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Lahore / Nihang is even MORE OP than Gran Colombia

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by tedhebert, Jun 8, 2020.

  1. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

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    Playing my first Gran Colombia game. I still think GC is OP, but honestly, Llanero and Haciendas are less impactful than I expected. I sincerely think that just making GG not stack with CG wuold be enough of an adjustement.

    On the other hand, I got suze of Lahore VERY early in game, thanks in part to the movement bonus letting me find it first, and mostly because not a single AI challenged me for it, I'm still suze after 170 turns with only 3 envoys !!!!

    I think FX made a HUGE mistake by not increasing the cost for the Nihang after each purchase. Paying only 200 faith for those units is a steal. + they cost no strategic. In my current game, Immortal/huge map/fractal, standard speed, turn 170, I'm now at over 20 nihang Corps (so 55+10=65 strength, and most at lvl 3 and 4). It's just too strong.

    I strongly believe that they should follow the same pattern as rock bands: Cost increase by 100 faith after each purchase.

    thoughts ?
     
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  2. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I don't think they need to be that potentially expensive. Instead, I would suggest that with every combat strength boost, there is a purchase cost boost of appropriate tech value, and an increase in maintenance per turn (it would be cool if they had a faith per turn maintenance).
     
  3. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    The key problem is that they tied strength bonuses to encampment buildings, which leads to a very uneven power curve as simply possessing a barracks gives you a 40 strength unit at bronze working; cheaper but just as strong as a legion.

    What they should do is something like 25+10 per era, which each era also increasing the cost. They can keep it advantageous in cost but for example, in civ5 missionaries became more expensive over time.
    Faith maintenance would also be neat, although the unit table doesn’t support non gold upkeep. (Policy Cards do support it!)
     
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  4. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    Eh, I don't think that Nihang are too broken.

    They have quite an opportunity cost early on. You need an Encampment and a Barracks, you need a decent source of faith that you aren't already spending elsewhere (e.g. religion, Jesuit Education, Monumentality civilian units), you need to invest enough envoys to become suzerain of Lahore, and you need to put up 2 gold per turn in maintenance. That's quite a high barrier to entry. If you have iron, then it's much easier to just build Warriors and upgrade them into Swordsmen.

    Early on, the strength different is minor, too. The Nihang have +4 Strength compared to Swordsmen, but they lose the +10 vs. anti-cavalry and the +7 from Battlecry at the first promotion.

    Nihang are better when compared to Musketmen. At that point, the maintenance cost is easier on your treasury, you've generated a bunch of envoys, and you've had time to build Holy Sites and Encampments. Nihang aren't any stronger than Musketmen, though. They're just easier and cheaper to produce. But that really only matters if you need new units. If you've been promoting your original Warriors and Swordsmen, then what do you need Nihang for? Cheaper maintenance? Eh.

    Probably the best time for Nihang is when you unlock the Military Academy in the early Industrial Era, a full era before you unlock Infantry. That's a big advantage!

    Late game, Nihang are eventually outshone by Mechanized Infantry, which have a higher combat strength. Unless you need new units, that is. Then, sure, the 200 faith cost and 2 gold per turn are great compared to building new Mechanized Infantry.
     
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  5. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    It's an interesting unit given it leverages faith generation; it's timing on the armory is also pretty good, since muskets are a tech later and require you to build up niter. Although i agree on the military academy - super obscene power spike. Do we know if it's cost is affected by the world congress -50% faith cost/theocracy?

    It should be noted that their promotions ain't bad either. Assuming you grab 3, you can get +7 while flanked (eh), +1 move (yes) and +10 strength while suzerain (oh lawdy.) That last one puts them into contention with being a strategic centerpiece - it's not hard to get 3 promo units, especially with so many GGs giving them out. You only need a couple to wreak havoc, like ambush warak'aqs.

    The whole mechanic has given me some interesting ideas for a mod, though...
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  6. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    Really?? I had no idea. I noticed the Nihang off of lahore but I didn't really shop for one. They costed 200 faith but I didn't really get them because of the victory conditions I was going for.
     
  7. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    These seems like a better Solution to me. I think the Monk would also benefit from this approach, instead of having to keep pace via its promotions which basically means that past a certain Era you can really build it and expect it to survive long enough to be promoted.

    I guess FXS didn’t just link CS to Era because they wanted the mechanic to be more dynamic / player controlled. But the current implementation doesn’t work. CS is so strongly linked to the tech tree, that having units that get CS from some other mechanism are just guaranteed to be too powerful or too weak.

    I think this whole area of “things” that give you Unique Units is really ripe for more development. I’d like to see more UUs via Beliefs, more via Suzerain, and maybe even more via Golden Age Dedications and or Wonders.

    Seems like an easy one for FXS too. You don’t really need massively new mechanics. Just a few extra models and a couple of Unique Promotion Trees.


    BTW, does anyone know if Lahore builds its own UU? I’d love to know if you could actually Levy Nihang instead of build them. That would be pretty funny with Hungary.
     
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  8. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

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    I took careful notice, and NO... not a single one
     
  9. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Every next pack tend to add something overpowered and definitely not balanced. Notice other city states are crazy strong too (easy cultue per bonus and so on), not to mention new natural wonders that simply spoil the balance. Settling it is certain win
     
  10. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

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    Well. hmmm.. ok maybe. Honestly, my opinion might have been slanted by the fact that I experienced them while playing GC, and on top of that, having Zanghye Danxia right by me at turn 0, so easy GG on top.

    When you combine Nihang with an excellent domination civ, it just steamrolls, because you just conquer/pillage the faith you need. And the fact that you can almost exclusively fill your army with faith buy liberates all your production and gold for something else. And yes, the Nihang really comes into its own with military academy, but it's never like the monk, it's never weak and never becomes obsolete playwise.

    BTW... the aim in my OP wasn't to bash the Nihang... I think it's a fabulous idea, and that monk should take after it. It's just that the cost and value of the unit seems out of whack with most other military units
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2020
  11. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    That's not too surprising - I believe AI and CS still follow mostly the normal rules, and since the unit can only be bought with faith, the odds of Lahore generating enough faith with it not allowed to build a holy site probably means it would take a long time. Maybe if they got lucky and started near Roraima, they might have enough to generate.

    But yeah, they definitely rise too fast. +10 per era with a rising cost makes sense, and I do think that the +10 combat bonus for being suzerain of Lahore should be a base ability, not just a promotion. Even warrior monks should also potentially have a more unique base skillset - maybe give them a built-in crusade-like ability where they get a CS bonus against civs following another faith? In any event, I'm all for "situationally strong, but you need some effort to maximize" type bonuses. Lahore's units are just a little too strong without any effort from your end, warrior monks are just a little too weak to really benefit from.
     
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  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    It really is a pity Warrior Monks suck so much. A very cool idea, but the execution just didn’t get it right.
     
  13. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    What? The Nihang gains combat strength at approximately the same rate as other melee units.

    Warrior 20
    Swordsman 36
    Musketman 55
    Infantry 70
    Mech. Infantry 85

    Nihang: 25, 40 (Barracks), 55 (Armory), 70 (Military Academy)

    So, the initial Nihang is slightly better than a Warrior, but costs 2 gold per turn in maintenance instead of nothing. I'd take more Warriors every time at that point in the game. Against Swordsmen, Nihang have a +4 CS advantage, which is quite nice. After that, Nihang and other melee units are equal in strength until Mech. Infantry, when Nihang just can't keep up.

    Besides that, the melee promotion tree is better. Yes, +10 CS is nice. But melee already get +10 CS against anit-cavalry, +7 CS from Battlecry, a second attack, and a bunch of other situational bonuses to defense and CS. They're more tanky than Nihang, which is what you actually want melee to be.

    Sure, you get Barracks one tech before Swordsmen and you get Armories one tech before Musketmen, but you'll probably get that next tech by the time you build those buildings unless you really plan for it. One tech isn't a big deal. Maybe 5-10 turns?

    Again, what? You have to invest heavily to get Nihang. They require a decent faith economy that you don't already want to spend on something else (civilian units, walls, other military units, religion, naturalists and rock bands, etc.), which probably means holy sites, and they require at least one encampment. Besides that, you have to invest in envoys to maintain suzerainity of Lahore to keep the +10 CS bonus and to ensure that you can make more Nihang. You probably won't get many Nihang early since the costs are prohibitive, which means that your Nihang are likely to have fewer promotions that standard melee units. Melee units get their +7 CS bonus on the first promotion, but Nihang don't get their +10 until the third. That's a big difference.

    On the other hand, they're cheaper to maintain than Musketman+ and they don't require Iron, Niter, or Oil. So, in the later part of the game, they can be quite nice.

    Sounds like what you want, right? Situational, but with some effort to maximize their potential.
     
  14. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Early on the faith is a limiter, never mind it does take you a while to gain suzerainty. And I do agree that it's not always trivial to be suzerain.

    I guess it's not necessarily just the pure strength, but the strength/cost. Musketmen cost 240 production, so to buy with faith is somewhere around 480 faith. Nihang are 200. So that's really where they shine - you can get 2 of them for every musket, so become dreadfully cheat to equip an army with corps if you have even a modest faith output. And that gets even bigger when you get to infantry, which are now 800 faith apiece.
     
  15. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

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    What you're forgetting here is that Swordsman need Iron, Misketman needs niter, Infantry and Mech needs Oil. nihang need nothing. That's HUGE.

    I agree that if not playing a domination game, the faith cost probably is important, as you need to build all the HS and building yourself, and use the faith outside of religious units. But combined with a DOM civ, it's incredibly OP.

    Anyways, we have to remember it's also situational, because there's no garantee it will be present in your game. But I'm still convinced the flat 200 faith isn't the right formula. and I agree than going as far a rock bands go, +100 faith per pop, is most probably overkill. But I'm sure there's an intelligent way to control this better
     
  16. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    But I didn't forget that. I mentioned it in my post. But, since melee units are almost always better than Nihang, the extra costs are probably OK. Well, maybe not Oil. I don't like the per turn Oil maintenance.
     
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  17. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

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    oh sorry... I snipped out that part of the comment when quoting...
     
  18. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    If I'm warring I'm going to have a couple encampments, and will build the armory for the eureka anyway. That saves you a fortune in upgrades even with the discount card slotted, and no resources needed. By the time you have an armory 200 faith is cheap enough to endlessly spawn fresh units where ever you need them. They can use battering rams and siege towers, and iirc they benefit from Oligarchy as well. The bump once you build a military academy is strong enough to plan a big push around. I'm not sure if they're OP (maybe, but it's hard to tell because GC is so strong anyway) but they are extremely strong if you intend to make war. *edit* The more I think about it, they'd be fine if they cost more once you built the armory and military academy so their price would be more in line with muskets and infantry. It's fine if they're less expensive but a flat 200 faith is too cheap.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
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  19. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I will say that right now Lahore is very good, but it's not game breaking. I worry that any nerf might go too far and leave them usually not worth it.
     
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  20. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    What does it take to for something to be "game-breaking" enough for it to be worth doing something about it?
     

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