Landmark Improvements Could Use A Buff

Gidoza

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In my most recent game I was on my Archeological Dig spree, and in one case I replaced a Brazilwood Camp in the vicinity of a city I had conquered with an Archaeological Dig. Once I picked the Landmark Improvement, this is really the first time it hit me just how underwhelming the Landmark Improvements actually are - and after some comparing and contrasting, I'm having some difficulty justifying their use at all (and this particular Dig was Classical, and thus one of the larger bonuses).

First off, the Brazilwood Camp itself was providing more culture than the Dig, which already eliminates the purpose of the Dig - and this is not counting the food, gold, research, etc. that the old tile was providing.

When comparing a Dig to a standard Farm, Mine, or otherwise - while none of the latter provide culture, the overall output of other things is undeniably superior to the output of the Landmark itself.

Thirdly, while the Landmark does provide superior culture to an Artifact, the Artifact nonetheless provides enough culture (especially with potential bonuses) that the difference in culture output is trivial, PLUS the Artifact produces Tourism, PLUS this is done without the need to employ a citizen on a tile.

I don't know about you, but Landmarks in CBP at the moment strike me as being one step short of pointless. The fact of the matter is that in their own way, they are a "resource" tile - the sort of tile that ought to be important enough to always be worked by a citizen. But it isn't. So, some thoughts on this...

1. Double the culture output from Landmarks?

2. Add a Tourism benefit to Landmarks? (Realistic, as people even in our day go to Egypt for example to visit the Pyramids and other such digs.)

3. Tourism instead of culture at Landmarks? (I'm not such a fan at this one.)


In any case, my point is that it would be nice to default to a Landmark in my own territory unless I critically need the Artifact in question for a theming bonus of some kind. Culture worked from tiles is unique - it would certainly be neat to have a reason to capitalize on it more often.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
 
This might be hard to implement but what about some type of scaling related to your Tourism? Maybe landmarks get a boost to culture output that is equal to some X% of your tourism. Or vice versa, a boost to tourism that is some Y% of your culture.

Or maybe buff Hotels and Airports to give Landmarks in that city (or maybe all Landmarks?!) some bonus to culture or tourism. This could scale with some percentage as well.

Either of these ideas would encourage diversifying between landmarks and artifacts which might give more interesting decisions in the long run.
 
First off, the Brazilwood Camp itself was providing more culture than the Dig, which already eliminates the purpose of the Dig - and this is not counting the food, gold, research, etc. that the old tile was providing.
So you are comparing an UI (culture-based, on top of that) to the generic improvement, and turns out UI is better? The sky is blue, no less.
When comparing a Dig to a standard Farm, Mine, or otherwise - while none of the latter provide culture, the overall output of other things is undeniably superior to the output of the Landmark itself.
Culture yield is a relatively rare yield by itself so the "overall output" doesn't matter.
Thirdly, while the Landmark does provide superior culture to an Artifact, the Artifact nonetheless provides enough culture (especially with potential bonuses) that the difference in culture output is trivial, PLUS the Artifact produces Tourism, PLUS this is done without the need to employ a citizen on a tile.
What are these "potential bonuses"? Landmark can have up to 10 culture from a tile, how can an Artifact with the base of 1 culture 2 tourism be compared to that?
2. Add a Tourism benefit to Landmarks? (Realistic, as people even in our day go to Egypt for example to visit the Pyramids and other such digs.)
3. Tourism instead of culture at Landmarks? (I'm not such a fan at this one.)
Did you even read the in-game descriptions of Hotel and the likes? They already provide Tourism.
 
I really agree, I used to Landmark everything within workable range, but lately I've found myself replacing landmarks with farms because they just aren't very useful unless you're going for freedom.
Even landmarks from ancient era feels underwhelming compared to just grabbing the artifact and getting a museum bonus.
 
So only Freedom gives bonuses to Landmarks?

Creative Expression: +1 Culture from Great Works. Culture buildings that can hold Great Works provide +1 Culture. (Well the Artifact)

New Deal: Great Person improvements (and Landmarks) provide +4 value of the appropriate yield.


Maybe these Policies could benefit:

Order: Socialist Realism: Receive a free Museum in every City.

Party Leadership: +2 Food, Production, Science, Gold, and Culture per city.


Autocracy: Cult of Personality: +50% Tourism to civilizations fighting a common enemy. A Great Person of your choice appears near your Capital.

Futurism: +250 Tourism with all known civs when a Great Person is born.
 
in Vanilla culture outputs from tile improvement were very scarce, making the landmark a worthwhile thing. this mod evolved the game, but left landmarks obsolete now that culture is far easier to come by.

I agree, landmarks need a looking at.
 
I think instead of just buffing landmarks though, we should think about how to make the decision between landmarks and artifacts more interesting.

Maybe something like landmarks provide more culture but also give a tourism boost against cities that are within X tiles of the landmark. Or maybe a (small) combat bonus to nearby units, in a similar fashion to maois.

I think my earlier suggestion (where landmark culture scales to tourism or vice versa) might be easier to code and to balance but I'm just throwing some ideas out there.
 
I think instead of just buffing landmarks though, we should think about how to make the decision between landmarks and artifacts more interesting.

Maybe something like landmarks provide more culture but also give a tourism boost against cities that are within X tiles of the landmark. Or maybe a (small) combat bonus to nearby units, in a similar fashion to maois.

I think my earlier suggestion (where landmark culture scales to tourism or vice versa) might be easier to code and to balance but I'm just throwing some ideas out there.

I think a culture boost is fine. proximity stuff is frustrating because you can't control where sites appear (also the AI would be a bear to teach). Not all civs have a UI that gives culture, so the landmark still has a role. Just needs a bump.

G
 
I don't think ideologies besides Freedom should give bonus to Landmarks.
This other crazy things suggested are also not interesting, too complicated.

For me the problem about Landmarks is that they only get bonus too late, at Information Era, +4 total Culture from Telecommunications + Satellites.
Looks like with it you'll have 11 Culture from an Ancient Era Landmark (15 Culture with New Deal - Freedom)

I suggest changing they base Culture output by 1 or 2, making Aesthetics - National Treasure give them +2 Culture and reducing the bonus from Telecommunication + Satellites. Maybe +1 from each of these techs or +2 from one of them and none from the other.
Maybe instead of changing they base output just bring one of the +2 bonus from tech to an early one.

PS: I know that Landmarks get +1 Culture per era.

EDIT:
So you are comparing an UI (culture-based, on top of that) to the generic improvement, and turns out UI is better? The sky is blue, no less.
Actually aren't any Science UI better than Academies, same is true for Citadels, Holy Sites, Manufactories and Towns. Why should exist a Culture UI better than Landmarks? mainly with Landmarks being specific for a resource.
 
in Vanilla culture outputs from tile improvement were very scarce, making the landmark a worthwhile thing. this mod evolved the game, but left landmarks obsolete now that culture is far easier to come by.

I agree, landmarks need a looking at.

I think this captures the problem pretty well. Landmarks just aren't unique anymore.
 
Maybe a lump sum of Culture or Tourism when you complete a Landmark?

Or add a small amount of Science and Gold to the tile yield, since it's apparently a significant archeological site. They probably have a visitors' center and a gift shop.
 
Maybe a lump sum of Culture or Tourism when you complete a Landmark?

Or add a small amount of Science and Gold to the tile yield, since it's apparently a significant archeological site. They probably have a visitors' center and a gift shop.

It's now going to get gold per era (like the culture mechanism) and a +1 base culture. Should make it a bit more appealing if you don't care about raw tourism from the artifact.

G
 
It's now going to get gold per era (like the culture mechanism) and a +1 base culture. Should make it a bit more appealing if you don't care about raw tourism from the artifact.

Just moving the existing tech-related bonuses to landmarks earlier would be fine.
 
Just moving the existing tech-related bonuses to landmarks earlier would be fine.

Why not both? Landmarks aren't super common and require a fair bit of effort anyway so making them more accessible could be good.
 
...the overall output of other things is undeniably superior to the output of the Landmark itself.

Who told you that's undeniable?

What's 5 food from a farm going to give you late game? Another citizen in 50 turns?

A landmark can bump your culture/citizen up enough and save you 1 happiness. If you aren't above 10 happiness, +1% of total beakers/culture is probably more than any one tile can give you.

Or it can give you 400 culture in the same 50 turns that a farm would take to generate a citizen, and maybe shave a turn off a big policy. That policy from order that gives +2 yields per city can sometimes give you more in one turn than that citizen would do for the remainder of the game. There are other policies that this would be true for as well.

...my point is that it would be nice to default to a Landmark in my own territory...

Yes, because having one option be superior to another 90% of the time is clearly what this mod is about.
 
Who told you that's undeniable?

What's 5 food from a farm going to give you late game? Another citizen in 50 turns?
Ability to run another specialist? :D

Also, my farms tend to give a lot more than 5 food :D


I'm not going to say that you're wrong here, some landmarks are fine. By the time you start building them they are at 1-4 culture, and while the 4 culture landmarks aren't terrible, 1 and 2 culture ones are horrible, and 3 imho aren't worth working either. Also in all of these situations you're better off collecting them for Museum theming-bonuses, which is kinda boring.
 
Ability to run another specialist? :D

Also, my farms tend to give a lot more than 5 food :D

Really, what I'd like to see is every other tile improvement being as good as the farm. farms, mines, and quarries are the best improvements in the game, to the point where I sometimes I don't know where to put a manufactory or academy, as the opportunity cost is a bit dubious. Desert and Tundra tiles? Spots between two resources where a farm can't touch other farms?
 
sometimes I don't know where to put a manufactory or academy, as the opportunity cost is a bit dubious.

i'll often put them on cattle/horses if im not playing a game that has pasture bonuses. remember they can go on resources too, just not luxury resources =)

A holy site over Cows for the Indian Civ? obviously.
 
But then you don't get the extra production from the stables :/
I think every strategic resources get a bonus from their normal improvements (forge for mines, stable for horses, ...), don't they ?
 
i'll often put them on cattle/horses if im not playing a game that has pasture bonuses. remember they can go on resources too, just not luxury resources =)

A holy site over Cows for the Indian Civ? obviously.

Actually placing GIs on luxuries connect the resource now, so settling academies on planationbased luxuries are fine.
 
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