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Lakes in Europe

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, Jun 17, 2016.

  1. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Continued my lake census on the map of RFCE.
    Wanted to have it up somewhere, collected them together.
    This is what I have:

    Lough Neagh, Ireland, 392 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Balaton, Hungary, 592 km2 - 2 tiles, should be 1, but represented this way because of it's shape
    Dead Sea, Levant, 600 km2 - while it's too small for 2 tiles, represented that way because of the Sea of Galilee
    Galilee Sea, Levant, 167 km2 - too small, but still represented because it's significant role in the Levant and around the Crusades
    Lake Tuz, Anatolia, 1600 km2 - 2 tiles, even though it's significantly smaller during Summer
    Lake Egirdir, Anatolia, 482 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Beysehir, Anatolia, 650 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Garda, Italy, 370 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Geneva, Switzerland/France, 581 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Constance (Bodensee), Switzerland/Austria, 541 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Scutari (Skadar), Balkans, 370-530 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Ohrid, Balkans, 358 km2 - 1 tile, represented together with Prespa
    Lake Prespa, Balkans, 259 km2 - represented together with Ohrid
    Lake Sniardwy, Poland/Prussia, 114 km2 - 1 tile, a lot of other smaller lakes in the area are also represented by this
    Lake Vattern, Sweden, 1912 km2 - 2 tiles
    Lake Vanern, Sweden, 5650 km2 - 3 tiles
    Lake Malaren, Sweden, 1140 km2 - 2 tiles
    Lake Hjalmaren, Sweden, 483 km2 - represented together with Malaren
    Lake Storsjon, Sweden, 464 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Peipus, Estonia/Novgorod, 3555 km2 - 3 tiles
    Lake Ilmen, Russia/Novgorod, 982 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Ladoga, Russia/Novgorod, 17700 km2 - 10 tiles, islands in the north
    Lake Onega, Russia, 9700 km2 - 5 tiles, with some islands in the north
    Lake Beloye (Beloozero), Russia, 1130 km2 - 1 tile
    Lake Saimaa, Finland, 4400 km2 - a system of lakes, currently represented by 2+1 tiles (because of it's shape)
    Lake Paijanne, Finland, 1083 km2 - 2 tiles, because of it's shape
    Limfjord, Denmark - not actually a lake, represented as a Coast tile diagonally from the Sea
    Trondheimsfjord, Norway - not actually a lake, represented as a Coast tile diagonally from the Sea
    Lake Vygozero, Russia, 1250 km2 - 1 tile, on the northern border of the map
    Lake Segozero, Russia, 815 km2 - 1 tile, on the northern border of the map
    Lake Kallavesi, Finland, 473 km2 (890 km2 with the surrounding lakes) - 1 tile, close to the northern border of the map
    Lake Suvasvesi, Finland, 234 km2 - represented together with the Kallavesi lake-system
    Lake Keitele, Finland, 494 km2 - also some other lakes in the area, 1 tile, close to the northern border of the map
    Lake Pielinen, Finland, 894 km2 - 1 tile on the northern border of the map
    Lake Nasijarvi, Finland, 256 km2 - 1 tile, lots of other lakes in the region are also represented by this

    Fairly big lakes not present on the map atm
    Lake Ferto (Neusiedlersee), Hungary - 315 km2
    Lake Vozhe, Russia, 416 km2
    Lake Lacha, Russia, 334 km2
    Lake Kubenskoye, Russia, 407 km2
    Lake Siljan, Sweden, 354 km2
    Lake Puula, Finland, 331 km2

    Salt Lakes in Tunisia/Algeria, most of these dry out or become significantly smaller in the Summer
    Chott el Djerid (el-Jerid), 5000-7000 km2, including Chott el Fejej - 4-5 tiles
    Chott Melrhir (Melghir), 3000-6700 km2, including Chott el-Gharsa - 3 tiles
    Chott el Hodna, 1200 km2 - 1 tile
    Chott Zahrez Chergui + Chott Zahrez Gharbi, ~1000 km2 - 1 tile
    Chott Ech Chergui, 2000 km2 - 2 adjacent tiles
    Sebkha d'Oran, 569 km2 - 1 tile, right on the coast (diagonally)
    Sebkha Sidi El Hani, 360 km2 - 1 tile, with Sebkha Kelbia and some other smaller lakes also represented with it
    Garaet et Tarf (Guerrah et Tarf), ~250 km2 - 1 tile, with a lot of smaller lakes also represented in the region

    Biggest European lakes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_lakes_of_Europe
    Finnish lakes: http://www.mapsofworld.com/finland/maps/finland-river-map.jpg
    Dutch Almere: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/800nc_ex_leg.jpg
     
  2. SanJose

    SanJose Chieftain

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    Replace with Oasis.
     
  3. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I don't really like this. Not a good way to represent anything there IMO.
    For now I have added a proper lake there, in a similar way as it was in the screenshot.
    It seems adding it is way more popular, and it's a minor change really, so I'm not against it.

    Btw, didn't react to this in the other thread:
    I think these are way too small
     
  4. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

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    In (early) mediëval Europe there actually was a fairly big lake in the Netherlands.
    The Almere. Size between 1100 en 3300 km2 (estimate by me, at it greatest extent (it grew over time) it looks to be about 2 to 3 times the size of the IJsselmeer (which by itself is about half the size of the big blue spot in the current Netherlands) and at its smallest extent about the same size, a little bigger, perhaps 1.5 times, as the current IJsselmeer (official size (current) IJsselmeer is 1100 km2)

    After 1287 (Saint Lucas flood) the land between the Almere and the Northsee was washed away. Thereby ending the existance of the Almere but giving birth to the Zuider Zee.
    (this process of lands getting lost to the sea was an ongoing thing though. It was exacerbated by land reclamation and the winning of peat. And also by Some particularly devastating floods and storms (most notably the Allerheilingenvloed of 1170 (The All Saints flood of 1170))

    summary:
    Almere, lake in the Medieval Netherlands
    size: +/- 2200 km2
    location: approximately the big blue spot in the current Netherlands.
     
  5. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    @Force44:
    I'm not sure how to represent your suggestion for the Netherlands.
    Or even if it would be better from the setup we currently have.

    @Swarbs:
    Just found out, that the Dead Sea was almost twice as big as it is now before 1930.
    Human interaction, as always. As it's not even fresh water this time it's only because of the chemical industry. Disgusting thing, really.
    "The water level in the Dead Sea is shrinking at a rate of more than one metre per year, and its surface area has shrunk by about 30% in the last 20 years"
    Anyway representing it with 2 tiles isn't too bad, especially considering it's original shape.

    EDIT: I was mistaken to some extent, it is largely due to the diversion of the water of the Jordan River, not only the chemical industry.
    Also there are now plans for a Red Sea–Dead Sea Canal, but from ecomonical reasons instead of preservation.
    It may result in some terrible consequences for the area and huge changes from the way as we know it now.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sea–Dead_Sea_Canal
     
  6. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

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    I took another look at the Almare and it seems like my upper estimate of the lake at its greatest extent was on the conservative side. That would make it bigger than some of the two tile lakes currently in the map.

    I'm afraid Implementing it would require a map change though.

    What follows in the remainder of this post are details and (personal) considerations

    edit: I put them under a spoiler to keep the entire thread better readable​

    Spoiler :

    Ideally (all of this IMHO)

    It would be to the east of Amsterdam (the tile currently with the sulphur). The tiles northeast, 2north and 2north1east(the tile of sea currently with the clam) of Amsterdam would be a swamps.

    After some time The swamptile northeast (of Amsterdam) would change into a lake (sweet water)

    After some more time it would become a salt lake
    (the water of the Almere (as opposed to Lake Flevo, its predecessor roughly on the same spot during roman times, which was fresh) was brackish and became more salty over time due to frequent floodings of seawater)

    At a date of one of the big floods/storms the swamptile two north.
    (1170, the Allerheiligenvloed is a bit early, but probably the biggest contributer), of Amsterdam could be turned into sea (thereby giving acces to ships to the former lake)

    At a later date the swamptile 2north1east of amsterdam could be turned into water, but this doesn't botter me that much.
    (The shortest distance between the (located in 2016 Netherlands) provinces of Noord-Holland and Friesland is less than 30 kilometers (probably closer to 20).(But it would not have been possible to cross at eb (the low tide) though because of the strong current between the North sea and the Zuider Zee.))

    (Optionally) Finally the spot that started out as the orignal Almare could be turned into grassland to represent the dutch efforts at winning land through polders.
    (an ongoing effort in the Netherlands that started in the Midieval era, 11th century according to Wikipedia (which personally I find surprisingly late given the urbanization in the Southern Netherlands))

    This would give the North Netherlands ultimately the same shape as it currently has.

    Although I'm dutch, the exclusion of the Almare doesn't botter me much (personally, and yes that rhyme was on purpose)

    But it was one of the bigger lakes of Europe at that time. It holds no cities in the mod (currently) but the Salian Franks were from that are.

    A small note on maps you find throughout the internet. On a lot of them the impression is given that the Almere and the North Sea formed a continuous body of water. This is not the case. At low tides they woud be separate but (I guess they try to convert that) at springtides (very high tides) the land between the North Sea and Almare would submerge (often).

    Just my 2 cents on the Almere. Do with them as you please (it is an issue even very low on my prioritylist, it is just that to see the groing and disappearing of the Almere I would find aesthetically pleasing ...personally)
     
  7. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I think this too small scale to include. Especially considering it all happens before the action starts in that area. (Only Burgundy occasionally settles here) So it has only little influence in gameplay. It does add some flavor, but I don't think many people will notice, as your attention isn't on that area anyway in most cases. So it will only happen in your fog of war.

    It will also provide some technical issues. (What happens if an unit stands on a tile that turns into water) I know we would find a solution to them. But I think it is not worth the effort. And I think the current situation is better gameplay wise.
     
  8. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

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    @Merijn.

    You are probably right. It is an area where very little happens.

    But the more I read about it, the more I realized it was huge.

    At its greatest extent it had the size of Noord-Brabant or Gelderland (the two biggest provinces in the Netherlands) that is almost 15% of the entire area of the (modern)Netherlands.
    (that is not really true, because the source I used didn't count the IJsselmeer and Markermeer (two fairly big lakes in presentday Netherlands) so the real number is probably closer to 12.5 %. But still... ...1 out of every 8 tiles could be the Almare.)

    It makes me wonder, are there other parts of europe where the landscape changed so drastically over the course of the RFCE-mod.
     
  9. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    The dutch "lake" is already represented by two coastal tiles on the map. While I know it's not perfect, I find the current one good enough to represent the area in the RFCE timeline
    Also that area is already quite huge. Actually it's bigger than 12,5% of modern Netherlands.
    With some islands (new feature) N and NE from that it will be more obvious what does it represent.
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    btw, you want to put the lake as down as the sulphur tile?
    Based on this, it would be 1 NE of Amsterdam
     
  11. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

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    Amsterdam is just South of the narrow protusiun of the lake. So East or NE of Amsterdam both seem fine if you would want to turn it into a one tile lake. (To me) This map suggests a two tile lake with both East and NE.

    Amsterdam is a bith southish to my taste on the map of RFCE. If you keep that in mind then indeed a one tile lake NE would be preferable.

    (If you consider Amsterdam to be on the correct location however, I would put the one tile lake on the tile that currently holds the sulpher. (cities east of amsterdam were (are) southeast of Amsterdam or on the other side of the Almare/Zuiderzee(/IJmeer))

    Actually I had a look at some other maps of Mediëval Netherlands. The slope to the south of the Almere seems very gradual on most of them. Really making no preference for either East or NE possible (for me).

    summary: Almaere NE of Amsterdam seems fine to me.
     
  12. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Yeah, the way I see it, that would be the better position.
    1 tile lake there, 1 NW and 1 N could be marshes.
    Those marshes and the lake tile itself could be changed to coastal sea tiles in the 12th century.

    While it would be more realistic for sure, I don't think I will spend time on this.
    This is such a minor change from a gameplay point of view.
    Also it would make the island feature placement in the area very difficult.
     

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