Landmarks discussion

[tu_79]

Putting a big landmark boost on the finisher of the 3 Industrial trees is not a bad idea at all. I would do them a bit differently though. How about this:

Landmark:
+3 on Construction
11 base yields
+11 for every era between the era of the ruin and the current era
+3 from Museums (Museums act as interpretive centers for landmarks. Add bonus like factories/stock market/research lab do for GPTIs)
+22 from Industry Finisher
+22 from Rationalism Finisher
+22 from Imperialism Finisher
Remove +33 from Artistry Finisher

So all finishers get a global yield and a local yield, and culture is moved to a building boost. I think Museums could use some added utility anyways. I'd also like to add 1 level of 11 era yields as a guaranteed base yield, so the fluctuation between an ancient vs a medieval landmark is not so stark. I would personally like the era scaler to stay as it is for function, and not change the mechanic.

I think revealing hidden antiquity sites is a big enough bonus for Artistry. I would rather see something else take that bonus' place if the Industrial trees each got an effect of their own.

Rationalism needs food for the focus on specialists but I question whether they need more science.
Industrialism has many proportional bonuses, but low raw culture and science.
Imperialism already has food and production.

So I'd rather have for finishers:
Rationalism +5 food
Imperialism +3 culture
Industrialism +3 science

 

[Bromar1]

+11 for every era between the era of the ruin and the current era

I really think that the scaling should be based on just the current era or dropped altogether. Landmarks are too random already since you can't choose where they appear. Just make all your landmarks in your territory have the same amount of culture, it is much more straightforward

 

[Gazebo]

Sorry I didn't mean drop culture altogether, just drop the scaler, so all landmarks have the same flat culture.

What about this:

All foreign built landmarks give +1 happiness
Imperialism:
+1 supply +2 happiness from domestic
+4 happiness from foreign landmarks built in non-enemy lands

Industry:
+6 gold and production from domestic
+3 gold, science, culture from trade routes to civs with your landmarks (or maybe +2 and make it stack for every landmark?)

Rationalism:
+4 food and science from domestic
+2% gold and culture for every unique civ (major or minor) that has your landmarks, capping at 7 landmarks

@Gazebo is it possible to differentiate between foreign landmarks in enemy or friendly lands? Or landmarks in vassal or allied city state territory?

No, landmarks have no defining values like that.

G

 

[tu_79]

Let's keep it simple, if possible.
A fixed base culture value is enough for the un buffed landmark. The randomness on the artifacts based on era is good for themeing, but not for landmark base values. If you want to add a flavor based on era make it with something not fixed to the tile, maybe the happiness gained (1 to 4 happiness depending on era).
And then buff them with the industrial policy finishers, as discussed, plus religious beliefs and world congress enactment.
This way everything is in sight and predictable.

 

[Bromar1]

No, landmarks have no defining values like that.

G

What about for trade routes? Like +x yields for trade routes to Civs with your landmarks?

 

[BiteInTheMark]

My opinion to the discussed points:
1. Influence of the age to landmarks: I dont think the effect of the age adds anything of worth to the game, the appearance of the dig sites is already random enough. The dig sites should have different ages, to create artifacts from different ages, but it shouldnt have any effect to the landmark.
2. Scaling effect: The moment of the creation of the landmark shouldnt play any role, what matters, is the time you are in, cause more people can visit it and its cultural influence can spread more.
3. Bonus of foreign creation: Gaining happiness for creating it in foreign lands isnt a bad idea, but I think there can be other solutions

My suggestion:
1/ +1/ per era (5/ in industrial)
+2 // by Artistry finisher
+3 and +1 per era by Rationalismn (scientist purchase and food for specialists)
+3 and +1 per era by Imperialismn (unaffected yield by puppets)
+3 and +1 per era by industry (faster tech progress for better use of massiv gold gain)
+1 and +150 random GPP in capital for every landmark constructed in foreign lands

Other buffs to landmarks gets slightly nerfed to compensate the increased yields from landmarks

 

[Gazebo]

What about for trade routes? Like +x yields for trade routes to Civs with your landmarks?

Data is not stored. So no.

G

 

[pineappledan]

No love for my +3 from Museums boost idea?

What about for trade routes? Like +x yields for trade routes to Civs with your landmarks?

Too complicated, and a ton of new code. I don't even think it would be fun; it would just be needlessly, overwhelmingly complex.

I really don't see any use for making this so complicated. Just add some more yields to landmarks using existing methods, ie base yield boosts and boosts from buildings/policies. No need to reinvent the wheel.

I'm not absolutely stuck on keeping the era scaling as is, but I think the main problem with it will go away if it stops being the main source of landmark yields. With my Museum boost idea, the difference between an ancient and medieval landmark is 85 vs 63, plus policies/beliefs, etc. The difference becomes much more palatable if it's <50% of total yields, imo. It feels like change for change's sake from the existing BNW mechanic, and then G has to rummage through vanilla code or make a new yields table for a miniscule adjustment to an existing mechanic

I really think the artistry finisher boost should go... I've also had an experience with quick CV wins lately. Boosting the output of base landmarks should help a tiny bit, and a few people had suggested lowering the historic events instant tourism.
So what if instead of the +3 to landmarks, Artistry finisher gave +10% from historic events, and then base historic events was lowered by ~10%?

 

[Rekk]

Artistry doesn't need to be the one true path to CV any more than it already is, though.

 

[Gazebo]

I think just a base of 3 culture and 3 tourism is a fine buff.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I think just a base of 3 culture and 3 tourism is a fine buff.

G

I thought we wanted to make landmarks attractive to each victory type? The tourismn on landmark isnt really that necessary, I would link it with artistry and/or freedom, but not as base yields.

 

[pineappledan]

I agree with @BiteInTheMark. An easy 33 would be preferable because it gives more non-tourism related yields for people who aren’t focusing on a tourism victory. CV-focused civs can convert the tile culture eventually, or they can capitalize on landmarks some other way, but for non-CV civs, i’d Prefer to have a more useful yield

 

[CrazyG]

I think just a base of 3 culture and 3 tourism is a fine buff.

G

To do this is basically to declare landmarks primary purpose to be happiness.

You get 3 culture with great work or landmark, so yield wise all the landmark gains is 3 gold. Which is pretty insignificant compared to 3 happiness.

A common improvement such as a mine + a great work is much stronger yield wise. The choice between landmark and great work comes down to nothing but happiness.

 

[Gazebo]

To do this is basically to declare landmarks primary purpose to be happiness.

You get 3 culture with great work or landmark, so yield wise all the landmark gains is 3 gold. Which is pretty insignificant compared to 3 happiness.

A common improvement such as a mine + a great work is much stronger yield wise. The choice between landmark and great work comes down to nothing but happiness.

It's 3 more culture and tourism than currently, you can't say 'all it gains is gold.' It still gains the era artifact scaler, and the happiness buff. I think it's fine - they're not supposed to be uber tiles, they just need to offer a decent counter-value to artifacts.

Edit: furthermore, I don't see anything wrong with their role as a happiness bump. Happiness is generally pretty useful, it provides GAP if a surplus, allows for specialists, etc. We don't need landmarks to be a game-changing function, just an alternative to an artifact.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

To do this is basically to declare landmarks primary purpose to be happiness.

You get 3 culture with great work or landmark, so yield wise all the landmark gains is 3 gold. Which is pretty insignificant compared to 3 happiness.

A common improvement such as a mine + a great work is much stronger yield wise. The choice between landmark and great work comes down to nothing but happiness.

There is also the +1 / for every past era though, and potential /. Both and Landmarks will have an equal base of / basically, but the Landmark receives bonus yields and can be themed and don't take a to work, so they look pretty balanced to me.

 

[Stalker0]

It's 3 more culture and tourism than currently, you can't say 'all it gains is gold.' It still gains the era artifact scaler, and the happiness buff.

G,

So if I’m understanding you right, you are saying:

1) base 3 culture/tourism/gold.
2) +1 culture /tourism per era difference.
3) +3 happiness
4) same WC proposal scalers

 

[CrazyG]

It's 3 more culture and tourism than currently, you can't say 'all it gains is gold.' It still gains the era artifact scaler, and the happiness buff. I think it's fine - they're not supposed to be uber tiles, they just need to offer a decent counter-value to artifacts.

I misunderstood you. Its 3/3 + 1/1 for era scaling, this is probably strong enough.

 

[Gazebo]

G,

So if I’m understanding you right, you are saying:

1) base 3 culture/tourism/gold.
2) +1 culture /tourism per era difference.
3) +3 happiness
4) same WC proposal scalers

I misunderstood you. Its 3/3 + 1/1 for era scaling, this is probably strong enough.

Yes and yes, I think so too. It is base +3c/t, not sure where you're getting the gold from?

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Yes and yes, I think so too. It is base +3c/t, not sure where you're getting the gold from?

G

Cause at the moment it creates +/ and scales with that. If landmarks generate +/, I have no real reason to build it, if I didn't go for a CV, cause I didn't care about the . (having picked knowledge through devotion would be an exception). This makes landmarks for other victory types even less attractive. And I thought we wanted to achieve the exact opposite.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Cause at the moment it creates +/ and scales with that. If landmarks generate +/, I have no real reason to build it, if I didn't go for a CV, cause I didn't care about the . (having picked knowledge through devotion would be an exception). This makes landmarks for other victory types even less attractive. And I thought we wanted to achieve the exact opposite.

Don't forget that Tourism isn't good for CV solely. Having better Trade Routes (because of your Cultural influence over the target) and possibly putting more Ideology pressure on your adversaries can be really useful, regardless of victory type.