1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Landmarks discussion

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by tu_79, May 27, 2019.

  1. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    Messages:
    862
    At that point in the game, if you haven't already been investing in tourism it's not really going to do anything. If you've been warring and diplo-ing all game with no tourism, landmarks are not gonna help you catch up. They definitely could help supplement or maintain your existing cultural influence but that's about it. Even the tech is not very attractive for non CV civs. A small drip of tourism (that requires lots of hammers) is not worth being late to military science, dynamite, industrialization, or corporations. In fact, for most wide play (that isn't already focused on tourism), rushing corporations is probably going to speed up your tourism faster.
    I want even the most focused domination player to have to pause and consider going for archeology, but often it is very easy to ignore until you need biology (which is arguably also a mostly tall friendly tech, hospitals aren't high priority for wide)
    I doubt a small tourism boost is going to be better than beelining flight or corporations.
     
    Kim Dong Un and pineappledan like this.
  2. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2016
    Messages:
    483
    Location:
    Hungary, Earth, M.W. Galaxy
    I only stated the fact that Tourism is useful, regardless of victory type (although obviously with different extents).
    I kinda disagree. By that time your core cities should be done with the important buildings so you can afford building Museums. And that can be a decent amount of Culture (which needs no explanation why is it good).
    The rest I mostly agree with.
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,885
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Honestly, I think Tourism could stand to be a bit more useful for other victory types. The :c5science: reward for influential with a civ is +6:c5science:. The :c5science: reward for a single tech that the target civ has that you don't is +4:c5science: per tech. It seems to me like getting influential is a lot more strenuous, and should be rewarded more than being 2 techs behind. This one instance pits a catch-up mechanic directly with Tourism's main non-CV reward, and it looks a bit silly, especially if you have gone for fealty, and that reward goes up to +6:c5science: for being behind in tech.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
    tu_79, Moi Magnus and Bromar1 like this.
  4. FaarmAnimal

    FaarmAnimal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2019
    Messages:
    67
    Agreed.

    All landmarks (regardless of age - leave landmark age in only for flavor) same bonus.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,484
    Location:
    Beijing
    This would just help snowballing civs. Civs that get high influence early on tend to do so because they have high culture and achieve historic events. We don't need to buff trade routes of civs with high culture. For such a big part of the game tourism is almost entirely bonus yields.

    Per turn tourism is pretty much totally insignificant until renaissance or industrial, or until artistry's policies grant some. Compare someone investing really heavily in tourism to someone who ignores it (but still gain tourism accidentally when he pursues culture). The difference isn't significant until musicians guilds or hotels. They both build arenas. One might get writer's guilds sooner and end up with one more great work than the other guy. I already make use of culture specialists when pursuing any win condition. The biggest option to change would to get some tourism from your religion, and I don't see how passing tourism beliefs when pursuing science or diplomatic victories is an issue. I already have a hard time winning science without winning culture first.
     
    Moi Magnus likes this.
  6. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,090
    What's the reason for instant tourism to be calculated off of a combination of per-turn tourism and per-turn culture? What's the ratio?

    Is the per-turn culture contribution also reduced by the number of cities (as per-tutn tourism is)?
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,885
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    A CV player isn't likely to maximize their bonus :c5science: because they want to use their TRs to reach civs that AREN'T influenced yet. Well, maybe influence over other civs could get some different bonus(es) then, because the current set of rewards isn't really enough.
    • :c5science: on trade routes to influenced civs (it's nice, but it's small)
    • Lose less population on conquering (basically no benefit; actually makes city harder to deal with because you keep high population but still lose all the infrastructure, so the city becomes a massive :c5unhappy: drag)
    • fewer turns of :c5angry:Resistance (Barely has any notiveable effect on gameplay)
    • Spies set up faster (if they are influenced then they are probably not worth putting spies into in the first place, so this is useless)
    • Cities might flip if the target civ is :c5angry: in revolution. (free poopy cities from the worst player in the middle of nowhere... This hurts as much as it helps)
    • Trigger :c5unhappy: in other civs with ideological pressure (an almost completely invisible effect unless you are the one being influenced, and people keep lobbying to tone this down anyways.)
    Some ideas for other bonuses:
    • 1 :c5citystate:WC vote for every influenced civ, like religious dominance
    • Lose less Infrastructure on conquering influenced cities (maybe 10% fewer buildings lost for every influence level)
    • Influence over an enemy civ makes them accrue :c5unhappy: War Weariness faster
     
    Bromar1, crdvis16 and vyyt like this.
  8. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,090
    Maybe move this back to the influence and ideology balance thread. The discussion somewhat petered out with happiness taking the forefront of everyone's mind.
     
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,484
    Location:
    Beijing
    What do you mean isn't enough? Isn't enough to what? To make me want tourism when I don't want tourism?

    I really think these ideas end up buffing culture, not tourism. Things which provide solely tourism without culture, such as hotels, still are weak with your suggestions.
    You also buff cultural victories, which already come first, and already can be won by accident (you made a post about this recently).

    Looking at the whole picture, you're making things more complicated and less balanced.

    I think its 50/50 of culture and tourism. For most of the game, this isn't much different than using just culture because tourism is generally a tiny number in comparison.

    I don't exactly tourism modifiers interact with it. I think the biggest strength of tourism as a win condition is that you get it basically for free by producing lots of culture, which should be something you already wanted.
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    7,558
    This is no longer fully the case. TRs give tourism to all civs now, so you don’t have to focus as much. You do want to ensure you get 1 tr to your tough civ to maintain the “i have a tr with you bonus” but otherwise you can enjoy the fruits of your tourism labor now... it’s wonderful!
     
    CrazyG and Revolutionist_8 like this.
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    7,558
    We keep coming back to the notion of making tourism more universally appealing, I myself have broached the the topic many times.

    At this point it’s a nonstarter to me. Tourism is a vestigial yield at its heart. If you wanted to change that, you would have to make some fundamental changes. But the simple truth is this...tourism just isn’t needed. Players play the game just fine without tourism, it doesn’t really add anything the game needs

    We have done a good job making tourism fun for players who are going CV...but you aren’t going to make a non cv player sacrifice another yield for tourism...that hill is just too steep a climb, fine for mod mod territory but not the core mod anymore.
     
    vyyt, CrazyG, Kim Dong Un and 2 others like this.
  12. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    Messages:
    862
    Wait are you sure? I thought only statecraft gave tourism to all civs, not just target civs
     
  13. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2018
    Messages:
    500
    Yes. This was done a while ago because you could completely shut down culture victories just by declaring war since per-turn tourism isn't enough on its own until Internet. Someone trying to focus you with TRs and Great Musicians? Declare war and they have no TRs, no Concerts, no Open Borders/Trade Route bonuses, etc., it literally made it impossible to win a cultural victory the peaceful way unless they were just going insane with tourism per turn. So now you get the TR tourism burst with everyone when a TR completes to any major civ; Statecraft just gives you TR tourism bursts with CS trade routes on top.

    I have thought that the tourism to other civs is lower than to the target civ, maybe it isn't.
     
    Civ Spies&Lies and CrazyG like this.
  14. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,090
    It's supposed to be half tourism to the other civs, which still incentivizes the culture civ to send trade routes to the hold-out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  15. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,090
    If buffs aspects of the game that culture victory cares less about. I don't agree with the WC votes, if only because that's truly the only suggestion that buffs CV and no one else.

    If this is truly the case, then culture needs to be much less influential. Tourism should be the driving factor for tourism, not culture.
     
    BiteInTheMark and CrazyG like this.

Share This Page