keep Qin Shi Huang in keeping with Chinese depictions and Roosevelt consistent with his historical photos... but then they go completely off the rails with Hojo Tokimune and base him off a soap opera portrayal that doesn't even remotely resemble his historical portraits.

Honestly, who really minds if leaders are depicted as youthful or attractive? These leaders aren't actual "individuals" anyway, they're more like the embodiment or symbols of their respective civilizations. Who wouldn't want to see their nation represented by the most ideal version of their people in peak physical condition? I really want to know what kind of players are choosing a specific Civ and feeling offended that the leader doesn't look ugly or overweight enough.

 

[frubox]

I've been really irked by some people's comments regarding Seondok's look. While we can sit here and agree that she might have a tad too dark complexion, there are a couple things about Korea and Koreans that need to be addressed.

As a foreigner who lived and often travels to Korea, I can tell you that there are some disgusting gender inequality issues, at all levels of society and at all age categories. Korea is still a male chauvinist society where the advancements made in other parts of the world haven't even remotely been approached.

Which gets me to Seondok. If you think that the comments made by Koreans on youtube are because of ethnical misrepresentation, you are off the rails. They are the product of a society where women feel pressured to look a certain way or be shunned by men. Can't you see a pattern? The comments went from 'she's a useless female leader' to 'she's ugly'.

By coming here and defending the Korean outrage for her look you are defending the system I just explained above, not a sound and justifiable point of view. You guys should drop it. (I obviously know many Koreans who don't behave like this and wouldn't want to make comparisons, or ppl might get oversensitive...)

 

[agonistes]

People find the 5% underwhelming.

Korea's campus grants massive early science boosts, making sure they can share the tech lead with, say, Australia.

That 5% will shave off turns at some speeds. Later, it could be massive, giving you the edge in a science victory. - or any vc that utilizes tech. 5% is bigger than some people realize. You could be talking 100 science per turn.

 

[Westwall]

By coming here and defending the Korean outrage for her look you are defending the system I just explained above, not a sound and justifiable point of view. You guys should drop it. (I obviously know many Koreans who don't behave like this and wouldn't want to make comparisons, or ppl might get oversensitive...)

With all due respect, your personal negative interactions with Koreans have no bearing whatsoever on what we're discussing or why. You can't just assume our motivations to be completely in line with chauvinist male Koreans and that also wasn't the argument that the poster of that revamped image was using. Believe it or not, people can be opposed to the same thing for completely different reasons. This woman simply doesn't look Korean and it's unfair for you to project your negative experiences with Korean men onto any of us.

But while you're there, how about you ask Korean women what they think and which version they prefer? That seems like it would be more helpful than simply trying to speak for them.