L'Ancien Régime & The Brave New France

Colocolo

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 8, 2012
Messages
14
While some are excited about the changes to France, I'm skeptical to the point of suggesting that the powers that be lost perspective as to what France is and should be. France was a major Medieval power, and it blossomed in the Renaissance under the Sun King. And within the game, France has always been a Medieval-Renaissance power, ready to expand and consolidate in the mid-game. It nearly always possessed both military might and cultural importance to the extent that much of WWI was an effort to keep the Germans from desecrating Paris. The château may or may not be a game-changer, but since it means "castle" I hope for some defensive bonus (it would have been appropriate as a UB available after constructing a castle that would provide a culture bonus). But the UA was never a satisfactory pairing for Napoleon. It was tolerable because it was a good UA (in the rights hands even a great one), but it was a mediocre reflection of France itself, and worse still of Napoleon. It would have been better if after Steam Power, the bonus changed to adding to the cultural output percentage (+2 per city before Steam Power, +25% culture afterwards) -- which would also have given an incentive to not dread Steam Power, or weigh the options between military technology and cultural output. But what does that have to do with Napoleon? His UA should have been the Grande Armée, giving gunpowder units +1 movement, +25% production, & -25% maintenance cost -- or the Napoleonic Code could give gunpowder units +1 movement, -25% building maintenance, and free courthouses -- or the Hundred Days: if defeated, regain control of capital and first four cities; if defeated again, restart in mid-ocean island called Helena. &c&c&c.

The musketeer was passable, but unloved. He would have been better if he boosted a city's spy defense when garrisoned to reflect his counter-espionage pedigree á la d'Artagnan. And while the Foreign Legionnaire was a beautiful, beautiful unit, especially when there were 50+ built in a city with the Alhambra Palace and Great Epic (Morale + March + Combat bonus outside friendly lands) to form a truly terrifying, formidable, and perhaps unstoppable army that could conquer Russia in winter and win a land war in Asia... it was also a painfully short run between Legionnaire and Infantry.

But for all its faults, I loved France: an early culture sprinter that could turn into an ordinary empire into a leviathan fed by culture-pumping puppet states; a solid front line that could hold its own battling those wretched Siamese elephants, eventually upgrading into an army ready to bring you victory from one end of the globe to the other.
 
I guess the devs wanted to reflect France's more modern side, much like the rest of the expansion. Today, France is the world's most popular country for tourism. I like the change, personally. Plus, it pairs better with the leader, as you stated. I doubt anyone would care for a negative UA like the Hundred Days. This forum has torn apart India for doubling unhapiness in one aspect, imagine what a hububb would get stirred up for a UA that depends on losing! Overall, I welcome the new change, and am also excited about the Chateau.
 
Did you mean Morale + drill 1 + bonus outside friendly territory? :L

Anyways, you can't just center the UA around Napoleon. UA's don't necessarily reflect the leader and what their accomplishments were but usually represent a certain area or popular (historically) aspect of a civ. For example I don't recall William founding the East India company and yet that's the UA for the Netherlands because the Dutch East India Company is very well known and was important historically.
 
I guess the devs wanted to reflect France's more modern side, much like the rest of the expansion. Today, France is the world's most popular country for tourism. I like the change, personally.

I like the change too. I understand the concern of the OP. But France is one of those countries that went trou all kind of achievements in their history. I actually enjoy the idea of playing France as a cultural civ, maybe I'm just biased because of their influence in Quebec but it's clearly the first civ I'm gonna play June 9, then I'm going to try Brazil.
 
If it bothers you so much then mod it into the game.

or even better idea, make a Holy Roman Empire Civ and give them the old UA. It makes more sense anyways.

Personally I like the new France, I don't see France as something that get culture but one that inspires the world with it's art and music. Also there needs to be more civs that use new mechanics, and while the new civs do that some old ones were somewhat lackluster so overall it's an improvement.
 
I'm actually excited for France as you are encouraged to get the Louvre which is maximized by getting Great Works from different civs from different eras which means a lot of military intervention. Plus with additional tourism means your Ideology in the late game is spread further, like the French Revolution.
 
Well France has always been a major power, though never really the strongest - even the tiny Dutch defeated them on several occasions. It wasn't until Napoleon when they dominated the rest of Europe.
Giving them only combat units and abilities would greatly neglect the affect that the French have had on Europe, which wasn't just on military level. Even Napoleon introduced stuff that we still use today such as last names and right-side driving (which explains why the British and their former colonies are still driving left-sided). It would be the same as Germany: a bloody shame and waste of a civ with a lot of potential. So I welcome the changes that they are going to introduce.
 
Even Napoleon introduced stuff that we still use today such as last names and right-side driving (which explains why the British and their former colonies are still driving left-sided).

1. Left hand driving originates because two riders on horseback would carry their swords on the left hip and then draw them onto their right hand for defence or offence. That means that their opponent had to be on their right hand side, and for them to ride on the left. Thus, for most people, it is the CORRECT way to travel.

2. Napoleon made his army drive on the right which meant that they were not delayed by citizens using the road in front, and forcing those coming the other way to get off of the road.

Both of these may not actually be true, but we prefer our view that England is right and the rest of Europe, since Napoleon, is wrong. :smug::smug::):):)
 
I know that the left-side driving was the original one, if I recall correctly it were the Romans who introduced that. But still, the rest of the world moved on with right-side driving :p
 
Both of these may not actually be true, but we prefer our view that England is right and the rest of Europe, since Napoleon, is wrong. :smug::smug::):):)
Unfortunately it's a bit apocrypal, although it's partially correct.

The shift from left-side (the Romans, greeks and Egyptians drove on the left-side) to the right-side driving generally took place in the 18th century, due to the forms of transport then, in Europe, in Russia, in the US. For instance in Russia it was in law in 1752 and in the US in 1792.

But in a lot of Europe it was a confusing time, some still driving on the left, some on the right.

During the revolution in France they decided everybody should stay on the right and when Napoleon came to power he decreed that his soldiers (and thus all other traffic) should oblige by that rule.
And that's how right-sided driving (which was already partially taking place) in occupied Europe really got entrenched.
But as you can see, it was part of a more general global development.
/offtopic
 
Isn't the City Of Light powerful from the start?

I think the new UA is way better than the previous one. L'Ancien Regime was too specific in my eyes since it only talks about a specific period of France that conflicts masivly in my opinion with Napoleon as leader of France.
City of Light acknowleges Paris as important cultural hub of Europe or even the world. It's less related to the ever-changing political situation of France in the past so in my opinion it can represent the country much batter as a unity.
 
Isn't the City Of Light powerful from the start?

No. It requires either GW-hosting wonder in the capital or waiting till museum - the first building with 2 GW slots. Additionally, writers guild is not instant and you need 2 wait before you get 2 great writers appear.

I'd say they will not get their bonuses at least till medieval.
 
Well we shouldn't confuse Chateau and Chateau fort... The defensive bonus argument works best for the latter and is already in the game as castle anyway
 
Well France has always been a major power, though never really the strongest - even the tiny Dutch defeated them on several occasions. It wasn't until Napoleon when they dominated the rest of Europe.

France had had massive amount of influence before Napoleon. Charlemagne & Louis XIV had conquered large portions of western Europe and French was the language of diplomacy for quite some time. If memory serves me correct the royalty of Tsarist Russia learned French before they learned Russian.
 
Well we shouldn't confuse Chateau and Chateau fort... The defensive bonus argument works best for the latter and is already in the game as castle anyway

Quite. The Château as represented in the game clearly refers to the type of 'castles' that ceased to be used as fortresses and were instead basically palaces.

I'm cool with the changes to France. In fact, I can't wait to play them. Historically, French culture has been at least as important globally as French military might (not that the two didn't go hand in hand; they often did), and France is a major centre of tourism nowadays.
 
France had had massive amount of influence before Napoleon. Charlemagne & Louis XIV had conquered large portions of western Europe and French was the language of diplomacy for quite some time. If memory serves me correct the royalty of Tsarist Russia learned French before they learned Russian.

Charlemagne wasn't really 'French' as we understand the term - this has been discussed elsewhere on the forums, so I won't go into detail here. Of course, the French like to think of him as French... but then the Germans like to think of him as German. See also the medieval literature of both countries. It's complicated.

Your point about language is an important one, and if anything supports what I've said in the post above this one about French culture having more global impact than French military exploits. The Norman Conquest (which we can attribute to the Normans rather than the French) ensured that England had an almost entirely Francophone aristocracy for several hundred years, which had a lot to do with French becoming such an important and widely-spoken language across Europe during the medieval period, but it wasn't until the fifteenth century that France even managed to unite itself - never mind conquering other people. Yet well before then the French Court was a centre of culture, Paris was the most important university in northern Europe; French fashions were emulated by the rest of Europe; Gothic architecture was developed in France; polyphonic music was developed in France... I could go on. France did have a lot of influence before Napoleon, but I don't think this had much to do with its military exploits. I think it's quite right that the game reflects this instead of making them an entirely military-focused Civ.
 
France had had massive amount of influence before Napoleon. Charlemagne & Louis XIV had conquered large portions of western Europe and French was the language of diplomacy for quite some time. If memory serves me correct the royalty of Tsarist Russia learned French before they learned Russian.

The aristocracy actually preferred French over Russian and would communicate with each other in French. They saw Russian as "barbaric" to the point that some refused to learn it.
 
Charlemagne wasn't really 'French' as we understand the term - this has been discussed elsewhere on the forums, so I won't go into detail here. Of course, the French like to think of him as French... but then the Germans like to think of him as German. See also the medieval literature of both countries. It's complicated.

Your point about language is an important one, and if anything supports what I've said in the post above this one about French culture having more global impact than French military exploits. The Norman Conquest (which we can attribute to the Normans rather than the French) ensured that England had an almost entirely Francophone aristocracy for several hundred years, which had a lot to do with French becoming such an important and widely-spoken language across Europe during the medieval period, but it wasn't until the fifteenth century that France even managed to unite itself - never mind conquering other people. Yet well before then the French Court was a centre of culture, Paris was the most important university in northern Europe; French fashions were emulated by the rest of Europe; Gothic architecture was developed in France; polyphonic music was developed in France... I could go on. France did have a lot of influence before Napoleon, but I don't think this had much to do with its military exploits. I think it's quite right that the game reflects this instead of making them an entirely military-focused Civ.

You have to take a pretty narrow view of what it means to be French to write something like that. Charlemagne was as French as Albert the Great was English: he was born in what is today France, and spoke what was then French, just as Albert was born in England and spoke English (or Ænglisc). That it took the "French" a long time to unite themselves as you suggest doesn't mean they weren't a major power (when was the Act of Union between England and Scotland?), only that it took several centuries for Northern France to assert itself over Burgundy and the Anglo-Norman possessions. That France was a major power is clear in that 1. they could call upon more heavy cavalry than any other regional power in the Middle Ages, 2. nearly all the first-generation Crusaders were French.
 
I think the changes to France are interesting, but I agree with some here that their UA should reflect their heritage as a military power. France isn't quite so strong now, but was perhaps the greatest European power throughout the middle ages and into the Renaissance. It wasn't until Britain defeated the Spanish Armada and later Napoleon that they became the masters of Europe (and I would say the World, but I'm sure some would disagree). Before this, France was dominant. France's culture is something that needed to be captured as well, as perhaps the most culturally significant nation in Europe since Rome. However, I suppose this is the difficulty that arises in trying to reflect the nature of an entire nation/civilization in three unique attributes.
 
I hope we haven't seen the entirety of the French UA... I think their palace getting 2 slots instead of 1 would round it out nicely and make it very useful. As it is now, it takes a long time to kick in and it only affects your capital. Not sure how powerful a double theming bonus might be, but as the UA stands now, it had better be pretty powerful.
 
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