Lancer and Western Native American Rifleman (September 4, 2004)

[LouLong]

I'd like to point out that lancers were used in the Mexican campaign from 1860 to 1867. I don't think they were all that successful though.

... especially in the movie Vera Cruz !

 

[Dom Pedro II]

... especially in the movie Vera Cruz !

I just saw that movie last week. That's what made me think of it!

 

[Bungus]

Have yet to use them, but I always like native american units, especially for the later ages. (I already have a native rilfe fellow, so I think I'll do something bold and use him as infantry. Maybe they Iroquoi will have more luck in civ3) Thanks

"My last units were simply too big, so he was kind enough the resize these units before I released them. (He also said that he would shrink the last units I released.) "

I am a big proponent of unit shrinking. Well, of having other people shrink units. Which were your last?

 

[Scottskofski]

Ulans, where originally a Polish formation starting in the early 1700(1715 If I recall) It was an adaptation of traditional Polish Light cavalry from the 15-1600's with some of the inspiration going to another formation of the Polish army, Tartar Bosniaks. When the first Ulan formations where entering the Army Poland's king was also the elector of Saxony. It was the Saxons who used a few formations of Ulans in the War of Austrian Succesion and other wars where the did meat Prussian units. The Prussians attempted to make their own formations, but as said before converted them into Hussars. The Comte de Saxe also had a few formations of Ulans which is where the french first saw them. The Ulans where ment to take the place of Polands long since dwindiling Husaria formations, who at the time where scarce. The tactics for the Polish army was the striking arm, After bombardment from artillary a charge of Ulans was to take place, supported by other formations of Cavalry, this was because Poland's military did not like using traditional line infantry mainly because of the need to travel larger distances, with one army, since Polish congress was always suspecious of a king with a loyal and large standing army. The headgear, the Rogatiewka, was adopted by the Ulans in between the 2nd and 3rd Partitions, it was just the headgear(czapka means hat in Polish, which was eventualy called Chapka or Chapska in other European countries) it was the traditional hat of the Citizens who lived in Krakow, and at the time, a symbol of Koscuiszko's revolutionary ideas(I.E. All people are equal from the Nobles on hte horses to the peasents in the fields). The Ulans where the main fighting force in the Polish Insurection against the 3rd Partition. Tactics at that time generally followed Massive Bombardment with Cannons(Poland at the time had many more cannons than muskets, since cannon foundries where in the lands still held, Musket factories where usally in lands that where previously partitioned) after bombardment charge by the cav(Namely Ulans, and Hussars, or the occasional Dragoons), then a "Mop-Up" by the Scytheneers(Peasents armed with "war syths"). A few Battles where won this way, but eventually the superiour manpower of Russia and Prussia won threw and in 1795 Poland ceased to exist.

By Napolenic times Polish Ulans where easily recruited into Nappy's army since they wanted to liberate their homeland. Many where veterans of the war with Prussia and Russia, and many still fought with their older uniforms(later Frenchinized to one similar to the one given here). The lance was a potent weapon because it outreached Bayonetts, as well as the Sabers/broadswords carried by most other cavalry and on more than one occasion they ripped threw infantry fairly easily. As said before lancers where used until WW1 in their traditional roles. By the end of WW1 cavalry basicly became pretty much the same in all but name in most countries. From 1919-1920 the Polish Soviet War raged and both sides used alot of cavalry, armed with Cold steel simply because of lack of ammunition, but optimily the units where armed with Rifles, and other infantry weapons. By 1930 Polish Cavalry(Ulans, Mounted Rifles, and Light Horse where basicly all the same, except in name) stopped using the Lance as a battlefield weapon, and only used it for parades. Some did go in wagons with the cav when WW2 broke out and where used by the cavarly generally to good succes in the few charges that did take place(All the charges that did take place where also against infantry targets and never against tanks), but the prefered way to fight was dismounted in a fixed position with all the supporting weapons of the Cavalry brigade.

Ohh if anyone was interested, this is a good painting that shows the Polish Ulan uniform of the late 1700's. It is pretty much the same uniform used threwout the 1700's but most of the Ulans are wearing the Rogatiewka(Square Hat) thats how you can tell which are the Ulans.

http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/kossak_w/images/Przysiega_Kosciuszki.jpg

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

You mean the elector of Saxony had become king of Poland...

 

[Scottskofski]

Yes Augustus Wettin became King of Poland a short time before 1700. Poland was a Aristocratic Republic from around 1460-1795. All kings where elected, and the Polish Congress(Seym in Poland) had a tendancy to elect foreign kings since the idea was "A native king could gain too much strength, but a foreign king may put us into foreign politics we can always chase him out, and he has to come to us for permission to raise an army."

Polish "gentry"(For lack of a better term) where the driving force behind the nation, and the Magnates where the leaders, the kings had little power, and the standing armies where generally small(For a nation the size of Poland) and the height of its power the standing armies never usally reached over 30,000 men.

Augustus Wettin became king with some odd trickery. Jan Sobieski had just died, and traditionaly the kings son would be elected had he choosen to run, and so long as he was in the country. Jakob Sobieski was detained in Saxony on his way to Poland. So the Seym elected the "French Cantidate" Francois Louis de Bourbon, Prince de Conti. But Saxon troops detained him in Gdansk(Danzig). So Wettin bribed some members of the seym and they held a secret election electing him king. After a small uprising it was accepted and he immediatly got Poland envolved in the Northern War against Sweden by allying with Russia and Denmark. After Augustus died Stanislaw Leszczynski was elected and Augustus' Son felt short changed and that began the "War for Polish Succesion" which Augustus' son was eventually put on the Throne of Poland.

 

[Bungus]

I just tried out the units, and actually for a change, I noticed the native rifleman was pretty tiny, as compared to the standard rifleman. After checking out most of Firaxis's units, I've notice theirs are of vastly differering sizes too. (The warrior is real short, strange for a cave man type. The modern units get real short, with the infantry being aleast a third shorter than medieval units. So I guess the imortant thing is that when making a unit that is makine sure it measures up to its peers of the same era.

 

[nameless53]

compare their size to the unit your going to replace or add on with.

ex. longbowman and crossbowman or something.

 

[utahjazz7]

I just tried out the units, and actually for a change, I noticed the native rifleman was pretty tiny, as compared to the standard rifleman. After checking out most of Firaxis's units, I've notice theirs are of vastly differering sizes too. (The warrior is real short, strange for a cave man type. The modern units get real short, with the infantry being aleast a third shorter than medieval units. So I guess the imortant thing is that when making a unit that is makine sure it measures up to its peers of the same era.

Nah, I think I disagree about the size of these units. I don't have custom units in CivIII right now, but I have looked at the units in FLICster. The Western Native Rifleman looks to me to be maybe one pixel shorter than the standard rifleman. I think that Aluminium did a great job sizing these units.

I have noticed though that the size of the Firaxis units vary quite a bit--especially from the original to the expansion packs. In general, I think that the Conquests units are larger than the originals.

 

[Mobilize]

Would this lancer work for a Polish UU?

 

[utahjazz7]

Would this lancer work for a Polish UU?

Hmm . . . I honestly have no idea. Perhaps someone else could answer.

 

[Scottskofski]

Would this lancer work for a Polish UU?

I guess it could. More nations did use the lancer formations, but it could be argued that since Poland formed them and paid more attention to them(generally) that it could be a unique unit. I think most people would generally use a Husaria unit(Winged Hussar, Which I believe has also been done){Personally I dont really think this unit fits too good into the Civ 3 style era, as it was a baroque age Cav unit, which isnt really represented in Civ 3). Personally I usally use the Polish WW2 Cavalry, or a slightly modified version of the French parachutist from Balou(I tried to put in the Beryl assault rifle as opposed to the FA-MAS) for my Polish unique units. But I would think you could use a lancer as a Polish Unique unit, it does fit more into the game time frame than the Husaria.

 

[Steph]

It can work OK for Poland. But at the time Ulhan were around, Poland existed only for a short time, as Napoleon's ally.

However, the uniform is of typically Polish origin, so for a what if Poland exists as a civ in the 19th century, this unit is great.

 

[Ozymandias]

Wyrmshadow strayed from his airforce & navy productions to make a fine Polish lancer. Get it at:

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=7419

-Oz

 

[Antiochus VII]

I think the Winged Hussar --> Lancer --> Polish Cavalry (Wyrmshadow) would make for an ideal Polish flavor unit line. But the real 'Unique Unit' has to be the Winged Hussar of which suprisingly we don't have a good one yet

 

[Illustrious]

Exactly after those uniforms depicted had dissapeared: There were no mayor wars pre-1848 were the unit depicted could have been employed.

You are wrong. There was no sudden abandonment of Napoleonic-style uniforms at 1848, certainly not in the UK. During the Crimean War (1854-56), the British 17th Lancers rode into battle at Balaklava wearing uniforms almost indistinguishable from the ones pictured*. During the same battle, British hussars** were wearing brightly-coloured dolmans together with busby and pelisse. If anything, the British cavalry uniforms worn into battle during the period 1848 to 1880 were more elaborate and "Napoleonic" than those worn in 1815.

* Plenty of good pictorial references to illustrate this, including Elizabeth Butler's (near contemporary) paintings - "The return From Balaklava" was painted in 1876.

** The 11th Hussars rode into the valley of death wearing bright cherry-coloured breeches, largely because their Colonel (the Earl of Cardigan) thought the colour looked splendid.

 

[Scottskofski]

I think the Winged Hussar --> Lancer --> Polish Cavalry (Wyrmshadow) would make for an ideal Polish flavor unit line. But the real 'Unique Unit' has to be the Winged Hussar of which suprisingly we don't have a good one yet

Even so I wouldnt call the Husaria the real "Unique Unit" it really was more of an adaptation of the Hungarian Hussar, the Lancer was a true formation unique to Poland. But Like I said before when I make my civ, Poland usally gets Wyrmshadow's WW2 cav, or a modified version of Balou's Parachutist as the unique units, I could go into more detail as to why I picked these units, and what their stats are in my games, but that would go quite a bit off-topic.

 

[Antiochus VII]

Completely true (and I'll get back to topic after this) but Poland's 'Golden Age' was probably 16th to early 17th century - perfect for the Winged Hussar to start a 'golden age' if you play that way. The others as flavor units can be 'unique' too !

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I think the Winged Hussar --> Lancer --> Polish Cavalry (Wyrmshadow) would make for an ideal Polish flavor unit line. But the real 'Unique Unit' has to be the Winged Hussar of which suprisingly we don't have a good one yet

 

[Ozymandias]